Why are the ranks so top heavy?

[David cgc]

IIRC, wasn't that the result of Jamie Bamber and/or Kandyse McClure requesting the two characters develop a relationship, knowing that Billy (Dee's original love interest) was going to be written off?

I don't remember if it was prompted by Paul Campbell deciding to leave the show or not, but the way I remember it is the writers' thought it up during the hiatus, thinking that as the voice on the other end of the radio, Dee would have a special rapport with the pilots, a seed of an idea that didn't end up having the slightest bit to do with what actually happened.

DISCO has really only four to five main characters, they certainly have room to add someone else or flesh out those glorified extras. Jet Reno is a great addition to the series, even though she's only recurring. Give us a Jet Reno at the conn, a character who has a personality and a point of view and can enliven the show instead of just nodding and pressing buttons.

It's amazing to me that so many people on this thread seem inexplicably opposed to making the show more interesting. Shrug.

You go watch any of the three episodes where Harry Kim was taken advantage of by space-babes and tell me again how obligating yourself to feature characters specifically because of their jobs will ipso facto make the show more interesting. Though, considering how Discovery burns through plot material, if that happened now, he'd probably be kidnapped by three different space-babes at once, which would probably be interesting in some fashion.

No one is against fleshing out the recurring cast. What we're wary of is featuring them without fleshing them out, relying on the fact of them having a stock Star Trek job making them interesting no matter what is written, plotted, or acted for them. We all would've been happier if the writers of Enterprise hadn't committed themselves to, say, Mayweather's space-boomer backstory before they realized they had no interest in exploiting his space-boomer backstory. Imagine if he'd been some one-off character that they could reuse or ignore as they saw fit.

The trouble is, Discovery season two seems to be going for inspiration from the '90s shows with how to "develop" the recurring cast, rather than "auditioning" them like TOS or nuBSG did and reacting appropriately. They should be using the bridge crew more, but not by jamming them into conference room scenes or away missions based on surprise backstory. Throw in a little more breathing room, give them some characterization, a weird hobby (or, like Sulu, every weird hobby), let them play a sport, and then see what comes out of that and if its worth having them do more than just nod and press buttons, or if it'll just be an episode of obligatory, keeping-the-actor-happy table scraps.

 

[Crewman6]

You're still not getting.

And you're not getting ME. I'm saying because they're already there, because they HAVE to be at least in the geography of the main action, at least physically adjacent to the major characters, why NOT take the time to make them interesting?

It's just dumb not to. Again, the analogy is that if there was a guy who sat literally next to Peralta in every single briefing room scene, you'd be like, "What this guy's deal? Why is he there for no reason?"

 

[MakeshiftPython]

They picked a core cast to focus on and leave any other characters as guest or co-stars.

It is unusual that the co-stars get elaborate make up because usually that was reserved for characters that had a story purpose, but one of the things I like about DISCO is that it’s background characters are shown to be diverse and mysterious in a way that regular human background characters never would have been. We now have the budget to show that diversity, contrast that to TOS where Spock was the only alien we actually see in the crew that’s supposed to be part of a federation of planets until TAS afforded to have strange looking alien bridge crew.

 

[Crewman6]

You go watch any of the three episodes where Harry Kim was taken advantage of by space-babes and tell me again how obligating yourself to feature characters specifically because of their jobs will ipso facto make the show more interesting. Though, considering how Discovery burns through plot material, if that happened now, he'd probably be kidnapped by three different space-babes at once, which would probably be interesting in some fashion.

No one is against fleshing out the recurring cast. What we're wary of is featuring them without fleshing them out, relying on the fact of them having a stock Star Trek job making them interesting no matter what is written, plotted, or acted for them. We all would've been happier if the writers of Enterprise hadn't committed themselves to, say, Mayweather's space-boomer backstory before they realized they had no interest in exploiting his space-boomer backstory. Imagine if he'd been some one-off character that they could reuse or ignore as they saw fit.

The trouble is, Discovery season two seems to be going for inspiration from the '90s shows with how to "develop" the recurring cast, rather than "auditioning" them like TOS or nuBSG did and reacting appropriately. They should be using the bridge crew more, but not by jamming them into conference room scenes or away missions based on surprise backstory. Throw in a little more breathing room, give them some characterization, a weird hobby (or, like Sulu, every weird hobby), let them play a sport, and then see what comes out of that and if its worth having them do more than just nod and press buttons, or if it'll just be an episode of obligatory, keeping-the-actor-happy table scraps.

I think we're more in agreement here than not. I'm not saying "feature them without fleshing them out." That barely even makes any sense. I'm saying FLESH THEM OUT. That's the entire crux of my arguments. MAKE THESE CHARACTERS INTERESTING. Since I have to see their stupid faces every week, take the time to make them actual characters.

Referencing Harry Kim or Mayweather is missing the point. Those were shitty characters that were poorly conceived and that the writers never bothered to do anything with. They had dull as dishwater backstories and zero personality. "Hey, how about a young officer who's just really nice? And another young officer, who's also really nice?"

Saying that an entirely different group of writers 20 years ago wrote crappy characters as a warning against trying to flesh out other characters just because they happen to have similar jobs isn't a really good reason not to do so.

The DSC writers do some things well (other things, not so much.) But, so far, developing the supporting characters is one of their strengths. I'm suggesting they spread the love around to 2-3 more people that have to be there every week anyway.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Who says that they won't get development? Who says that they haven't gotten any? I know more about Detmer and Owosuken now than I did last season (Pilot license at 12 and luddite colony). Let them develop naturally without shoehorning crap like "Nightingale" and "Fortunate Son" into the mix.

 

[Nerys Myk]

And you're not getting ME. I'm saying because they're already there, because they HAVE to be at least in the geography of the main action, at least physically adjacent to the major characters, why NOT take the time to make them interesting?

It's just dumb not to. Again, the analogy is that if there was a guy who sat literally next to Peralta in every single briefing room scene, you'd be like, "What this guy's deal? Why is he there for no reason?"

But the bridge is the 99 squad room not the briefing room. . Frankly I've never understood the logic of dragging your helmsman, navigator and comm officer into the briefing room.
The people on the DISCO bridge and in the 99 Squad room are atmosphere. There to make it seem "real".

 

[Yistaan]

And we still haven't seen the Chief Engineer yet... I know they probably don't have the rights, but it'd be fun if Keenser, the Prime version of the character from the Kelvinverse movies, were Discovery's up till now unseen chief engineer.

 

[Succubint]

Guys, there's also budget to consider. Contracts for main star regulars vs guest stars vs co-stars greatly differ in terms of pay scale. There is only so much money for the acting roles to spread around. If the writers decide to promote a character to have more story/more lines/more prominence, that can often mean the need to renegotiate the contract. There are pretty strict guild rules in terms of billing in the credits and such. That's why such negotiations usually happen between seasons. Obviously they have a bit of leeway in terms of featuring a character slightly more than previously, adding in more color, a few more lines which flesh them out better etc., but still, there's appropriate compensation and credit to be considered if that difference is going to be significant.

 

[Avro Arrow]

What I don't get is why they bothered to introduce Naan as an engineer in the premiere to begin with. She didn't really do anything engineering related there anyway, and the next time we see her, they establish the Enterprise's chief engineer is someone else, only to go on to establish Naan is now a security officer in her third appearance. Why didn't they just introduce her as a security officer in the premiere to begin with?

As mentioned in the other thread, I had missed or forgotten that line of dialogue, and based on the way Nhan was written, always assumed she was a security officer. (Based on her rank, I figured she was Pike's security chief.) IIRC, it was you who pointed out that line to me in "Brothers" about Pike bringing an engineer and a science officer.

I have since re-watched that episode, and Bryce relays that message to Saru, then Saru and Burnham go to the transporter room (having a corridor discussion en route), then Pike, Nhan and Connolly beam aboard. The simplest explanation is just that Pike changed his mind about who he was going to bring with him between the time he signaled Discovery and the time he came aboard. With the state the Enterprise was supposed to be in, perhaps Louvier argued that he couldn't spare an engineer. Or maybe Pike had heard rumours about the Discovery crew, and decided he better have a security officer just in case his taking command didn't go as smoothly as he hoped.

Basically, the identification of Nhan as an engineer is circumstantial, rather than direct.

 

[XCV330]

Going to stress here that Starfleet ISN'T military and though it is set up on some lines similar to that, there's no indication that A: everyone gets their rank from Starfleet. B: that rank is necessary or dependant upon the job requirement and C: that special ships might indeed get higher ranking personnel

So part A: Kirk says that Starfleet is a combined service. He also states that Enterprise operates under the authority of the UESPA. It seems clear that a ship like the Intrepid with a full Vulcan crew probably would not operate under the UESPA as operator authority and might instead either operate directly under starfleet or the Vulcan Expeditionary Group.

We have at least one example of a colonel in the UFP, Col. West, who wore a Starfleet uniform. And yet no other colonel was ever seen before or after in the movies and TV (not counting colonel Greene). Since the MACOs had been disbanded by then, was he from some other organization that worked in combined service with Starfleet? It would appear so. There are other ranks that seemingly appear and are never seen again, like midshipman. How many other chiefs have there been besides O'Brien (or non-coms, period?). T'Pol is another person who did not receive her rank from Starfleet, but one assumes there was some equivocation made form her Vulcan rank term to what she'd be doing on board NX-01.

The easiest answer is that rank in Startrek is befuddled and messy. But a broader answer is that its messy because there are multiple rank-granting organizations. Hell even captains all on their lonesome like Janeway seem to be capable of lowering and upgrading ranks, without a court martial.

B: Harry Kim. Harry Kim does it all. Harry Kim gets center seat two nights a week. Harry Kim cannot be promoted. And yet he has tremendous responsibility, is treated like senior staff and is part of Janeway's ready room meetings. Other examples of non ranked persons with tremendous responsilibites: Specialist Burnham, 7 of 9. For that matter, how did EMH receive a commission? He did not inherit it from Dr. Zimmerman.

C: We haven't seen the details to the crews of a lot of starfleet ships. It might be possible that the average O'berth or Hermes class don't often get high ranking crews. Maybe Burnham is right and if you really want to reach for the higher ranks you have to put in time on a Connie. Maybe once you're on a Connie and used to the 5 year missions, you stay there. There's precident. Some NASA astronauts left the program after 2011 when they realized there would be no more short term shuttle slots and the only options from there on would be a limited number of 6 month TDY's on ISS.

Discovery IS a special case because Lorca put together the crew he wanted. Many if not most of his crew are persons he had experience with in their mirror versions, people he felt he could mold to get the job done. So yes, Discovery is ranked top heavy, but it might be on purpose. It is, after all, Lorca's dream team.

The best example I can think of how I think Starfleet ranks might work is more akin to NASA than the military. NASA doesn't grant ranks itself, rather it has roles that need to be filled, and some of those roles have at times called for certain ranks. or at least the experience thereof.

Take into account STS-134, the second to last shuttle mission. It had a crew of 5. On board was one Captain (the commander of the mission), 2 colonels (one retired), three specialists who i do not believe had active or retired military ranks.

 

[cultcross]

Take any show, from "Mad Men" to "Brooklyn 99". Both shows have plenty of literal background extras to make their respective workplaces look and feel like real places, but you'd never see a couple of extras in the middle of an important staff meeting with the rest of the characters who do nothing but nod along and exchange glances whenever the main characters are talking

I don't know what TV you watch, but that happens all the time. Most shows that aren't old Trek have a pool of recurring background characters who deliver the occasional functional line, fill out meetings, sit behind desks, etc, but are not regulars and do not receive any story focus or development. It helps with the reality of the fictional world if you see the same faces, and it helps with the tightness of the narrative if you don't try to make them all main cast.

 

[Tim Thomason]

Discovery is the fastest ship in the fleet, an experimental testbed, and was probably a much sought-after position during the war.

In my mind, the highest rank achievable on average is Lieutenant, while a Lt. Commander is expected to have some command responsibility, and a full Commander is expected to pass a tesr to be qualified to command the ship in an emergency. Captains (usually) have to be full-time commanding officers.

Discovery has 130 crew. Here's all we know, by rank:

1. Captain:
   1. Lorca(†), Commanding Officer - Veteran Starfleet CO. Allegedly.
   2. Georgiou, Commanding Officer - Not the real Georgiou, the mirror one that they left on Qo'noS.
   3. Pike, Commanding Officer - Most decorated Captain in Starfleet. Prove me wrong.
2. Cdr. Saru, Executive Officer - Also acting Captain at several points (and treated as a sort of "co-Captain" by Pike). Saru was only promoted after the Shenzhou disaster, but his position likely gives him authority over the other commanders.
3. Cdr. Burnham, Chief Science Officer - Originally an imprisoned specialist, Burnham was restored to her rank from her time as XO on the Shenzhou. She may or may not be in the chain of command.
4. Cdr. (Security Chief)
   1. Cdr. Landry(†), Chief of Security - High rank could be because of the very classified nature of Discovery's mission and she may have been recruited by Lorca from a junior command post or XO post elsewhere.
   2. Cdr. Nhan, Chief of Security - Might have an engineering background, but most likely was the Security Chief onboard the Enterprise, with the highest rank achievable and the ability to command the ship if necessary. Again, Discovery is a classified craft with a large security apparatus.
5. Cdr. Gotthelf - ordered to report to Deck 2 (mess hall?). Could be the Chief Engineer or the CMO.
6. Cdr. Webb - ordered to report to security. Possibly Landry's replacement as Security Chief abd Tyler's predecessor, but who knows what happened to him or her. Could just be the Chief Engineer or CMO getting a briefing.
7. Cdr. Wilson - ordered to report to the transporter room. I don't think they are a transporter chief, so my best bet is this is the Chief Engineer.
8. Cdr. ??, physician - inspected the gormagander and was killed by Harry Mudd. Could be the CMO and/or Gotthelf, Webb, or Wilson mentioned elsewhere in the series.
9. Lt. Cdr. Airiam, Spore Drive Operations Officer - Has taken the conn, so probably in the chain of command (2nd officer?). As the spore drive is the main focus of the ship, she is top of her field, but might never had any interest in command or taken a Bridge Officers Test.
10. Lt. Cdr. Stamets, Spore Drive Specialist and Astromycologist - Originally a Lt. (probably a direct commission), Stamets developed the spore drive and works to implement it and navigate through the mycelial network.
11. Lt. Cdr. Culber, Physician - Possibly the Assistant CMO to account for his high rank. Not sure if he'll be reinstated anytime soon.
12. Lt. Detmer, Helm Officer - Promoted after her stint on the Shenzhou, she has the same rank and position as Sulu in TOS (although different responsibilities).
13. Lt. Tyler, Chief of Security - May have only been a temporary position, at the time. Later discovered to be Klingon spy and now works for Section 31 or whatever. I guess he's going to be a civilian liaison and I should move him to the bottom of this list.
14. Lt. Rhys, Tactical Officer - May have taken over tactical from Landry, although it makes sense as a seperate post.
15. Lt. Richter, Communications Officer - Seen early in the show, may have been reassigned as Bryce took his place.
16. Lt. Collins - ordered to report to the bridge, so a relief officer, maybe.
17. Lt. Gavin - ordered to report to the bridge, so a relief officer, maybe.
18. Lt. Logan - ordered to report to the observation deck, so maybe in charge of the shuttlebay.
19. Lt. Nilsson, operations officer - seen in the shuttlebay, so maybe in charge of the bay or just the engineer who coordinated with the gravity simulator.
20. Lt. j.g. Owosekun, Chief Operations Officer - Probably in charge of the traditional operations of the Discovery. Her low rank, a la Harry Kim, could be indicative of the fact that she is mostly a liaison to the bridge from other departments.
21. Lt. j.g. Bryce, Communications Officer - Low-ranking because he's fairly new and has a generic Starfleet post on an experimental science vessel
22. Lt. j.g. Linus, science officer - Judging from his scenes in the briefing room and on the bridge, he may be a relief science officer or Burnham's assistant chief.
23. Lt. j.g. Pollard, physician - Possibly only one of three doctors on the Discovery, with a specialty in exotic aliens. Her low rank, a la Bashir, indicates she may have only been commissioned recently.
24. Ensign Chiefowitz - ordered to report to sickbay, so possibly, maybe a nurse or medical technician
25. Ensign Magnus - ordered to report to engineering, so probably an engineer
26. Ensign Rause - ordered to report to the shuttlebay, so possibly a shuttle pilot.
27. Haynes, science officer - A member of the Command Training Program, he wore a uniform and was likely a commissioned officer like Tilly.
28. Kim, operations officer - A member of the Command Training Program, he wore a uniform and was likely a commissioned officer like Tilly.
29. Ensign Tilly, spore drive engineer - works in Stamets' lab, but also has oversight over other labs as a junior member of the CTP. Originally a Cadet on field study with the Discovery. Probably recruited by Lorca.
30. Osnullus, operations officer - A bridge officer of indeterminate rank.
    
31. Brianna, Logic Sciences Officer - she had a two-level research lab, but it was reassigned by Ensign Tilly. Anywhere from a high-ranking officer outside the chain of command or a civilian researcher, perhaps.
    
32. Kowski(†), security officer - killed by Ripper.
33. Cadet Decker - ordered to report to ready room early in the series. Probably on field study. Unknown if he graduated with Tilly. Most likely Will Decker.
    
34. Cadet Wells - ordered to report to engineering, so probably assigned as an engineer on field study. Unknown if he or she graduated with Tilly.
35. Crewman Harrington, Service Engineer - works in the traditional engineering department.

There's at least 16 other, unnamed crew members, ranging in rank from Lieutenant to Crewman, and also the unseen CMO and Chief Engineer, many of whom may be some of the mentioned characters above.

 

[drt]

Depending on the formality of the page, Gotthelf, Webb and Wilson could be lieutenant commanders.

With regard to Rhys, having security be the bridge weapons officer was more of a TMP/TNG thing, i could see them being seperate in the TOS era with the assumption there's an ordinance department.

 

[the Sisko]

This is not the most unusual thing. Discovery seems like it's a ship meant for very short missions while Enterprise is meant for long missions. As such, a young officer who wants to get ahead would go to Enterprise for the most opportunity/variety to get in the action while people with a certain seniority would be wanted for very specific missions. I could see a world where Discovery turns over 1/3-1/2 it's crew every 6-12 months based on each new assignment. Heck, they even had a captain in mind for Discovery worth having it travel to Vulcan... and then had him sit and wait because a more mission specialized captain (Pike) had availability.

As to the specifics:
Burnham was likely stuck on discovery after reinstatement (as few captains would want a newly reinstated 1st officer who once was convicted on treason).
Naan and Reno aren't naturally on Discovery

 

[fireproof78]

Why are the ranks so top heavy? Because Starfleet isn't a military!

*runs away*

Ok, in all seriousness, Starfleet has always had an odd rank structure. The Cage and WNMHGB had only two stripes for the captain, and one stripe for the rest of the crew, as well as a broken braid for other crew. Gene Roddenberry also postulated around the limited amount of enlisted rates due to the cross-training for the staff.

 

[The Wormhole]

It was absolutely a mistake on TNG's part not to cast a new series regular to be at the conn.

Eh, not really. It was clear they had no ideas for a new conn officer, so adding a new cast member for the sole purpose of sitting next to Data wouldn't have added anything. Even with Ro, they only used her eight times, six of them in the fifth season, and one of those times (Cause and Effect) she had no relevance to the story at all. And truth be told, Star Trek doesn't have all that much luck with helmsmen anyway. Sulu stands out these days because of George Takei's popularity, but take that away and the only ones who most fans would readily think of are either Wesley Crusher (a teenage genius) or Tom Paris (basically a typical flippant flyboy). Star Trek doesn't seem to have any ideas on how to make helmsmen interesting.

Since I have to see their stupid faces every week, take the time to make them actual characters.

I kind of view the characters like Detmer or Owo or whoever as being similar to Walter Harriman on Stargate, a recurring presence during all ten seasons of SG-1 and it DVD movies, recurring during all five seasons of SGA, and even appeared once on SGU but rarely got any story material beyond yelling out which chevrons were encoded while the gate was dialling and being General Landry's aide in the last two seasons. Hell, he didn't even get a name until the eighth season, and that was a by-product of Richard Dean Anderson ad-libbing in a scene.

Going to stress here that Starfleet ISN'T military

While I don't want to get That Argument rolling, I will point out that so far Disco has been depicting Starfleet as a military. Georgiou is actually a graduate of a Starfleet run military academy, so I'd like to know how one rationalizes the non-military Starfleet running a military academy.

How many other chiefs have there been besides O'Brien (or non-coms, period?).

According to Memory Alpha, there are twenty Chief Petty Officers besides O'Brien and forty-two other enlisted personnel.

Hell even captains all on their lonesome like Janeway seem to be capable of lowering and upgrading ranks, without a court martial.

Even deployed COs today can do that, though when they return home their superiors have the option of overruling them, which doesn't typically happen, but theoretically can.

Discovery has 130 crew. Here's all we know, by rank:

Well, shit. That was well researched. Good job.

Burnham was likely stuck on discovery after reinstatement (as few captains would want a newly reinstated 1st officer who once was convicted on treason).

Mutiny actually, not treason.

Naan and Reno aren't naturally on Discovery

Reno isn't, but Naan is actually holding a position on the senior staff, which makes her as naturally on the ship as Pike at the very least.

 

[Crewman6]

Eh, not really. It was clear they had no ideas for a new conn officer, so adding a new cast member for the sole purpose of sitting next to Data wouldn't have added anything.

Yes, and that was the "mistake" part. Having no ideas for a new character was a major shortcoming by the writers. They absolutely COULD have come up with someone interesting and put them there, someone who added something to the show. It was a failing that they didn't even bother to try.

Even with Ro, they only used her eight times, six of them in the fifth season, and one of those times (Cause and Effect) she had no relevance to the story at all. And truth be told, Star Trek doesn't have all that much luck with helmsmen anyway....Star Trek doesn't seem to have any ideas on how to make helmsmen interesting.

That's just silly and a meaningless coincidence. There's nothing inherent about the position of helmsman that makes Star Trek writers (who are not all a single, unchanging hive mind entity, but a loose collection of many individuals spread across decades) suddenly unable to come up with a good character.

 

[fireproof78]

That's just silly and a meaningless coincidence. There's nothing inherent about the position of helmsman that makes Star Trek writers (who are not all a single, unchanging hive mind entity, but a loose collection of many individuals spread across decades) suddenly unable to come up with a good character.

There was also no reason for the writers to craft another character, when the emphasis was demonstrated already by said writers to focus on Picard, Data, and Worf, among others. Certain things will be emphasized by production teams, and others will not.

There is nothing inherent in a story structure to require every bridge character to have an interesting story.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Mister Leslie had hidden depths.

 

[fireproof78]

Mister Leslie had hidden depths.

True. Definitely my favorite action figure. I had his baseball card too.