INS: Oh, those wacky Ba'ku

[jaime]

His eyes totally regenerated, iris, pupil the lot. Then he goes back to the mechanical versions.
When he was younger treatment wasn't available.
It's not just his optic nerve that didn't form basically.
We do know riker was worried his emotions for troi would fade as they moved away, so it's not a permanent effect anyway.

 

[RAMA]

This is what the Baku are: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacGuffin

(I posted this in another thread but thought it might attract more reaction in its own thread: )


I watched Insurrection a couple of weeks ago, and the plot definitely has some major holes, specifically to do with the Ba'ku:

Population level and rate of increase:
The Ba'ku settled on the planet 309 years ago. They have a death rate of zero, and seem to have no qualms about having children, but the population is only 600. If they started with only two people (though the scripts says they started as a "group"), and each couple had two children every 33.3 years, the population would be 1024. Maybe there is a periodic cull they neglected to inform Picard of?

Do the Ba'ku really reject all technology or are they super tech savvy?
Despite the Ba'ku's rejection of technology, they would have needed technology to exile the So'na. Either using a ship to take them to another planet, or using a communication device to convince a ship to venture into the Briar Batch and pick up the exiles.
Also, despite the rejection of technology, they identified Data as a positronic device and attempted to repair him.
(See also their massive hydro engineering works, mentioned below.)

Ba'ku are basically jerks for their treatment of the So'na:
Ru'afo makes a fair point. They tried to take over the colony (no suggestion this attempt was violent), and in response were given a literal death sentence. To exile them off-world when there are no more than 600 humanoids on the entire planet seems unreasonable. Why didn't Picard point this out?

No reason for Federation involvement except it's a Star Trek movie:Why do the So'na need the Federation at all? The Briar Patch is a no-go zone that no reasonable person would enter. The Fed are new to the area (note Dougherty's line about not having fully identified the anomalies yet). There was nothing stopping the So'na carrying out their operation on their own - except that the plot required the Federation to be there.

So'na's crazy evil plot not really necessary:
Again, it's a big planet with a population of 600. What's stopping the So'na from setting up their own colony elsewhere on the planet, and enjoying that sweet sweet immortality with the Ba'ku none the wiser? Unless the space hippies have advanced satellites in orbit to warn them of such an incursion, and the tech to capture and exile them again...

Massive hydro engineering works so Data can turn a tap to reveal evil plot:
Finally: another inconsistency in the Ba'ku's rejection of technology - the massive hydro works that enables Data to lower the level of a large natural-looking lake by turning a metal wheel which is presumably attached to a massive concrete dam.

 

[T'Girl]

His eyes totally regenerated, iris, pupil the lot. Then he goes back to the mechanical versions

What could lead you to think LaForge went "back to the mechanical versions?"

At no point in Nemesis was attention pull to LaForge having artificial eyes, LaForge's enhanced vision was deliberately pointed out in the previous three movies.
.

 

[jaime]

What could lead you to think LaForge went "back to the mechanical versions?"

At no point in Nemesis was attention pull to LaForge having artificial eyes, which was done in the previous three movies.
.

But he does, the contacts are in. Its one of the things the rubbish director didn't grasp. He just didn't have much to do in Nemesis that we would notice.
There is also plenty of dialogue in Insurrection that outright states the effect wears off and people return to their natural state. Which in Geordi's case is blind. Its a defining point of his character.

 

[Timo]

There is speculation that people might lose the benefits of the radiation. But if that speculation is true, then this big reset button means there was no adventure in the first place - neither founding a spa on the planet nor sucking the rings into an eternal youth dispenser would help anybody.

Of course it's easy to accept that youth wears off, as it usually tends to do exactly that. But why should it wear off at an unnaturally high rate? Why would Picard instantaneously get twenty years older if the radiation turned his body that much younger? Why would LaForge's healthy eyes suddenly catch some horrid malady that exactly matches his childhood deformity?

Sure, plot magic can make that happen. But it should be an unlikely outcome given the movie premise.

As for the "defining point of his character" thing, that always sounded awfully cheap. "I''m a role model for the blind, so I want to stay blind!" is doubly false because the in-universe character is no role model while no out-universe blind watcher would be much inspired by the concept that somebody has a choice and chooses to stay blind...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[jaime]

There is speculation that people might lose the benefits of the radiation. But if that speculation is true, then this big reset button means there was no adventure in the first place - neither founding a spa on the planet nor sucking the rings into an eternal youth dispenser would help anybody.

Of course it's easy to accept that youth wears off, as it usually tends to do exactly that. But why should it wear off at an unnaturally high rate? Why would Picard instantaneously get twenty years older if the radiation turned his body that much younger? Why would LaForge's healthy eyes suddenly catch some horrid malady that exactly matches his childhood deformity?

Sure, plot magic can make that happen. But it should be an unlikely outcome given the movie premise.

As for the "defining point of his character" thing, that always sounded awfully cheap. "I''m a role model for the blind, so I want to stay blind!" is doubly false because the in-universe character is no role model while no out-universe blind watcher would be much inspired by the concept that somebody has a choice and chooses to stay blind...

Timo Saloniemi

And that's why he has the technological answer. He was literally named after a disabled fan, so I can't see them changing it.
I can see th 'spa' working as short term rehab or medical treatment, and who knows what they would do with the collected treatment. It sounds like space lithium.
I think it's pretty implicit that a 24 hour visit there doesn't reset the clock by x years nor miracle cure things the federation doesn't already have a miracle cure....isn't it established in farpoint that George could have had implants by then but sticks with his visor? And then there's the old genotronic replicator that knocks out Worf a new spine...

 

[T'Girl]

Geordi didn't lose his sight through a degenerative cause, he was born with a birth defect. Once the radiation from the rings corrected the defect, and Geordi left the area of the radiation, what would be the cause or agent of the return of the defect?

.

 

[Seven of Five]

For anyone that was interested, I found a free download of Michael Pillar's Fade In here.

It was given to TrekCore originally years ago, to be released freely as it was never published.

 

[jaime]

For anyone that was interested, I found a free download of Michael Pillar's Fade In here.

It was given to TrekCore originally years ago, to be released freely as it was never published.

Then pulled by powers that be despite it basically being something he passed on to fans when he died.
It's well worth a read. Should be used in teaching courses.

 

[jaime]

Geordi didn't lose his sight through a degenerative cause, he was born with a birth defect. Once the radiation from the rings corrected the defect, and Geordi left the area of the radiation, what would be the cause or agent of the return of the defect?

.

Because it's his original state, same as what happens to everyone else. Otherwise why would the Son'a age? Why wouldn't Picard use his new neo powers to stop Shinzon? Most importantly, why would Levar be back in contacts for Nemesis.

 

[T'Girl]

Because it's his original state

Yes, but once the correction was made and the birth defect was rectified, what would then change him into a sightless person?

Otherwise why would the Son'a age?

The Sona likely left as adults with perfect health, as soon as they were away from the radiation they began to age normally. Once Geordi was away from the radiation why would his vision naturally go away?

Why wouldn't Picard use his new neo powers to stop Shinzon?

It was Adji (sp?) that had the ability to slow time, not Picard.

Most importantly, why would Levar be back in contacts for Nemesis.

In which scene did we see (or hear) of Geordi having a visual prosthesis - there wasn't one. No mention was made of Geordi having a prosthesis device in Nemesis.
.

 

[jaime]

Yes, but once the correction was made and the birth defect was rectified, what would then change him into a sightless person?
The Sona likely left as adults with perfect health, as soon as they were away from the radiation they began to age normally. Once Geordi was away from the radiation why would his vision naturally go away?
It was Adji (sp?) that had the ability to slow time, not Picard.
In which scene did we see (or hear) of Geordi having a visual prosthesis - there wasn't one. No mention was made of Geordi having a prosthesis device in Nemesis.
.

Every single shot of him in nemesis he has his mechanical eyes back in. And in all the publicity images.
Look at the end when he helping data for a decent shot.

Adji teaches Picard to slow time, it's how he saves her during the cave in.

The radiations effect is always discussed as being temporary, it's part of the alleged justification for harvesting the particles.

 

[Timo]

Adji teaches Picard to slow time, it's how he saves her during the cave in.

And that makes no sense - if time were slowed from the POV of the victims, help would take an eternity to arrive and they would be ten times dead already. For each "real" second, the victims would have dozens of seconds to suffocate to death, or bleed to death, or whatever. We're probably supposed to think either that a) time was in fact hastened for the victims, despite the visuals, or that b) by slowing (the perception of) time, death was made more pleasant for the victims, who would have been rescued in (real) time anyway.

Yet in any case, Picard didn't do it. Picard just nagged in Anij's ear long enough to make her do it.

The radiations effect is always discussed as being temporary, it's part of the alleged justification for harvesting the particles.

The Ba'ku themselves never suggest that the effect would be temporary - much less that it would be magically reversed when the subject is taken away from the magic.

Nor do the Son'a make such a claim.

Nor does Dougherty - and if he did, he would be implying that by taking the Ba'ku away from their planet, he would be condemning them to a rapid aging that would make them look worse than the Son'a in a heartbeat. Clearly he is not thinking that this would happen, as he instead claims the Ba'ku would be returned to their "natural" path.

The only one who ever dares speculate that the effects would be reversed is LaForge himself, and he's being really tentative about it. We have no way of knowing whether he was right or wrong about this.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[jaime]

And that makes no sense - if time were slowed from the POV of the victims, help would take an eternity to arrive and they would be ten times dead already. For each "real" second, the victims would have dozens of seconds to suffocate to death, or bleed to death, or whatever. We're probably supposed to think either that a) time was in fact hastened for the victims, despite the visuals, or that b) by slowing (the perception of) time, death was made more pleasant for the victims, who would have been rescued in (real) time anyway.

Yet in any case, Picard didn't do it. Picard just nagged in Anij's ear long enough to make her do it.



The Ba'ku themselves never suggest that the effect would be temporary - much less that it would be magically reversed when the subject is taken away from the magic.

Nor do the Son'a make such a claim.

Nor does Dougherty - and if he did, he would be implying that by taking the Ba'ku away from their planet, he would be condemning them to a rapid aging that would make them look worse than the Son'a in a heartbeat. Clearly he is not thinking that this would happen, as he instead claims the Ba'ku would be returned to their "natural" path.

The only one who ever dares speculate that the effects would be reversed is LaForge himself, and he's being really tentative about it. We have no way of knowing whether he was right or wrong about this.

Timo Saloniemi

Natural path being aging at a normal rate. And I got the impression it was Picard slowing time inside the rocks, because that makes a minute of air last the hour it takes to dig through. (times are of course made up)

I never said their wasn't wonky logic, just that as presented, people knew it wouldn't last, including riker worrying about his feelings for troi being caused by the euphoric side effects. Which they weren't.

Inescapably, Geordi has mechanical eyes once more in nemesis.

 

[Timo]

Natural path being aging at a normal rate.

And? Why would anybody suddenly start aging at a superfast rate? By aging normally, Picard would stay twenty (?) years younger than otherwise; it would take abnormally fast aging for him to get back to his earlier biological age.

By the same token, by "aging normally", LaForge's eyes would remain perfectly healthy and functional. Something abnormal would have to happen for him to lose that health and functionality.

Sure, he has the techno-contacts again soon enough. But we know that he doesn't like normal sight - it makes him feel invalid. Whenever given the chance to choose, he chooses technology over normal vision. So of course he'd wear the contacts again over healthy eyes, after having tried out that sunrise and whatnot.

And I got the impression it was Picard slowing time inside the rocks, because that makes a minute of air last the hour it takes to dig through. (times are of course made up)

When Anij "slowed time" with the hummingbird, she and Picard experienced time in greater detail, "at a higher sampling rate", than usual - for every flap of the hummingbird wings, Picard had time to breathe in and out once (or at least Patrick Stewart did, even if the character wasn't supposed to). If Anij did the same thing in the cave, that would mean that her breathing rate would again be massively accelerated (against the benchmark speed of dust falling) and air would run out faster.

Naturally, Anij might have done the exact opposite, being smart enough to realize this is what Picard meant even if he himself didn't realize it. The sight of dust falling slowly (instead of at an accelerated pace) just needlessly confuses the issue.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[jaime]

And? Why would anybody suddenly start aging at a superfast rate? By aging normally, Picard would stay twenty (?) years younger than otherwise; it would take abnormally fast aging for him to get back to his earlier biological age.

By the same token, by "aging normally", LaForge's eyes would remain perfectly healthy and functional. Something abnormal would have to happen for him to lose that health and functionality.

Sure, he has the techno-contacts again soon enough. But we know that he doesn't like normal sight - it makes him feel invalid. Whenever given the chance to choose, he chooses technology over normal vision. So of course he'd wear the contacts again over healthy eyes, after having tried out that sunrise and whatnot.



When Anij "slowed time" with the hummingbird, she and Picard experienced time in greater detail, "at a higher sampling rate", than usual - for every flap of the hummingbird wings, Picard had time to breathe in and out once (or at least Patrick Stewart did, even if the character wasn't supposed to). If Anij did the same thing in the cave, that would mean that her breathing rate would again be massively accelerated (against the benchmark speed of dust falling) and air would run out faster.

Naturally, Anij might have done the exact opposite, being smart enough to realize this is what Picard meant even if he himself didn't realize it. The sight of dust falling slowly (instead of at an accelerated pace) just needlessly confuses the issue.

Timo Saloniemi

I didn't write the movie, that just seems to be what happens and what I remember from Fade In (the writing of book)
And with Geordi...I think it's safe to say those are meant to be his eyes now, as an upgrade from the easy to remove and tamper with visor. Otherwise every engineer in starfleet would be rocking them, and tricorders would be obsolete. Transhumanism is not well regarded in trek by the federation, except in medical cases like Geordi or Nog.
Those things in nemesis are his eyes.

 

[CommanderTrip]

For anyone that was interested, I found a free download of Michael Pillar's Fade In here.

It was given to TrekCore originally years ago, to be released freely as it was never published.

Thank you!!!!!

 

[CommanderTrip]

(I apologize if I put this imagine in here incorrectly, still new to how this all works)

This is a screengrab of Laforge from Nemesis. In Insurrection, when Geordi gets his sight back, his eyes are brown. Looking here, you can see his eyes are light blue/mechanical.

I agree the director of Nemesis just dismissed a lot of details and did what he wanted to do with the movie (or what he was told to do by the studio). IIRC, Levar Burton was quoted as saying the guy didn't know Star Trek or something like that. I do definitely remember Levar Burton stated once that Stuart Baird thought he was an alien in Trek X.

 

[T'Girl]

The radiations effect is always discussed as being temporary, it's part of the alleged justification for harvesting the particles.

I like this movie more than most, and have watched it several times, where was it said (or even implied) that the radiations effect were temporary? Yes, once away from the radiation you would go about your life normally from that point, but it was never said that the effects would simply disappear.

it's part of the alleged justification for harvesting the particles.

Again I don't remember this being discussed, the justification for harvesting the particles was so they could be used to help billions.

(and not just 600 people exclusively)
.

 

[jaime]

I like this movie more than most, and have watched it several times, where was it said (or even implied) that the radiations effect were temporary? Yes, once away from the radiation you would go about your life normally from that point, but it was never said that the effects would simply disappear.
Again I don't remember this being discussed, the justification for harvesting the particles was so they could be used to help billions.

(and not just 600 people exclusively)
.

Since I can't get round to watching it again atm or have time to comb through a script, let's agree to differ on that.

There is however, absolute certainty that his eyes are cybernetic in nemesis. Google his publicity shots since I have no idea how to link from my phone.