Would ******* ***** Make Good Weapons In Trek?

[Timo]

...OTOH, we don't know enough about the nature of shields to decide whether it would be better to hit them hard at one spot, or with the same hitting power but divided across a wider area.

Perhaps it takes a certain threshold amount of hitting power to make a dent at a specific location, in which case spreading out the power would mean wasting it. And if one thus needs to deliver 200 megatons to a specific spot, dividing it into ten sub-warheads is not a good idea, because then you have to do perfect targeting nine times out of ten to hit the same spot over and over again. It might even be that hitting the same spot repeatedly but with one-second intervals would be drastically less effective than hitting the spot within the same split second.

Now, we know that our heroes are in the habit of targeting specific areas of enemy shields and vice versa, and that shields can collapse in specific areas but remain up in others. But that doesn't yet necessarily mean that a spread-out attack wouldn't be effective, too - and indeed that's what seems to be preferred in "Yesterday's Enterprise". Only novels and tech manuals make reference to repeatedly hitting the same spot in shields for greater effect, AFAIK.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Kaziarl]

...OTOH, we don't know enough about the nature of shields to decide whether it would be better to hit them hard at one spot, or with the same hitting power but divided across a wider area.

Perhaps it takes a certain threshold amount of hitting power to make a dent at a specific location, in which case spreading out the power would mean wasting it. And if one thus needs to deliver 200 megatons to a specific spot, dividing it into ten sub-warheads is not a good idea, because then you have to do perfect targeting nine times out of ten to hit the same spot over and over again. It might even be that hitting the same spot repeatedly but with one-second intervals would be drastically less effective than hitting the spot within the same split second.

Now, we know that our heroes are in the habit of targeting specific areas of enemy shields and vice versa, and that shields can collapse in specific areas but remain up in others. But that doesn't yet necessarily mean that a spread-out attack wouldn't be effective, too - and indeed that's what seems to be preferred in "Yesterday's Enterprise". Only novels and tech manuals make reference to repeatedly hitting the same spot in shields for greater effect, AFAIK.

Timo Saloniemi

There was the episode of Voyager with the Equinox. the aliens moved from random targeting, to attacking one place. Seemed to have more negative an effect on the shields.

 

[Strider]

Would Cluster Bombs Make Good Weapons In Trek?

Yes.

Just ask the crew of the USS Kelvin.

Why in hundreds of years of Trek were these weapons never utilised by the Federation?

Because, as you use the term "cluster bombs" you allude to a type of weapon whose use is widely associated with war crimes. Cluster bomb sub-munitions have a relatively high dud rate, and areas where they are used become hazardous to civilian populations for decades afterwards. The effect they have in short term combat is miniscule compared to the calamity they cause on civilians in the aftermath.

Which is probably why only psychotic Romulan warlords like Nero actually use them. They don't do alot of damage (against 24th century targets, anyway) but they can bring a surprising amount of misery to civilian populations once un-exploded sub-munitions start falling out of orbit and landing on their cities.

Now that's just silly. You can't compare modern cluster bombs to the bombs that Nero was using. Even in the tiny probability that some unexploded bomb left over from the Kelvin battle was headed straight for a planet, you gotta figure it would take centuries to actually get there. It really doesn't compare to real-life where anti-personnel munitions are scattered in areas where civilians are located. Not even close.

 

[Itisnotlogical]

I think cluster bombs would be excellent against multiple small, fast attackers that would normally be much harder to hit with normal torpedoes such as Defiant-classes or shuttles or those little fighter things in VOY: Dragon's Teeth (sorry, been a while since I watched that ep, forgot their exact name). Instead of taking the precious time to line up a torpedo that might miss anyway or waiting to break through their shields with phasers, you can simply fill the area with as many explosions as possible. But against larger, better-shielded targets? Meh.

 

[Scout101]

that would probably work, if the targeting technology wasn't shown to be so advanced. It would also be a pretty big waste of torpedoes, as a "flack" style attack wouldn't work as well in the vacuum of space as it does in the air, or under water like depth charges...

 

[Timo]

Indeed, would a "dumb" cluster of, say, three dozen warheads score even a single hit against a Maquis-style swarm? In the school of thought that thinks Trek space combat is realistic and only looks unrealistic on screen, there'd be no hits from a cluster since the enemy craft would be several kilometers apart, no matter what the camera tells us...

Of course, the cluster need not be dumb. Each torpedo in it could be just as smart as a regular single torpedo is. But then we again get back to the question of whether a cluster of full-sized munitions is a cluster at all; if one can build a superweapon that launches dozens of regular (rather than midget) munitions at a time, then one is probably capable of building something smarter and more efficient than this superweapon.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Even in the tiny probability that some unexploded bomb left over from the Kelvin battle was headed straight for a planet, you gotta figure it would take centuries to actually get there.

Yet think of what would have happened over Vulcan if Nero hadn't destroyed it. You have
- Seven starships
- Three to six torpedoes to destroy each one
- Around 12 subminitions for each torpedo
That's 7 x 6 x 12 = 504 multi-megaton warheads flying around over vulcan. If only 10% of them don't hit their target, you now have 50 unexploded warheads floating around over Vulcan. Unless they shoot out into a sun-synchronous orbit, those warheads will either continue to orbit Vulcan until they hit something, or they'll wind up in unstable orbits and eventually crash into Vulcan. Much worse case scenario, unexploded warheads continue to float around in the debris of the wrecked starships, severely complicating rescue efforts.

It really doesn't compare to real-life where anti-personnel munitions are scattered in areas where civilians are located. Not even close.

Right. Since each of these warheads probably contains a multi-megaton warhead, it's a hell of a lot worse. Imagine if every WW-II torpedo that ever missed its target floated close to the surface after it ran out of fuel. After a year or two, they would begin to pose a serious navigational hazard along the atlantic convoy routes, assuming the tides didn't wash them up on New England and Florida beaches dozens at a time. Pack each of these torpedoes with enough power to flatten a small city... you get the idea.

 

[Saquist]

I've always liked the graser.

 

[LazyReader]

For what? Starfleet phasers on a galaxy class are shown to be able to drill into a planetary crust, Hell even the mantle; to say nothing of photon torpedoes which are antimatter weapons, and quantum torpedoes which are to photons what hydrogen bombs are to regular nukes; which possess . Even small starfleet ship like a Nova; already posses the firepower to depopulate a planet, and they can engage targets in FTL so a kinnetic impactor would be moving slow compared to low warp, it would be trivial to intercept and a waste of time to make.

 

[Turtletrekker]

For what? Starfleet phasers on a galaxy class are shown to be able to drill into a planetary crust, Hell even the mantle; to say nothing of photon torpedoes which are antimatter weapons, and quantum torpedoes which are to photons what hydrogen bombs are to regular nukes; which possess . Even small starfleet ship like a Nova; already posses the firepower to depopulate a planet, and they can engage targets in FTL so a kinnetic impactor would be moving slow compared to low warp, it would be trivial to intercept and a waste of time to make.

Dude. This thread is 12 1/2 years old. It's getting ready to enter High School.

 

[Unicron]

Yeah, I'm going to put this one back to bed. New threads for discussions are always welcome.