INS: Oh, those wacky Ba'ku

[Timo]

But we know they breed because we see a lot of kids in the movie.

Yup; it's just that their longevity negates all calculations based on the length of the human generation.

But this is all a bit moot anyway: why worry about 400 missing people? After all, we know for a fact that a group of Ba'ku left the planet in a huff!

No, they were exiled, remember?

There's no difference in practice, and definitely (the more trustworthy?) Sojef seems to be saying they wanted to leave anyway. They wanted the offworld experience, and from Sojef's viewpoint this meant they needed to overthrow the Ba'Ku rule and indeed attempted this (a claim Ru'afo doesn't stop to dispute). From Ru'afo's viewpoint, they tried to get the offworld experience and were exiled for that (a claim Sojef doesn't stop to dispute).

Clearly the two clowns come from different worlds altogether, despite sharing blood; we can't really say which version is closer to the truth.

But:The Ba'ku don't dispute this, indicating it is true.

I doubt we can infer that much. Sojef was prisoner to murderous maniacs; it's not as if he would feel compelled to speak up after being contradicted.

Debatable.

Which is why I love this movie, as opposed to those with straightforward plots or indisputable plot holes!

The So'na tried to take over the Ba'ku colony, but why would they try again if they now had their own colony?

They didn't try again, now did they? They had this plan where they would deny the benefits of the Fountain of Youth from the hated Ba'ku, either by deporting them or (far more probably) by murdering them all in the course of an "attempted deportation" (since the trick with the holoship would only fool genuine iron age simpletons, not the real Ba'ku).

The Son'a had their own star empire. They had military might, and had survived the biggest war in local history - while on the losing side! They really had no material needs. Which only meant the logical next step on Manslow's ladder, of indulging in revenge.

And as indicated by my mention of Picard, off-planet exile has a moral aspect that isn't acknowledged by the film, because exiling them from the home planet is arguably cruel, unusual, and unnecessary, and because it will cause them to die.

It's a fairly secondary concern at that point of the plot. I doubt Picard would have stopped to pontificate about mass rape at that point, either... Plus he had just been kicked in the balls about three times in a sequence for assuming way too much, and potentially mistaking the good guys for the bad ones or vice versa, even if the latest kick appeared to reset everything to the "pretty=good, ugly=bad" default.

I think the territory falls within Fed space rather than having been actively "claimed". There's all sorts of traffic through Fed space, and unless there's evidence the So'na have malicious intent they can't be stopped.

I'm sure that Starfleet would find malicious intent in these old enemies, regardless of whether there was any... They really are painted as the "Nazi Scientists We Can't Afford to Accuse or Not Hire" of the future.

Yes, Doughterty says "It would take ten years of normal exposure to begin to reverse their condition. Some of them won't survive that long." But considering Worf is progressing through puberty backwards, and GEORDI'S EYES HAVE GROWN BACK, this is obviously untrue.

Most of the Son'a claims in the movie are. And the interesting issue is, which lies were told to which parties, and how many of those were believed? Dougherty may have his doubts about the Son'a claim that a spa would be too little, but he does believe in the benefits of gathering the pixie dust and saving the entire galaxy with that, so he's unlikely to contradict his ugly and evil allies.

Based on the experience of the Enterprise crew, the So'na's decrepitude should reverse immediately and rapidly. I think it was just an error on the writer's part, rather than evidence of deception.

Why would that be? The entire plot was based on lies upon lies, resulting in several moments of revelation, only the very final of them turning out to be the actual truth. The more lies the Admiral and the UFP Council initially believed, the less evil they appear, and the movie works best if these people are not evil but merely misled. Just like Picard was.

Why don't the Ba'ku say anything about this then? Ru'afo's intention here is obviously to point out the unneeded harshness of the punishment compared to the crime, and no-one contradicts him.

Would you, at the gunpoint of an enemy who has just seconds ago revealed himself to be even more deranged than in your worst nightmares? The kid you once cradled and cuddled is the one trying to take your planet and your life?

You could make the same argument for removing a criminal's pacemaker. Doesn't make it right.

Why not? There's a very strong argument for "natural justice" in human history, and a basic tenet there would be letting nature take its course.

If the So'na hadn't been exiled from the planet, then there would be no need for revenge re mortality.

We have very little idea what prompted the original mutiny on the colony. I very much doubt there could ever have been a "nice" resolution to the events.

Fundamentally, we're still dealing with irrational luddites sitting on a treasure, and dangerously powerful aggressors who are hell-bent on vengeance in a family feud. Even if the original crime where somebody's ancestor stole the other guy's ancestor's bicycle were to be resolved to satisfaction, there'd still be a bloodbath.

And it's very difficult to tell whose side Picard, Starfleet or the UFP should be taking in the end. With such monsters everywhere, it would be easy to just brush them all aside, send them to those ah so effective criminal asylums, and take over the Ba'ku planet, for medical purposes.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[T'Girl]

You could make the same argument for removing a criminal's pacemaker.

To be a proper parallel, it would be removing a devise (from a criminal) that grants immortality and perfect health, and then replace it with a devise the provides a average life span and average health.

Doesn't make it right.

Depends on what said criminal did to be considered a criminal.

 

[Timo]

Perhaps relevantly, Dougherty says that metaphasics will double lifespans. Is that

a) another untested Son'a lie?
b) empirical low limit deduced from the locals being 300 years old when the average human(oid) lifespan is 150?
c) based on preliminary UFP research and verified independently of Son'a claims?

OTOH, Dougherty also speaks of immortality, supposedly as applies to the Ba'ku at least. Is that because living on the planet means you never die, while getting medicine derived from the planet's rings can only double your lifespan?

"Restoring" these squatters (didn't Klingons claim to own this place when the colonists settled, in the 2060s?) from 300 years of life to 150 doesn't sound like something the UFP Council should lose sleep over. "Restoring" them from literal immortality to 150 years would be more of an issue.

Then again, there are only 600 of them. Picard queries on when the number will become too high to accept. Well, the UFP Council gave the answer, as always happens in democracies: above 600, but not yet at 600. And no, I don't see why the Ba'ku themselves should have a vote - that's not how things normally go when people are relocated for common good in a democracy. They can have a say, not a vote.

Except the Son'a here apparently told the lie that the Ba'ku are primitives protected by the PD, meaning they can't even have a say, for their own good.

Except that anybody buying that lie would be a fool, as there can't exist a native iron age village of 600 on an otherwise empty planet. While the Council might have been lied about that, too, people like Dougherty and Data would know otherwise immediately after seeing the place. And the next layer of lies, "selfish colonial squatters who choose their own doom", shouldn't deprive the Ba'ku of a say.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Why don't the Ba'ku say anything about this then? Ru'afo's intention here is obviously to point out the unneeded harshness of the punishment compared to the crime, and no-one contradicts him.

No, it's just a statement of fact about what happened ("you exiled us") that gives no indication of the violence (or lack thereof) of their overthrow attempt, so there's nothing for the Ba'ku to dispute. You're just making an assumption that it wasn't violent because you want to paint the Ba'ku in an even more negative light.

And they weren't given a "literal" or figurative death sentence. They were simply returned to their natural state of being, and could still live long, healthy lives (which indeed they did).

You could make the same argument for removing a criminal's pacemaker. Doesn't make it right.

Where did I say that it "made it right"? You're changing the nature of the argument mid-stream. I made no moral judgments on the action of exiling the So'na, I was simply correcting the inaccuracy and hyperbole of your statement that the Ba'ku gave them a "literal death sentence."

The So'na weren't simply content with settling on the other side of the planet, they wanted revenge for their exile. They wanted the Ba'ku to age like they did

If the So'na hadn't been exiled from the planet, then there would be no need for revenge re mortality.

Again, irrelevant to point of yours I was rebutting, which was your implication that the So'na would be content with simply settling on another part of the planet and living out their lives in peace. Clearly that was not their intent, as they wanted to punish the Ba'ku for exiling them and harvest the radiation in the rings, rendering the planet uninhabitable.

Do you intend to shift the focus of the debate to something else each time someone disputes one of your arguments?

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Especially since the Federation can't fix some medical problems (like Geordi's eye sight),

So they had the technology to transplant fucking spinal cords but can't fix something that would be some what minor in comparison like bad eyes?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ To be fair, the thing with the spinal cord transplant was purely theoretical technology (up until it was used on Worf) and even then, was the work of one scientist who was considered a maverick risk-taker. So it wasn't a proven process when we saw it.

 

[Timo]

Also, it's a fairly trivial process to give Geordi LaForge eyes. Prosthetics better than eyes are what he chooses over real ones, though. And the VISOR is what he chooses over prosthetics that would look more like real eyes. The actual medical problem is with his optical nerves, which Pulaski says she "may" be able to regenerate. If that works, then normal eyes are merely a matter of punching the right buttons in the replicator.

LaForge was previously told that this (the regeneration part, apparently) was impossible, but we know that Crusher isn't much of a healer: Pulaski says she has already done it twice. But in turn we know that Pulaski likes her cures controversial.

The discussion (from "Loud As a Whisper") concludes with LaForge saying he'd be "giving up a lot" if pursuing normal vision. Obviously, he doesn't want to be crippled by such humiliating bodily inferiority when he can instead opt for the VISOR like any sane people. Even if this means continuing to tolerate a bit of pain from his damaged optical nerves.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[T'Girl]

So they had the technology to transplant fucking spinal cords but ...

Except they in fact didn't "had the technology," the patient died on the table, it was only that the patient was a Klingon that his system restarted itself.

It Worf had been Human the operation would have been fatal.

The 24th century Federation has several marvelous medical toys, but there are still many things they simply can not do. The particles from the rings would have added to their existing medical abilities.

.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The particles from the rings would have added to their existing medical abilities.

Maybe. Maybe not.

There is absolutely no proof that the process would have worked outside the Ba'ku home system. For all we know, it's unique to that location.

 

[T'Girl]

Problem with that is the crew of the Enterprise began to experience the low level effects of the disbursed particles within the brier patch cloud as soon as they entered it.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ But that was still the energy that was being generated from the Ba'ku home system. The Enterprise crew was on the edge of it, true, but it was still "native", as it were. We never found out if that radiation could ever be generated by purely artificial means. There's no indication that it could be.

 

[eyeresist]

But:The Ba'ku don't dispute this, indicating it is true.

I doubt we can infer that much. Sojef was prisoner to murderous maniacs; it's not as if he would feel compelled to speak up after being contradicted.

The Ba'ku are self-righteous space hippies, and in keeping with that archetype they should be speaking truth to power, not being deceptive and weaseling out of confrontations.

The So'na tried to take over the Ba'ku colony, but why would they try again if they now had their own colony?

They didn't try again, now did they? They had this plan where they would deny the benefits of the Fountain of Youth from the hated Ba'ku, either by deporting them or (far more probably) by murdering them all in the course of an "attempted deportation"

Revenge was an added bonus; the real point of the So'na plot was to secure the fountain of youth for themselves, in order to be really immortal rather than facelifted freaks.

Perhaps relevantly, Dougherty says that metaphasics will double lifespans. Is that

a) another untested Son'a lie?
b) empirical low limit deduced from the locals being 300 years old when the average human(oid) lifespan is 150?
c) based on preliminary UFP research and verified independently of Son'a claims?

I assume the third one. In their calculations, the Feds probably determined that the radiation would be used therapeutically to treat specific conditions rather than provide immortality for all, which given it's a limited resource might not be feasible.

 

[eyeresist]

Why don't the Ba'ku say anything about this then? Ru'afo's intention here is obviously to point out the unneeded harshness of the punishment compared to the crime, and no-one contradicts him.

You're just making an assumption that it wasn't violent because you want to paint the Ba'ku in an even more negative light.

You're making the assumption that it WAS violent, despite lack of evidence.

I was simply correcting the inaccuracy and hyperbole of your statement that the Ba'ku gave them a "literal death sentence."

How is it hyperbole? The So'na were immortal. The Ba'ku acted so that they would now not be immortal; they would die. That is a literal death sentence (as opposed to a legally-defined death sentence).

the So'na hadn't been exiled from the planet, then there would be no need for revenge re mortality.

Again, irrelevant to point of yours I was rebutting, which was your implication that the So'na would be content with simply settling on another part of the planet and living out their lives in peace. Clearly that was not their intent, as they wanted to punish the Ba'ku for exiling them and harvest the radiation in the rings, rendering the planet uninhabitable.

They only wanted to harvest the rings because they had been exiled. If they had not been exiled, they would not have tried to harvest the rings, because there would have been no need to do it, indeed it would have been self-defeating.

Do you intend to shift the focus of the debate to something else each time someone disputes one of your arguments?

Are you going to get into a huff every time someone dares to disagree with you?

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Why don't the Ba'ku say anything about this then? Ru'afo's intention here is obviously to point out the unneeded harshness of the punishment compared to the crime, and no-one contradicts him.

You're just making an assumption that it wasn't violent because you want to paint the Ba'ku in an even more negative light.

You're making the assumption that it WAS violent, despite lack of evidence.

No, I just said whatever they did must have been pretty significant for their parents to feel the need to exile their own children, children whom they still clearly loved judging by the ending. I think it was probably violent, though.

How is it hyperbole? The So'na were immortal. The Ba'ku acted so that they would now not be immortal; they would die. That is a literal death sentence (as opposed to a legally-defined death sentence).

I don't know that they are immortal so much as just extremely long-lived.

But it's still not "literally a death sentence." Words have meaning.

Again, irrelevant to point of yours I was rebutting, which was your implication that the So'na would be content with simply settling on another part of the planet and living out their lives in peace. Clearly that was not their intent, as they wanted to punish the Ba'ku for exiling them and harvest the radiation in the rings, rendering the planet uninhabitable.

They only wanted to harvest the rings because they had been exiled. If they had not been exiled, they would not have tried to harvest the rings, because there would have been no need to do it, indeed it would have been self-defeating.

Then what was your point in saying this in your opening post?

So'na's crazy evil plot not really necessary:
Again, it's a big planet with a population of 600. What's stopping the So'na from setting up their own colony elsewhere on the planet, and enjoying that sweet sweet immortality with the Ba'ku none the wiser?

They were already exiled, so it's not new information to you. So why are you acting like the hypothetical above was plausible when clearly they weren't interested in half-measures like settling on the other side of the planet anymore, and wanted revenge.

Do you intend to shift the focus of the debate to something else each time someone disputes one of your arguments?

Are you going to get into a huff every time someone dares to disagree with you?

No huff, just not a fan of trying to play on a field with constantly shifting goalposts.

 

[eyeresist]

I think we are arguing across each other, so I will try to make my responses as clear as possible.

You're just making an assumption that it wasn't violent because you want to paint the Ba'ku in an even more negative light.

You're making the assumption that it WAS violent, despite lack of evidence.

No, I just said whatever they did must have been pretty significant for their parents to feel the need to exile their own children, children whom they still clearly loved judging by the ending. I think it was probably violent, though.

But it's still not "literally a death sentence." Words have meaning.

Exactly. The So'na weren't going to die, then the Ba'ku handed down a decision that meant were going to die. The Ba'ku were instrumentally responsible for the So'na's death.

(Which raises an interesting question not addressed in the film: Have some of the So'na already died? You'd think the various stalls they have attempted would not work for everyone.)

They only wanted to harvest the rings because they had been exiled. If they had not been exiled, they would not have tried to harvest the rings, because there would have been no need to do it, indeed it would have been self-defeating.

Then what was your point in saying this in your opening post?

So'na's crazy evil plot not really necessary:
Again, it's a big planet with a population of 600. What's stopping the So'na from setting up their own colony elsewhere on the planet, and enjoying that sweet sweet immortality with the Ba'ku none the wiser?

They were already exiled, so it's not new information to you. So why are you acting like the hypothetical above was plausible when clearly they weren't interested in half-measures like settling on the other side of the planet anymore, and wanted revenge.

These are two separate issues:
1. The So'na want to harvest the rings because they were exiled by the Ba'ku. If the Ba'ku had acted more moderately and not exiled anyone, the So'na wouldn't have done what they subsequently did. So the problem of the So'na was arguably created by the Ba'ku.
2. Once in exile, why don't the So'na just return and settle elsewhere on the planet? That would be the easiest and most satisfactory thing to do; they could be immortal, and rule their colony in any way they saw fit. But then there would be no movie.

No huff, just not a fan of trying to play on a field with constantly shifting goalposts.

I don't think I'm guilty of such a thing. My points have been pretty consistent since the start of the thread. I feel like there is a problem of misunderstanding.

 

[Timo]

There is absolutely no proof that the process would have worked outside the Ba'ku home system. For all we know, it's unique to that location.

Also, the Feds allowed this all to happen because they thought it would benefit the masses. The Son'a would have had every reason to lie and obfuscate about the properties of the metaphasic particles, and given how they were the technologically superior party (or at least convincingly claimed to be), it wouldn't be difficult for them to derail UFP research on the matter...

Quite possibly, using the collector would have no beneficial effects whatsoever - it would simply kill the Ba'ku planet while the inhabitants watched from their orbiting prison. Despite the big machine, the Son'a would merely be healed to Ba'ku levels so that they could properly gloat.

The Ba'ku are self-righteous space hippies, and in keeping with that archetype they should be speaking truth to power, not being deceptive and weaseling out of confrontations.

1) That's really far removed from not correcting a choice of words by a madman holding a planet-sized gun.

2) Previously Sojef spoke his mind only when cornered, and shut up when Anij moved an eyebrow.

3) Sojef is an adult. Ru'afo is a kid, in the eyes of Sojef at least. You don't stoop to contradicting kids.

Revenge was an added bonus; the real point of the So'na plot was to secure the fountain of youth for themselves, in order to be really immortal rather than facelifted freaks.

I never got anything like this from the movie. Ru'afo was having fun having a revenge; heck, he was even having fun having his painful facelifts. But immortality? Bah, humbug! Just as pointed out, if he personally wanted that, he could have sneaked back to the planet at any point and healed himself, then gone to run his empire again, then returned for a weekend, etc. That'd be the low-risk approach, while the approach taken risks it all - definitely not the choice of a man who wants to live forever!

Really, trying to claim that the Son'a wanted immortality first and revenge second just gets us into unnecessary trouble. It's an unwarranted assumption we can easily do without.

These are two separate issues:
1. The So'na want to harvest the rings because they were exiled by the Ba'ku. If the Ba'ku had acted more moderately and not exiled anyone, the So'na wouldn't have done what they subsequently did. So the problem of the So'na was arguably created by the Ba'ku.
2. Once in exile, why don't the So'na just return and settle elsewhere on the planet? That would be the easiest and most satisfactory thing to do; they could be immortal, and rule their colony in any way they saw fit. But then there would be no movie.

The Son'a and the Ba'ku (or whatever they called themselves back then) were already at mortal odds with each other, probably just like any kids and their parents. There was major unrest on the planet, and never mind whether it involved nukes or harsh words. That's the root cause of it all. And because of this longevity nonsense, it just won't go away.

The Son'a would not need miracle cures to live forever: kids always life forever to start with. And Ru'afo never grew up. He's still the child wanting to kill his parents, only he's stuck on that mode because he never sees his parents and there are no ice cream moments or trips to the zoo.

OTOH, the parents never grow up, either, what with being immortal. Probably Anij should just have hugged Ro'tin more when he was a kid, but being clueless (for already being an adult), she thought she had time. It doesn't work that way, as the kids still grow up even under the influence of the metaphasics.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[eyeresist]

The Ba'ku are self-righteous space hippies, and in keeping with that archetype they should be speaking truth to power, not being deceptive and weaseling out of confrontations.

1) That's really far removed from not correcting a choice of words by a madman holding a planet-sized gun.

2) Previously Sojef spoke his mind only when cornered, and shut up when Anij moved an eyebrow.

3) Sojef is an adult. Ru'afo is a kid, in the eyes of Sojef at least. You don't stoop to contradicting kids.

I guess you realise these points contradict each other?
Anyway, with Star Trek I expect the good guys to be properly good, to speak the truth and dispense justice fairly. Not sure the Ba'ku qualify....

Revenge was an added bonus; the real point of the So'na plot was to secure the fountain of youth for themselves, in order to be really immortal rather than facelifted freaks.

I never got anything like this from the movie. Ru'afo was having fun having a revenge; heck, he was even having fun having his painful facelifts. But immortality? Bah, humbug! Just as pointed out, if he personally wanted that, he could have sneaked back to the planet at any point and healed himself, then gone to run his empire again, then returned for a weekend, etc. That'd be the low-risk approach, while the approach taken risks it all - definitely not the choice of a man who wants to live forever!

Really, trying to claim that the Son'a wanted immortality first and revenge second just gets us into unnecessary trouble. It's an unwarranted assumption we can easily do without.

Well, that's the thing. Apply logic to the story and it falls apart. And I don't buy that someone who was expelled from young-forever paradise and now has to have grotesque medical procedures to stay alive doesn't care about mortality.

(Another interesting point occurs to me: Sojef says "A century ago, a group of our young people wanted to follow the ways of the offlanders." But by Ba'ku standards, "young people" might include anyone under 200!)

The Son'a would not need miracle cures to live forever: kids always life forever to start with.

I don't know what this means.

Thanks for identifying the correct spelling of Son'a, by the way. Stupid alien spellings really p'iss me off.

 

[Timo]

I guess you realise these points contradict each other?

So take your pick. Although people are contradictory beasts, so all of the above probably qualify simultaneously anyway.

Anyway, with Star Trek I expect the good guys to be properly good, to speak the truth and dispense justice fairly. Not sure the Ba'ku qualify....

I never thought the Ba'ku would be good guys. They are adversaries to our heroes just as much as the Son'a, or Admiral Dougherty, or Data at the start.

What Star Trek movie has featured "good guys"? In ST:TMP, the heroes are their own worst enemy. In ST2, the Marcuses are adversaries through and through. In ST3, Kirk's own boss is a hostile force, and so's Sarek. In ST4, everybody from the US Navy to Finnish-speaking whalers are out to get them. Etc.

Well, that's the thing. Apply logic to the story and it falls apart.

"Apply a prejudice, cling onto that, and see that it just plain doesn't work" sounds more like it!

Free of false notions, the plot works just fine. And any ambiguities we can chalk up to everybody lying to each other anyway...

(Another interesting point occurs to me: Sojef says "A century ago, a group of our young people wanted to follow the ways of the offlanders." But by Ba'ku standards, "young people" might include anyone under 200!)

This concept is brought up earlier in the movie already, as a Chekov's phaser of sorts.

Anij: "We've always known that to survive, we had to remain apart. It hasn't been easy. Many of the young people want to know more about the offland. ...They're attracted to stories of a faster pace of life."

Basically, it's not a single occurrence but an ongoing problem for this uptight sect.

What bodily age would the "rebels" have been? The Ba'ku no longer recognize them, except through "something in the voice", but the wrinkled faces would take care of that anyway. Yet the word for them is "young people", in a society rather sharply divided in two by the onset of the metaphasic effect.

I don't know what this means.

You never were a kid? Mortality as a concept doesn't apply to people under twenty, although many have trouble recognizing it at seventy still.

If the Son'a rebelled at their "youth", dying would not have featured on their mindmaps.

Thanks for identifying the correct spelling of Son'a, by the way. Stupid alien spellings really p'iss me off.

Heh. That's the only one of the names with a spelling we could call "correct", as we see it on screen if we freeze-frame the library scene... All the others are just conventions at best, and I got Ru'afo pegged down as Rua'fo until this thread.

Can we hear the apostrophe in the names in any fashion, or is it where the aliens put their infrasound hiccup?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[eyeresist]

The Son'a would not need miracle cures to live forever: kids always life forever to start with.

I don't know what this means.

You never were a kid? Mortality as a concept doesn't apply to people under twenty, although many have trouble recognizing it at seventy still.

If the Son'a rebelled at their "youth", dying would not have featured on their mindmaps.

I meant I literally didn't know what you meant - "kids always life forever to start with"?

Now I get it. The rebels may not have realised what they were losing when they left, but they surely did a few years later. That's when they got angry at what had been done to them.
But instead of going home, they spend years as - pirates? Bits of them falling off while they try to extend their lives, and all the while designing some sort of revolutionary apparatus to harvest metaphasic energy. Then negotiating with the Federation to deploy it in the Briar Patch.

Why did they put themselves through that shit when they could have just gone home? Is it because they are both evil and stupid?

 

[Jeyl]

Did anyone bother to tell the Ba'Ku WHY they were being moved? Did this supposed advance group of people who managed to understand what Data is and how he works not realize the healing potential this planet would have on the rest of the galaxy? There is much more at stake than an old feud between one group and another.