INS: Oh, those wacky Ba'ku

[T'Girl]

This is why I believe that after reviewing their previous decision, the Federation Council would deside to proceed with the relocation of the (fully informed) Baku and the harvesting of the particles.

From the Federations point of view it isn't (and never was) about the family feud of a little group of refugees, and alway about the health properties of the metaphasic particles in orbit of one of their planets.

^ But that was still the energy that was being generated from the Ba'ku home system.

No, the metaphasic particles are all through the brier patch, and not just around the ring planet.

The plan was to harvest the particles in the ring because they were already in high concentration there. But the star system did not generation the particles or their properties.

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[Shark]

Even in the movie it's suggested that the Son'a are only there because their life-extending methods are becoming in-effective. If all they wanted was revenge, they could've taken their massive super-powerful ships and killed the Ba'ku en masse rather easily.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ But then the Ba'ku wouldn't know that it was the Son'a who had beaten them, would they?

 

[FormerLurker]

This is why I believe that after reviewing their previous decision, the Federation Council would deside to proceed with the relocation of the (fully informed) Baku and the harvesting of the particles.

From the Federations point of view it isn't (and never was) about the family feud of a little group of refugees, and alway about the health properties of the metaphasic particles in orbit of one of their planets.

^ But that was still the energy that was being generated from the Ba'ku home system.

No, the metaphasic particles are all through the brier patch, and not just around the ring planet.

The plan was to harvest the particles in the ring because they were already in high concentration there. But the star system did not generation the particles or their properties.

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I haven't seen the film in years, but the impression I got was that the metaphasic particles were generated not by the Briar Patch, but by the rings, and that the Briar Patch formed because the metaphasic particles weren't the only thing the rings were throwing out. Is that in dialog somewhere, or just something I picked up from reading between the lines?

As far as the Federation Council is concerned, if they talked to the Ba'ku and were told the above, they would have reason to leave the rings alone, as once they're gone, there is a finite supply of metaphasic particles, which would be depleted much more rapidly that anyone would want. Far easier to request of the Ba'ku limited access to the planet, or even just the Briar Patch, to suit their purposes with the metaphasic radiation. After all, if the Ba'ku have been there longer than Earthmen have been in space, they have a greater proprietary claim to the planet than the Federation does.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Did this supposed advance group of people who managed to understand what Data is and how he works not realize the healing potential this planet would have on the rest of the galaxy?

Considering the state of the galaxy when they moved to the planet, they probably figured their desire not to be enslaved or just slaughtered outwayed helping the exanpasionist assholes living around them (aka the Klingons and Romulans) or the slightly less douchy neighbors farther out who spent most of their time trying to kill each other (aka what would become the federation).

 

[Shark]

^ But then the Ba'ku wouldn't know that it was the Son'a who had beaten them, would they?

The Son'a went to great lengths to avoid the Ba'ku.

 

[T'Girl]

Far easier to request of the Ba'ku limited access to the planet

First, it's a Federation planet, even Picard admitted this, so why would anyone request access from the Baku?

When the Sona wanted access, they went to the Federation Council. Otherwise why would the Federation be involve at all?

Second, under you idea (as I understand it) people would have to leave their homes and travel to the ring planet for a period of time. Wouldn't it be better for patients if the particles were collected and distributed to hundreds of planets, and many thousands of medical facilities?

Going to the ring planet for treatment would be like you having to move across the country to be next to the lab that produces your medicine.

Certainly more convenient to have the medicine sent to your neighborhood pharmacy. Yes?

 

[FormerLurker]

Only if that's all that's going on. If, on the other hand, you have a condition that can only be treated by a method that is only available at a certain location, you go to that location to get treatment. See cancer patients going to cancer treatment centers for example.

And as far as whether it's a Federation world or not, just because the Briar Patch is in Federation space doesn't make it Federation Proprietary territory. Vulcan is in the Federation. Do you expect the Vulcans to bow to Federation directives regarding how the planet is used?

 

[T'Girl]

And as far as whether it's a Federation world or not, just because the Briar Patch is in Federation space doesn't make it Federation Proprietary territory.

Alright. If the ring planet isn't Federation territory, and given that the Sona were originally from the planet, and given that we have see non-Federation species operating their starships in "Federation space" during the series.

Why was the Federation partners with the Sona?

Why was the Federation involve at all?

It was the Sona technology that created the collector ship. They were the ones dying and in need of the particles.

Why was the Federation involve at all?

My take is that the Sona approached the Federation Council to obtain access to a Federation planet, which results in the partnership. But if the Federation had no territorial hold on the planet, why would the Sona involve the Federation in the first place?

Why wouldn't the Sona just remove the Baku (one way or another) and harvest the particles? For those two actions the Sona had no need of the Federation's assistance. Again, we've seen non-Federation starships in Federation space.

So what did the Federation bring to the table, if not "ownership" of the planet?

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[Jeyl]

Considering the state of the galaxy when they moved to the planet, they probably figured their desire not to be enslaved or just slaughtered outwayed helping the exanpasionist assholes living around them (aka the Klingons and Romulans) or the slightly less douchy neighbors farther out who spent most of their time trying to kill each other (aka what would become the federation).

Uh, what's stopping that from happening anyways? Since this planet is so cut off thanks to the Briar Patch, how can this planet be protected or monitored? I'd argue the Federation going along with their plan would better suit the Ba'ku since they could be relocated to a planet that's further in Federation space and can be better protected.

Also... slavery?

 

[FormerLurker]

And as far as whether it's a Federation world or not, just because the Briar Patch is in Federation space doesn't make it Federation Proprietary territory.

Alright. If the ring planet isn't Federation territory, and given that the Sona were originally from the planet, and given that we have see non-Federation species operating their starships in "Federation space" during the series.

Why was the Federation partners with the Sona?

Why was the Federation involve at all?

It was the Sona technology that created the collector ship. They were the ones dying and in need of the particles.

Why was the Federation involve at all?

My take is that the Sona approached the Federation Council to obtain access to a Federation planet, which results in the partnership. But if the Federation had no territorial hold on the planet, why would the Sona involve the Federation in the first place?

Why wouldn't the Sona just remove the Baku (one way or another) and harvest the particles? For those two actions the Sona had no need of the Federation's assistance. Again, we've seen non-Federation starships in Federation space.

So what did the Federation bring to the table, if not "ownership" of the planet?

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Answer this question you deliberately left out of the quote above first.

Vulcan is in the Federation. Do you expect the Vulcans to bow to Federation directives regarding how the planet is used?

 

[T'Girl]

Vulcan is in the Federation. Do you expect the Vulcans to bow to Federation directives regarding how the planet is used?

By planet, did you mean the ring planet or Vulcan?

If the ring planet then as a Federation member with a seat on the council, Vulcan would of had a say in the original decision to partner with the Sona, remove the Baku and harvest the particles. If the Vulcan representatives didn't agree with the majority position of the Council ... to tell you the truth I'm not sure what their options would be. They could write a dissenting opinion, file a protest, something like that.

If you meant Vulcan (by planet), then it's a different matter. Vulcan is a sovereign world with a indigenous population probably in the billions. As a member of the Federation (based on dialog from Cloud Minders) any Federation directives couldn't over ride the Vulcan government's own local decision and directives. So, unless the Vulcan agreed, no they wouldn't bow or be expect too.

And as far as whether it's a Federation world or not, just because the Briar Patch is in Federation space doesn't make it Federation Proprietary territory.

Yeah, it basically does. Picard said the planet's in Federation space, followed by the Admiral saying (to the effect) yeah, the Federation has the planet.

Remember, Picard at this meeting was a advocate for the Baku, but when it was said the the Federation has the planet he didn't throw back at the Admiral that this wasn't true. And Picard at that time certainly would have, but he didn't.

He tried to invoke the prime directive, but was rebuffed with the fact that it simply didn't apply.

Picard then tried to delay by asking if his crew could look for another method of collection, only to be informed that Starfleet (they have other ships) had already studied the matter.

Picard then tried the ethics card, how many before it's wrong. That didn't work either.

Why would Picard try tactic after tactic if all he had to do was refute the Admiral's claim that "we have the planet?"

Two Starfleet officers, alone in a room, it's obvious who the Admiral was referring to by "we."

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[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Just because a planet is in Federation space, means nothing. There are inhabited worlds with sentient populations all over Federation territory but which are not members OF the Federation. (Malcor III from "First Contact" - the episode, not the movie - is just one example.)

 

[T'Girl]

That planet wasn't in the Federation, the Federation might have completely surrounded it (that wasn't clear), but the planet (probably the whole system) was not Federation territory.

No one (iirc) said it was a planet in Federation space, no one said "we have the planet."

The planet wasn't inside Federation space.

 

[FormerLurker]

^ Just because a planet is in Federation space, means nothing. There are inhabited worlds with sentient populations all over Federation territory but which are not members OF the Federation. (Malcor III from "First Contact" - the episode, not the movie - is just one example.)

My point exactly. The Ba'ku have been on the planet in the Briar Patch since before Terrans ever began to explore the galaxy. It is effectively their planet, regardless of where they came from. That gives them a proprietary claim to the planet, and all aspects of its existence. As they are a spacefaring race(whether they fare into space or not), Federation regulations give them sweeping control over how their world is used, and how they as a people are dealt with.

This puts them in essentially the same position as the Vulcans. Just as the Federation cannot come to Vulcan and do whatever they want with the planet without long negotiations with the Vulcan people regarding what they are even permitted to do, so the Ba'ku can make the same demands for how they and their world are treated with.

Once the Federation is aware that the Ba'ku know they're on a planet, and aware of what's out in space, because they've been there, the Federation, based on its own rules, has to defer to the Ba'ku in regards to what happens with their world, and the Briar Patch in which it resides.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Uh, what's stopping that from happening anyways? Since this planet is so cut off thanks to the Briar Patch, how can this planet be protected or monitored?

Because its in a shithole region, and thus likely not that desirable considering all the trouble people have to go to conquer it especially since the only thing of note on the planet is probably something that a race that lives at least 200 years and a race more interested in dying gloriously in battle probably wouldn't care about.

Hell Arik Soong thought it was a good hiding place despite it being in the Klingon database, which says a lot about how interested the Klingons were in the region.

And it was probably only fought over by the Klingons and Romulans becuase its a good place to hide a base or fleet, or just becuase the Klingon don't like the Romulans near their space.

I'd argue the Federation going along with their plan would better suit the Ba'ku since they could be relocated to a planet that's further in Federation space and can be better protected.

Considering noone knew they were there, or knew about any fountain of youth, or was that interested in the region until the federation showed up I doubt it.

Also... slavery?

Klingons and Romulans like to conquer people.

 

[T'Girl]

It is effectively their planet

Apparently not in the eyes of the Federation, they knew the Baku were on the planet and the Council did formed a plan with the Sona that included removing the Baku.

and a race more interested in dying gloriously in battle probably wouldn't care about.

A Klingon wouldn't care about being healthy and strong?

Considering no one knew they were there, or knew about any fountain of youth, or was that interested in the region until the federation showed up I doubt it.

Information's out now, who's going to protect the people who won't protect themselves.

 

[FormerLurker]

The Federation's plan for the planet changed once the Federation knew that the Ba'ku were a spacefaring race that had chosen to live in the Briar Patch, around the time the first negotiations to even form the Federation were scheduled. The Federation knowing the Ba'ku are a spacefaring race, well aware of their celestial neighbors and the relations between them, even though they don't care or want anything to do with them, is a fundamental change in how the Federation, By Their Own Rules, are allowed to deal with them.

Also, once the Federation Council was aware that the Ba'ku were aware of them, the deal with the Son'a was off. This was made clear in dialog at the end of the movie.

Finally, the Ba'ku have the ability to petition the Federation for protection, the same as any world within Federation borders does, whether they're a formally recognized Federation world or not. That's what Bajor had been doing for much of the run of DS9. The only exceptions there were when Federation protections would have made Bajor a target, either of the Cardassians, or the Dominion. If the Briar Patch, or any world in it(there may be more than one, that was never mentioned so we don't know) should become a target for the Klingons, the Romulans, the Borg or whoever, the Ba'ku have access to the means to defend themselves, and/or request aid at their own discretion. Just because they want to be left alone in peace doesn't mean they've forged all their swords into plowshares. I got the impression they had learned the difference by the end of the movie, anyway.

 

[Timo]

The only real problem here is the exact degree of knowledge on which the UFP based its initial decision to do business with the Son'a. Did they know enough to be guilty of ignoring their own laws and ideals? Or were they told suitable lies? Remember that the Son'a plan hinged on lies (it was imperative that the Ba'ku not be talked with, and the only way to gag them was to lie about who they were), and they were in a position to control those to a great degree. But not absolutely. So...

Dougherty supposedly "always" knew the Ba'ku were not natives. At least he feigns no surprise at the revelation. But the "revelation" is obvious to any casual observer anyway, as the isolated village could not be native. Yet there are dozens of scenarios by which 600 people might end up living on a planet in iron age conditions. Dougherty clearly knew which scenario applied here - but did the Council?

Or was the point here that the Son'a said "we know there's this fountain of youth (well, middle-agedness) here, and a mystery settlement of 600 people there, and it's your planet, so please observe like you so often do and find out who these people are, then gently relocate them, pretty please"?

They could leave the mystery open, which would make the Council quite receptive to duck blinds and whatnot. And the truth would soon be discovered "through Federation effort", after which the deportation plan could go ahead. Depending, of course, on which "truth" they "discovered".

There are probably several "truths" that would allow the Council to proceed with the deportation without having to break their own laws and rules. The easiest one (although known to be false to Dougherty) would be "no, they are not natives - but they have gone native in all this time <insert fake figure here to make the claim easier to swallow> and are essentially primitives now, and can be moved via the holo-trick without them spotting anything amiss". They are formally outside PD protection and ineligible as owners of the planet because of their history, but deportable in practice because of their current nature.

That takes some twisting and bending, but probably not breaking. And the Council would be well motivated to do the twisting in this case.

Also, once the Federation Council was aware that the Ba'ku were aware of them, the deal with the Son'a was off. This was made clear in dialog at the end of the movie.

I doubt that...

What assuredly would make the Council turn against the Son'a was spelled out: firing the collector while the Ba'ku were still on the planet.

What supposedly would make the Council drop the Son'a was implied in the scene where Dougherty has his change of heart (and gets killed for it): the Federation did not know of the family feud, and was operating on a totally false premise here.

That the Council merely learning that the Ba'ku had seen through the duck blind would make them cancel the deal is never indicated. When the duck blind falls, Dougherty still things it's all salvageable.

The message Riker is trying to get out, that of a "valiant struggle" on the planet, is something Ru'afo thinks will ruin everything, but Dougherty doesn't think there's anything to Riker's message that would be a showstopper. Ru'afo still browbeats him to stopping Riker - without revealing the true reason why the project can't be made a public hot potato. Dougherty thinks Ru'afo worries about a delay, and thinks that after the delay, the Council would still proceed - but in fact Ru'afo worries about an investigation that would reveal the feud.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[T'Girl]

The Federation's plan for the planet changed once the Federation knew that the Ba'ku were a spacefaring race that had chosen to live in the Briar Patch

Picard and his crew were the only ones who thought briefly that the Baku were native to the planet, and that didn't last long.

A simple scan would have shown that the Baku were different from all the other life on the planet.

Also, once the Federation Council was aware that the Ba'ku were aware of them, the deal with the Son'a was off. This was made clear in dialog at the end of the movie.

What we heard at the end of Insurrection was that the council was going to undertake a review, and not that the project was canceled. The only thing that had changed since the council's original decision is the information that the Baku and the Sona were the same species.

The planet was still a Federation planet, in Federation space.

Nothing had change concerning the health properties of the particles.

If the Sona (or more likely their people) could built one collector, then they could build another.

Most likely after the Federation Council's review, Picard would receive orders similar to the ones he got in Journey End,

Necheyev: Then your orders will be to remove them by whatever means are necessary. I understand your moral objections, Captain. If you wish, I can find someone else to command the Enterprise for this mission.

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