When did ST move into an alternate universe to our own?

[junkdata]

At what point did ST canon move into an alternate universe to our own

It's always been in an alternate universe, the same as Marvel and DC Comics are, Doctor Who, etc.

Not really. Its sci fi based on a common origin. Its not superhero, set in a mirror universe.

 

[Nerys Myk]

At what point did ST canon move into an alternate universe to our own

It's always been in an alternate universe, the same as Marvel and DC Comics are, Doctor Who, etc.

Not really. Its sci fi based on a common origin. Its not superhero, set in a mirror universe.

Being "sci fi" rather than superhero doesn't make it less of an alternate universe. A "mirror" universe is usually one where certain things are reversed. Like Earth 3 in DC comics or the Evil universe in Star Trek. All Fiction is some respect is set in alternate universes.

 

[Relayer1]

I'm happy enough that The Eugenics Wars were only identified retrospectively when the truth behind the many apparently separate conflicts of the late 20th century became known.

Handwave ? Yes, but good enough...

 

[AirCommodore]

At what point did ST canon move into an alternate universe to our own

It's always been in an alternate universe, the same as Marvel and DC Comics are, Doctor Who, etc.

Not really. Its sci fi based on a common origin. Its not superhero, set in a mirror universe.

There is no difference between the two. Doctor Who, Star Wars, Star Trek, BSG, the Terminator, Marvel and DC are all the same in this regard. None of them are OUR timeline or universe, though the writers of them are, and so they draw heavily from our own world.

 

[Brutal Strudel]

Let's imagine that these 3 major changes happening right now in San Franscico--

The government starts segregating poor people into restricted districts ( ) The police uniforms change to tan color jumpsuits, ( ) A new, big, military-like emblem is designed that all government officials wear on their chests.

Even the social worker is wearing the emblem and it looks like a police badge-- maybe it's the size. Being extra big like that makes it look like some fascist symbol.

So even today, that would be enough to have people into all types of uproar- civil rights, conspiracy theorists etc.

The far right would be yelling government conspiracies, the far left would be yelling civil rights/fascism and everyone else would just be disturbed at the very image of it.

This is supposed to take place around 2020 according to DS9. Too much of a divergence away from realistic view of our time line. (as far as sci fi goes.)

Cynicism mixed with an idea of what the early 2000's would be like.

Sometimes it's funny how sci fi tries to predict what the future will be like in only 30 or even 20 years time.

If you put Trek's apocalyptic sci fi material and apocalyptic religious material side by side, they'd look very similar.

By the same token, though, the real 23rd Century will look far less like Star Trek's than the real 2020s will look like DS9's.

EDIT: I suspect, the way things are going, that the real 2020s may look a great deal worse.

 

[Enterprise1701]

I say no later than the mid 20th century because canonically Khan was a living genetically engineered tyrant in the 1990s and thus he was most likely born/engineered by genetic engineering more advanced than that of reality in the 1950s or 1960s.

Then again Star Trek has all humanoid species in the galaxy be the result of a massive bioengineering project by the progenitor humanoid race millions or billions of years before 2368. So you could go with that as the divergence from real life.

 

[T'Girl]

he was most likely born/engineered by genetic engineering more advanced than that of reality in the 1950s or 1960s.

But in the original concept Khan was the produce of a selective breeding program.

The idea of applying eugenics to Human Beings goes back at least a hundred and fifty years, and we've been breeding animals for certain traits for far longer than that.

 

[Maurice]

Re fascism. My mother grew up in fascist Italy (and was a Young Fascist, which by definition every child was if they attended public school) and so I know a little bit about that (it's weird to see one of your mother's school certificates with Mussolini's name on it). The veneration of the state is a key element and as such national symbols and emphasis on the military are commonplace elements of fascist states. Seeing soldiers and government workers wearing state prominent state symbols sure smacks of fascism, even though it's not exclusive to it.

But in the original concept Khan was the produce of a selective breeding program.

And who doesn't love fresh produce?

 

[Deckerd]

It's always been in an alternate universe, the same as Marvel and DC Comics are, Doctor Who, etc.

Not really. Its sci fi based on a common origin. Its not superhero, set in a mirror universe.

There is no difference between the two. Doctor Who, Star Wars, Star Trek, BSG, the Terminator, Marvel and DC are all the same in this regard. None of them are OUR timeline or universe, though the writers of them are, and so they draw heavily from our own world.

Exactly. As someone already pointed out, this defines all fiction. The reason there are things we recognise is so that we don't lose interest. Some writers push the envelope a lot more than others, of course. ST is just a fantasy setting like any other, so the answer to the thread title is it was never in our universe.

 

[Timo]

Seeing soldiers and government workers wearing state prominent state symbols sure smacks of fascism, even though it's not exclusive to it.

That's paranoid. Prominent symbols are a commercial phenomenon today, chiefly - computer repairladies and cleaning men wear them, on their flashy uniforms, while driving to their assignments on common-livery vehicles sporting paramilitary pennant codes. Being militant is sexy, and sexy sells, but it has extremely little to do with power or politics.

There's nothing particularly "state" about the symbols we see anyway. Police departments all over the world wear much more prominent symbology today, in "military" brass rather than cheapo stitched-in canvas. The symbols do stand for organized violence, historically and theoretically. But they are not (supposed to be) threatening, and in most places they are supposed to symbolize not the power of the state over its citizens, but the power of law over them - and law is something the citizens of a democracy have control over.

Really, seeing facism in every shadow just dilutes the meaning of the word and the concept. Which probably isn't a bad thing: if powerful state-controlled political movements emphasizing the ruthless use of force and survival of the fittest become the subject of halfhearted everyday insult-exchanging or lots of indifferent shrugging, all the better!

As for ST somehow being set in our own universe and timeline, I say bah to all that. What would be the point? Fiction is supposed to take liberties with reality, to surprise us with twists and turns. If it were 1:1 true to daily news, why watch? Trek is in many ways divergent from our reality, and Earth history is divergent overall, not merely beyond some key date. We can't expect to go back to a battle in the Hittite Wars, the Crimean War or the Cod Wars and find the events unfolding the way our history books tell us; there's bound to be an alien or a time traveler or a misguided genius ahead of his time mixing up things.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[T'Girl]

Seeing [snip] government workers wearing state prominent state symbols sure smacks of fascism, even though it's not exclusive to it.

For example, the United States Postal Service. Didn't the Nazi's also use a eagle as one of their symbols? Maybe the people running the Sanctuary Districts were Nazis.

Nazis are bad.

 

[junkdata]

Not really. Its sci fi based on a common origin. Its not superhero, set in a mirror universe.

There is no difference between the two. Doctor Who, Star Wars, Star Trek, BSG, the Terminator, Marvel and DC are all the same in this regard. None of them are OUR timeline or universe, though the writers of them are, and so they draw heavily from our own world.

Exactly. As someone already pointed out, this defines all fiction. The reason there are things we recognise is so that we don't lose interest. Some writers push the envelope a lot more than others, of course. ST is just a fantasy setting like any other, so the answer to the thread title is it was never in our universe.

respectfully disagree.

all you have done is assert that all fiction borrows from this world. well done. where else would it borrow from?

There are still different types of fiction, and pretending star trek and star wars (for one example) are the same ilk, because they both have space ships, or because they are both borrowing from our world, is simply incorrect.

There are different types of fiction, and they are characterized by similarities in form, style, or subject matter.

Fantasy and sci fi are different genres for a reason.

Sci fi a realistic speculation about possible future events, based solidly on adequate knowledge of the real world, past and present, and on a thorough understanding of the nature and significance of the scientific method.

Therefore it is synonymous with a real world base, that leads to a speculative universe in the future. A parallel universe, as on star trek, is created when the original premise overlaps with the commercial success of the project (leading to a date issue), or when time travel and alternate universes are set up.

Its still sci fi, because its original building blocks as a series were made up of our world + speculation on scientific developments.

Compare this to game of thrones, that has no bearing on our world and is not set in our world or based on any scientific developments.

They both borrow from our world, because everything borrows from our world, but they are generically distinct.

Star wars might as well be GOT in space. It has nothing to do with earth, outside of its editors location.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I think that Deckerd is basically correct here. Any conceit that Star Trek is set in our universe is just that—a conceit.

In those terms, I think what the OP is asking is, under that conceit, when did Star Trek move into an alternate universe to our own?

But Nerys Myk already answered that question. The answer is: never. The conceit is that we are supposed to identify Star Trek's universe as our own, even when it's obviously different.

 

[Timo]

Why do so, though? A big point of Trek from the get-go is that it doesn't work on the same rules as our real world. The premise includes a nice and altruist military force for starters, and soon evolves to showing heroes who feel bad about acting human, societies that spit three times over their left shoulder when hearing about money, and major politics pivoting on the biological and psychological characteristics of unreal species. Applying real-world expectations there would not get us anywhere except out of the entertainment zone.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I think the conceit is to bend reality to match the fantasy. That's the only way that the world in Star Trek can be identified as the real world.

As soon as you've said that real people don't behave like that, you're no longer suspending your disbelief anyway. IMO, that got worse, in the first season of TNG, before it go better.

 

[junkdata]

I think that Deckerd is basically correct here. Any conceit that Star Trek is set in our universe is just that—a conceit.

In those terms, I think what the OP is asking is, under that conceit, when did Star Trek move into an alternate universe to our own?

But Nerys Myk already answered that question. The answer is: never. The conceit is that we are supposed to identify Star Trek's universe as our own, even when it's obviously different.

I made the OP, and a disagree that its just a conceit.

Its an understanding based on all available evidence, that TOS is based in a (fictionalised) approximation of our universe. Of course its not real, because its a fictional story. But our world is a parallel to ST world, up into the year it was created in our world, and the year it is set in ST.

So the world of kirk and spock, in that first episode, is married to the world we had up until the creation of the show. Past that point our world continued to run and so did the world of ST. Thats two worlds running separated by centuries. One real and one fictional.

At some point the projected future Star trek set up for 60s America, conflicted with real world events and developments. Added to this, Star trek featured stories that altered our real world history in the show.

None of this alters the fact that ST is based on a fictionalised representation of our world, and indeed may be said to be originate from a real world basis, up until 1960s America.

In short, even after all these series, human history is taught in SF academy, and ...

The Greek civilization arose approximately 2700 BC. Much of Earth's culture and philosophy began with the Greeks. To Captain James T. Kirk in the 23rd century, the Greek civilization was seen as the beginnings of a "Golden Age". (TOS: "Who Mourns for Adonais?")

Another ancient civilization, the Egyptians, constructed large pyramids as part of their accomplishments. Their Great Pyramid of Giza was the largest of the pyramids built in Egypt and was finished around 2600 BC. Its construction was observed by time-traveling anthropologists beginning in 2769. (ENT: "Cold Front")

Some battles that took place in ancient Human history were remembered into the 24th century. One such battle was a small band of Spartans led by King Leonidas, who defended a mountain pass against the vast Persian army at the Battle of Thermopylae in 480 BC. The Spartans put up a "heroic struggle" (according to Julian Bashir), until they were wiped out. (DS9: "What You Leave Behind")

Roman carriage, Timestream
A Roman chariot
The Roman Empire – arising in the first century BC and lasting in one form or another until the 15th century – was the first major global power in Human history. The Roman Emperor Augustus Caesar (63 BC – 14 AD) was viewed by many, including Khan, as having achieved great things for the Empire during his reign. (TOS: "Space Seed") The Roman Empire was seen by Jean-Luc Picard to have begun its fall as a civilization in the 5th century when the Visigoths attacked the capital city of Rome during the reign of the Emperor Honorious. (TNG: "The Best of Both Worlds")
Following on the heels of Rome was a popular religion, Christianity, with a basic philosophy of, as Spock summarized it, "total love and total brotherhood". It arose in the ancient world beginning in the 1st century and followed the teachings of Jesus Christ. The religion considered Christ to be the son of God. (TOS: "Bread and Circuses")

Pre-warp history Edit
A member of Species 8472 said of Humans in 2375, "At first glance they're so primitive. Genetic impurities, no telepathy, violent. And yet they've created so many beautiful ways to convey their ideas: literature, art, music." (VOY: "In the Flesh") Unfortunately, Human history before the discovery of the warp drive is, in many ways, not defined by literature, art, and music but by military conflicts, plague, and inhumanity.
Joust, Timestream
A knight jousting on horseback
The trend begins with a series of related military campaigns – fought for causes both religious and political – that took place during the 11th century through the 13th century. These were known as the Crusades. These wars gave Human history "character" according to Q. (DS9: "Q-Less")
Half of Europe was killed by the bubonic plague circa 1334. Flint saw it that summer from Constantinople: "... It marched through the streets, the sewers. It left the city by ox cart, by sea, to kill half of Europe. The rats, rustling and squealing in the night as they, too, died." (TOS: "Requiem for Methuselah")

Beginning in 1478, the Spanish Inquisition was founded in Spain to suppress heresies against the Christian religion. The Inquisition was regarded by Humans as a particularly brutal institution into at least the 24th century, and was regarded by Q as another historical event that provided character to Humanity and kept it from being boring. (Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home; DS9: "Q-Less")

By 1485, Earth had recovered from plague and war to achieve a technological level equivalent to a "B" rating on the industrial scale used by 23rd century Starfleet. (TOS: "Spock's Brain")

Another inquisition in the name of Christianity took place during the 17th century. The scientist Galileo Galilei publicly supported the idea that the Earth was not the center of the universe. He was tried and convicted of heresy in 1633 by an inquisition as a result, and many of his books were burned. (DS9: "In the Hands of the Prophets")

The 17th century also saw the start of many uprisings and revolutions against oppressive governments and empires. The Pueblo Revolt in 1680 was one. As described by Deanna Troi and Anthwara in 2370:

Troi: "everal Indian tribes rose up against their Spanish overlords and drove them out of what is now called New Mexico."
Anthwara: "Ten years later, the Spanish returned to reconquer the area. They were ... brutal ... I would use the word savage. They killed our people by the hundreds ... maimed thousands more."
According to Anthwara, one of the Spaniards was an ancestor of Picard's named Javier Maribona-Picard. (TNG: "Journey's End")
George Washington
A sketch of George Washington
Another took place in the late 18th century, when George Washington helped win a war for his colonies' independence from Great Britain. This was generally known as the American Revolution and resulted in the establishment of the United States of America. In 2366 some, such as Beverly Crusher, considered Washington a military general; others, such as Kyril Finn, considered him a terrorist. (TNG: "The High Ground")
Commerce arose in the United States following the revolution, and throughout the 18th century and 19th century, ocean-going "Yankee Traders" sailed the oceans in search of mercantile opportunity. (TNG: "The Last Outpost")

In 1794, army general Napoléon Bonaparte rose to power, installing himself as absolute ruler of France in 1799, declared himself Emperor of France, and subsequently dominated Europe. The British Royal Navy, led by Admiral Horatio Nelson, defeated the combined French and Spanish fleet at the Battle of Trafalgar in October 1805. Napoleon was ultimately defeated at Waterloo in 1815 due to the combined efforts of the British General Wellington, and the Prussian General Blucher. (TNG: "Hide and Q", "The Best of Both Worlds"; VOY: "The Thaw")

First World War
The destructive mechanization of World War I
Human civilization experienced major wars that involved nearly every continent on Earth during the 20th and 21st centuries. The first two such wars – the first and second World Wars – saw six million and eleven million Humans die, respectively, from the effects of despotism alone. The third resulted in 37 million such deaths, and a total of 600 million Human deaths. (TOS: "Bread and Circuses"; Star Trek: First Contact; VOY: "In the Flesh")
In "Bread and Circuses", Spock gave casualty figures for each of World Wars I, II, and III. His figures are substantially off for total casualties that records show for the first and second world wars, even when all civilians are taken out of the equation. Only by assuming he was discussing deaths from despotism alone (reasonable in the context of his statement) do the numbers appear to match both data known in 1967 and later Trek statements on WWIII deaths.
Adolf Hitler, Timestream
Adolf Hitler marches with Nazi flag
The Second World War was a conflict, in part, between the forces of fascism – epitomized by Germany's Adolf Hitler and his Nazi political party – and those who opposed such a form of government. (TOS: "The City on the Edge of Forever") Initially assuming an official position of neutrality, the United States fully entered the conflict after a Japanese attack at Pearl Harbor. (TNG: "The Enemy") Hitler and his allies were defeated, but left controversy in their wake. In the 23rd century, some, such as Spock, saw the Nazis as sadistic; some, such as Kirk saw them as "brutal, perverted" and that they "had to be destroyed at a terrible cost". Still others, such as John Gill, saw them governing over the "most efficient state... Earth ever knew", and believed that some of the Nazi approaches could prove beneficial to a society. Spock agreed with Gill, at least as to efficiency: "That tiny country – beaten, bankrupt, defeated, rose in a few years to stand only one step away from global domination." (TOS: "Patterns of Force"; VOY: "The Killing Game", "The Killing Game, Part II"; ENT: "Storm Front", "Storm Front, Part II")
Multiple brush wars occurred on the Asian continent involving two great powers. (TOS: "A Private Little War")

It is possible that Kirk may have been referencing the Korean War (1950-1953) and the Vietnam War (1957-1975), which both involved the United States and the Soviet Union.
Sputnik I
Sputnik I in orbit of Earth in 1957
The 20th century also saw the rise of nuclear weaponry and the beginnings of space exploration. In 1947, the three Ferengi Quark, his brother Rom, and nephew Nog were accidentally transported back in time from the 24th century to Roswell, New Mexico, and were mistaken for Martians. After returning to their own time by using beta radiation from a nuclear explosion, the incident was passed off by the government as a weather balloon. (DS9: "Little Green Men")
The Soviet Union launched the first artificial satellite, Sputnik 1 on October 4, 1957. (ENT: "Carbon Creek")

1968, the year in which a malfunctioning orbital nuclear weapon nearly detonated, was viewed by 23rd century Humans as one of the most critical years on record. Then-current Earth crises "would fill a tape bank", according to Spock. Assassinations, government coups, wars in Asia, the Communist/Capitalist conflicts, and orbiting hydrogen bombs were among the greatest problems facing Humanity at that time. (TOS: "Assignment: Earth", "A Private Little War", "The Omega Glory") Despite this, Humanity first landed two men on Earth's moon and returned them safely to Earth the following year. (VOY: "One Small Step", "Threshold"; ENT: "Carbon Creek")

TOS: "Assignment: Earth" predicted that in 1968 a government coup would take place in an Asian country. In the real 1968, a coup did occur in Asia, in the country of Iraq. That episode – broadcast in March of 1968 – also predicted an "important" assassination for 1968. Dr. Martin Luther King was killed in April; Robert Kennedy in June. The Watergate break-in and cover-up of the 1970s was also mentioned by Q as being an event which gave Human history "character". (DS9: "Q-Less")The Greek civilization arose approximately 2700 BC. Much of Earth's culture and philosophy began with the Greeks. To Captain James T. Kirk in the 23rd century, the Greek civilization was seen as the beginnings of a "Golden Age". (TOS: "Who Mourns for Adonais?")

Another ancient civilization, the Egyptians, constructed large pyramids as part of their accomplishments. Their Great Pyramid of Giza was the largest of the pyramids built in Egypt and was finished around 2600 BC. Its construction was observed by time-traveling anthropologists beginning in 2769. (ENT: "Cold Front")

Some battles that took place in ancient Human history were remembered into the 24th century. One such battle was a small band of Spartans led by King Leonidas, who defended a mountain pass against the vast Persian army at the Battle of Thermopylae in 480 BC. The Spartans put up a "heroic struggle" (according to Julian Bashir), until they were wiped out. (DS9: "What You Leave Behind")

Roman carriage, Timestream
A Roman chariot
The Roman Empire – arising in the first century BC and lasting in one form or another until the 15th century – was the first major global power in Human history. The Roman Emperor Augustus Caesar (63 BC – 14 AD) was viewed by many, including Khan, as having achieved great things for the Empire during his reign. (TOS: "Space Seed") The Roman Empire was seen by Jean-Luc Picard to have begun its fall as a civilization in the 5th century when the Visigoths attacked the capital city of Rome during the reign of the Emperor Honorious. (TNG: "The Best of Both Worlds")
Following on the heels of Rome was a popular religion, Christianity, with a basic philosophy of, as Spock summarized it, "total love and total brotherhood". It arose in the ancient world beginning in the 1st century and followed the teachings of Jesus Christ. The religion considered Christ to be the son of God. (TOS: "Bread and Circuses")

Pre-warp history Edit
A member of Species 8472 said of Humans in 2375, "At first glance they're so primitive. Genetic impurities, no telepathy, violent. And yet they've created so many beautiful ways to convey their ideas: literature, art, music." (VOY: "In the Flesh") Unfortunately, Human history before the discovery of the warp drive is, in many ways, not defined by literature, art, and music but by military conflicts, plague, and inhumanity.
Joust, Timestream
A knight jousting on horseback
The trend begins with a series of related military campaigns – fought for causes both religious and political – that took place during the 11th century through the 13th century. These were known as the Crusades. These wars gave Human history "character" according to Q. (DS9: "Q-Less")
Half of Europe was killed by the bubonic plague circa 1334. Flint saw it that summer from Constantinople: "... It marched through the streets, the sewers. It left the city by ox cart, by sea, to kill half of Europe. The rats, rustling and squealing in the night as they, too, died." (TOS: "Requiem for Methuselah")

Beginning in 1478, the Spanish Inquisition was founded in Spain to suppress heresies against the Christian religion. The Inquisition was regarded by Humans as a particularly brutal institution into at least the 24th century, and was regarded by Q as another historical event that provided character to Humanity and kept it from being boring. (Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home; DS9: "Q-Less")

By 1485, Earth had recovered from plague and war to achieve a technological level equivalent to a "B" rating on the industrial scale used by 23rd century Starfleet. (TOS: "Spock's Brain")

Another inquisition in the name of Christianity took place during the 17th century. The scientist Galileo Galilei publicly supported the idea that the Earth was not the center of the universe. He was tried and convicted of heresy in 1633 by an inquisition as a result, and many of his books were burned. (DS9: "In the Hands of the Prophets")

The 17th century also saw the start of many uprisings and revolutions against oppressive governments and empires. The Pueblo Revolt in 1680 was one. As described by Deanna Troi and Anthwara in 2370:

Troi: "everal Indian tribes rose up against their Spanish overlords and drove them out of what is now called New Mexico."
Anthwara: "Ten years later, the Spanish returned to reconquer the area. They were ... brutal ... I would use the word savage. They killed our people by the hundreds ... maimed thousands more."
According to Anthwara, one of the Spaniards was an ancestor of Picard's named Javier Maribona-Picard. (TNG: "Journey's End")
George Washington
A sketch of George Washington
Another took place in the late 18th century, when George Washington helped win a war for his colonies' independence from Great Britain. This was generally known as the American Revolution and resulted in the establishment of the United States of America. In 2366 some, such as Beverly Crusher, considered Washington a military general; others, such as Kyril Finn, considered him a terrorist. (TNG: "The High Ground")
Commerce arose in the United States following the revolution, and throughout the 18th century and 19th century, ocean-going "Yankee Traders" sailed the oceans in search of mercantile opportunity. (TNG: "The Last Outpost")

In 1794, army general Napoléon Bonaparte rose to power, installing himself as absolute ruler of France in 1799, declared himself Emperor of France, and subsequently dominated Europe. The British Royal Navy, led by Admiral Horatio Nelson, defeated the combined French and Spanish fleet at the Battle of Trafalgar in October 1805. Napoleon was ultimately defeated at Waterloo in 1815 due to the combined efforts of the British General Wellington, and the Prussian General Blucher. (TNG: "Hide and Q", "The Best of Both Worlds"; VOY: "The Thaw")

First World War
The destructive mechanization of World War I
Human civilization experienced major wars that involved nearly every continent on Earth during the 20th and 21st centuries. The first two such wars – the first and second World Wars – saw six million and eleven million Humans die, respectively, from the effects of despotism alone. The third resulted in 37 million such deaths, and a total of 600 million Human deaths. (TOS: "Bread and Circuses"; Star Trek: First Contact; VOY: "In the Flesh")
In "Bread and Circuses", Spock gave casualty figures for each of World Wars I, II, and III. His figures are substantially off for total casualties that records show for the first and second world wars, even when all civilians are taken out of the equation. Only by assuming he was discussing deaths from despotism alone (reasonable in the context of his statement) do the numbers appear to match both data known in 1967 and later Trek statements on WWIII deaths.
Adolf Hitler, Timestream
Adolf Hitler marches with Nazi flag
The Second World War was a conflict, in part, between the forces of fascism – epitomized by Germany's Adolf Hitler and his Nazi political party – and those who opposed such a form of government. (TOS: "The City on the Edge of Forever") Initially assuming an official position of neutrality, the United States fully entered the conflict after a Japanese attack at Pearl Harbor. (TNG: "The Enemy") Hitler and his allies were defeated, but left controversy in their wake. In the 23rd century, some, such as Spock, saw the Nazis as sadistic; some, such as Kirk saw them as "brutal, perverted" and that they "had to be destroyed at a terrible cost". Still others, such as John Gill, saw them governing over the "most efficient state... Earth ever knew", and believed that some of the Nazi approaches could prove beneficial to a society. Spock agreed with Gill, at least as to efficiency: "That tiny country – beaten, bankrupt, defeated, rose in a few years to stand only one step away from global domination." (TOS: "Patterns of Force"; VOY: "The Killing Game", "The Killing Game, Part II"; ENT: "Storm Front", "Storm Front, Part II")
Multiple brush wars occurred on the Asian continent involving two great powers. (TOS: "A Private Little War")

It is possible that Kirk may have been referencing the Korean War (1950-1953) and the Vietnam War (1957-1975), which both involved the United States and the Soviet Union.
Sputnik I
Sputnik I in orbit of Earth in 1957
The 20th century also saw the rise of nuclear weaponry and the beginnings of space exploration. In 1947, the three Ferengi Quark, his brother Rom, and nephew Nog were accidentally transported back in time from the 24th century to Roswell, New Mexico, and were mistaken for Martians. After returning to their own time by using beta radiation from a nuclear explosion, the incident was passed off by the government as a weather balloon. (DS9: "Little Green Men")
The Soviet Union launched the first artificial satellite, Sputnik 1 on October 4, 1957. (ENT: "Carbon Creek")

1968, the year in which a malfunctioning orbital nuclear weapon nearly detonated, was viewed by 23rd century Humans as one of the most critical years on record. Then-current Earth crises "would fill a tape bank", according to Spock. Assassinations, government coups, wars in Asia, the Communist/Capitalist conflicts, and orbiting hydrogen bombs were among the greatest problems facing Humanity at that time. (TOS: "Assignment: Earth", "A Private Little War", "The Omega Glory") Despite this, Humanity first landed two men on Earth's moon and returned them safely to Earth the following year. (VOY: "One Small Step", "Threshold"; ENT: "Carbon Creek")

TOS: "Assignment: Earth" predicted that in 1968 a government coup would take place in an Asian country. In the real 1968, a coup did occur in Asia, in the country of Iraq. That episode – broadcast in March of 1968 – also predicted an "important" assassination for 1968. Dr. Martin Luther King was killed in April; Robert Kennedy in June. The Watergate break-in and cover-up of the 1970s was also mentioned by Q as being an event which gave Human history "character". (DS9: "Q-Less")

Its our history, plus plot intervention.

Therefore, its a fictional sci fi future, set in our world, interrupted only by things that developed from the shows own trajectory. That's why it split into a parallel world. It wasn't written that way to begin with.

Its almost a text book example of the some of the defining characteristics of science fiction - ie a projected fictionalised future, with a real world basis.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

None of this alters the fact that ST is based on a fictionalised representation of our world, and indeed may be said to be originate from a real world basis, up until 1960s America.

No kidding!

I am made the OP, and a disagree that its just a conceit.

It doesn't sound like you understand what conceit it is that I am/we are referring to here.

 

[junkdata]

None of this alters the fact that ST is based on a fictionalised representation of our world, and indeed may be said to be originate from a real world basis, up until 1960s America.

No kidding!

I am made the OP, and a disagree that its just a conceit.

It doesn't sound like you understand what conceit it is that I am/we are referring to here.

Conceit means a lot of things. Why don't you define it for me?

When you type "Any conceit that Star Trek is set in our universe is just that—a conceit." it interests me, if you know what the word means.

If by "just a conceit", you mean a self evident axiom, based on all we know about ST history, pre 1960, then we agree.

I think, what I should have said was "star trek is based on a non fiction, historical approximation of our world, pre 1960, and a fictionalised projection of our world post 1960, that then becomes a parallel universe, distinctly separated from our own history, because 1 the series lasted long enough to see its prophetic version of our history conflict with our actual history, 2 plot intervention with time travel changed the story.

Theres not much in star trek pre 1960, that conflicts with our own history, unless there has been a specific additional time travel element from the series.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

None of this alters the fact that ST is based on a fictionalised representation of our world, and indeed may be said to be originate from a real world basis, up until 1960s America.

No kidding!

I am made the OP, and a disagree that its just a conceit.

It doesn't sound like you understand what conceit it is that I am/we are referring to here.

Conceit means a lot of things. Why don't you define it for me?

When you type "Any conceit that Star Trek is set in our universe is just that—a conceit." it interests me, if you know what the word means.

conceit

2 a conception or image created by the imagination and having no objective reality <his dream of swimming in the Olympics is nothing more than a conceit>

 

[junkdata]

No kidding!

It doesn't sound like you understand what conceit it is that I am/we are referring to here.

Conceit means a lot of things. Why don't you define it for me?

When you type "Any conceit that Star Trek is set in our universe is just that—a conceit." it interests me, if you know what the word means.

conceit

2 a conception or image created by the imagination and having no objective reality <his dream of swimming in the Olympics is nothing more than a conceit>

But its not created by the imagination, it is reflected by all available evidence on the show.

It is not a subjective interpretation, it is an objective appraisal of all available evidence on the show.