I have been thinking about what would happen if Kes was still aboard Voyager during Season 4. Assuming she still transported Voyager across this distance but managed to stay aboard (and the transport was a one - time thing that she cannot replicate). How would that affect plots of Season 4 episodes? Especially for the Hirogen arc and the development of Seven's character.
What would have changed in Seaon 4 episodes if Kes would still be aboard Voyager?
- Thread starter BohandiAnsoid
- Start date
If everything else remained the same, then Kes would likely have joined the ranks of VOY characters who get pushed aside because "we have another great idea for a Seven episode!" 
I would liked to have seen her stick around slightly longer even if only to interact with Seven properly. To have one EMH protégée perhaps help co-mentor the next one.
I would liked to have seen her stick around slightly longer even if only to interact with Seven properly. To have one EMH protégée perhaps help co-mentor the next one.
More Kes would be always nice. Even if she was only in the background.
It wouldbe nice to see what she would think of Harry's crush on Seven, through.
It wouldbe nice to see what she would think of Harry's crush on Seven, through.
I wouldn't have been opposed to having Kes stick around, but I think the cast would've been to big.
Simple solution would be to keep Kes and to kill Neelix, Harry Kim, or Chakotay. Preferably Neelix.
Simple solution would be to keep Kes and to kill Neelix, Harry Kim, or Chakotay. Preferably Neelix.
But how would it go, do you think?
I think it would be fine if Kes had stuck around, preferably without Neelix, so we can just kill that creepy relationship once and for all. Maybe have Kes shoot Neelix with a phaser when he attacks her for rejecting him. Kind of like the whole Dirty John story. Kes comes out looking stronger, having put the man who took her away from her people and abused her and then terrorized her away.
But seriously, I think, again, that Kes could've worked if they had invested more time in the character and given her a better role on the ship. Maybe as a Couselour Troi type of character. That's kind of what she was with the Doctor, as Picardo said. Maybe she could've been a friend to Seven, someone with a lot of empathy. Maybe that should've been her role, as a counselor.
I mean, if they kept Harry Kim around, they could've just as well kept Kes around instead. And, again, Neelix should've been ditched.
But seriously, I think, again, that Kes could've worked if they had invested more time in the character and given her a better role on the ship. Maybe as a Couselour Troi type of character. That's kind of what she was with the Doctor, as Picardo said. Maybe she could've been a friend to Seven, someone with a lot of empathy. Maybe that should've been her role, as a counselor.
I mean, if they kept Harry Kim around, they could've just as well kept Kes around instead. And, again, Neelix should've been ditched.
Overall, I don't think much would change, but there could be some better continuity flow.
Picture:
Kes helps de-Borg Seven in Sickbay. As a telepath, Kes helps ease Seven's transition from the Hive Mind to hearing only her own voice, by providing some telepathic company. Through this, Kes becomes Seven's first friend on Voyager.
Kes also mentors the Doctor in how to mentor Seven. She encourages Tom and B'Elanna to admit their feelings for each other, based on what she saw in "Before and After," and what she currently sees in their minds.
Her knowledge later from "Before and After" comes into play during "Year of Hell," where she personally saves Janeway and B'Elanna. This leaves Kes conflicted about effectively erasing her daughter and grandson from the timeline.
Her experience with 8472 causes her powers to gradually develop over the course of the season, cumulating in her final evolution at the end of the season. Seven's first friend on Voyager then also becomes the first friend she has to say goodbye to. The loss of Kes causes Seven to become closer to the Doctor and Janeway.
Picture:
Kes helps de-Borg Seven in Sickbay. As a telepath, Kes helps ease Seven's transition from the Hive Mind to hearing only her own voice, by providing some telepathic company. Through this, Kes becomes Seven's first friend on Voyager.
Kes also mentors the Doctor in how to mentor Seven. She encourages Tom and B'Elanna to admit their feelings for each other, based on what she saw in "Before and After," and what she currently sees in their minds.
Her knowledge later from "Before and After" comes into play during "Year of Hell," where she personally saves Janeway and B'Elanna. This leaves Kes conflicted about effectively erasing her daughter and grandson from the timeline.
Her experience with 8472 causes her powers to gradually develop over the course of the season, cumulating in her final evolution at the end of the season. Seven's first friend on Voyager then also becomes the first friend she has to say goodbye to. The loss of Kes causes Seven to become closer to the Doctor and Janeway.
Nice to see you had time to respond. I wasn't expecting to hear from you so soon. But it's a good thing.
Also, any idea how it would influence the Hirogen arc? Especially how to make sure Kes' powers will not solve the Killing Game plot halfway through.
Also, any idea how it would influence the Hirogen arc? Especially how to make sure Kes' powers will not solve the Killing Game plot halfway through.
Last edited:
Or all three.
I think reducing themto recurring charatcers wopuld be enough. And developing them while they are recurring characters (at leats for Harry Kim and Chakotay).
Or all three. I could definitely go with that.Or all three.
Seriously, Kim and Chakotay were boring IMO, and Neelix is the Jar Jar Binks of Star Trek. I was rewatching DS9 and I am loving Quark. I think he is a breakout character and Armin Shimmerman was so great in that role and the writers gave him great material to work with. They made the Ferengi characters hilarious and lovable.
I think they were really hoping Neelix would be the Quark of Voyager and, imo, it just failed spectacularly.
I've got nothing at all against Ethan Phillips, but, man, Neelix was grating.
Plus, if you'd gotten rid of more characters, you could replace them with new ones, hopefully that are more interesting or that have more potential for drama. I think that the replacement of Kes with Seven was a great move for Discovery and I don't see why they couldn't have done more of that. It would underscore the danger of the Delta Quadrant and the passage of time. And we've seen again and again in shows like Doctor Who and Law and Order that changing characters can help the longevity of the show.
Disagreed... Chakotay would be the most logical departure.
1. His Native American mysticism had been abandoned, probably a good thing since it was based in charlatan information.
2. The Maquis had long stopped bring renegades and begun eating out of Janeway's hand.
3. The great Mulgrew/Beltran chemistry wasn't going to go anywhere.
4. Tuvok was a stronger character, and could probably balance Janeway's pigheadedness better.
5. Beltran wanted out anyway.
Wowzers! I never thought of that, but you're right! That would be a massive dilemma!
Except didn't the writers decide to ignore Kes' knowledge anyway? (In Before and After Kes is to write a report regarding everything she knows about the Krenim, but they all act like they've never heard of them before in Year of Hell.) I wouldn't have been surprised if they still ignored it even if she was still on board.
I would have liked to see Seven and Kes together learning and helping each other. Kes was still a child and 7 was basically a Child in adult form. I guess Naomi ended up in that role, but I have wondered what kind of chemistry Kes and Seven might have had.
That would have made the series better.
No, I don't want any of those main characters killed off.
SD9 could afford ten main characters and so could Voyager have done.
The idea of Kes saving Janeway and Torres but having to deal with the erasing of her daughter and grandsom from the timeline is an interesting concept.
Yes, but they ignored Paris, Torres, Chakotay, Tuvok, Neelix and Kim too from season 4 and onwards.
No, I wouldn't like to have Chakotay removed. My second favorite in the series after Kes.
If the character would have been better written, Beltran wouldn't have complained and wanted to leave.
Well, this is how the episode 30 Seconds Of Hell would have gone
<after the temporal wave passes and the ship is first heavily rocked by Krenim weaponry>
TUVOK: Shields at seventy percent. The Krenim are firing again. We're being hailed.
KES (offscreen, commbadge) Kes to Bridge. Captain, I've met them before, don't ask me how right now. Their weapons are in temporal flux, that's how they get through our shields. The temporal variance of their torpedoes is 1.47 microseconds so you need to match the shield frequency to compensate for that.
Janeway: Understood <nods to Tuvok who pushes a few buttons>
<Next volley of Krenim fire makes the ship rumble lightly, but nothing worse>
JANEWAY: Krenim vessels, this is the captain of Voyager. You may have noticed we have a defence against your torpedoes now. I suggest you stand down.
TUVOK: No response.
JANEWAY: Their mistake. Bring the ship about. We're going through their space whether they like it or not.
Disregarding what I wrote above, my headcanon is that one of the Krenim inversions also rewrote the Voyager timeline, so that the crew doesn't remember Kes' trip through time (because in the new timeline, it didn't happen).
<after the temporal wave passes and the ship is first heavily rocked by Krenim weaponry>
TUVOK: Shields at seventy percent. The Krenim are firing again. We're being hailed.
KES (offscreen, commbadge) Kes to Bridge. Captain, I've met them before, don't ask me how right now. Their weapons are in temporal flux, that's how they get through our shields. The temporal variance of their torpedoes is 1.47 microseconds so you need to match the shield frequency to compensate for that.
Janeway: Understood <nods to Tuvok who pushes a few buttons>
<Next volley of Krenim fire makes the ship rumble lightly, but nothing worse>
JANEWAY: Krenim vessels, this is the captain of Voyager. You may have noticed we have a defence against your torpedoes now. I suggest you stand down.
TUVOK: No response.
JANEWAY: Their mistake. Bring the ship about. We're going through their space whether they like it or not.
Disregarding what I wrote above, my headcanon is that one of the Krenim inversions also rewrote the Voyager timeline, so that the crew doesn't remember Kes' trip through time (because in the new timeline, it didn't happen).
Last edited:
That sort of makes sense...
Part of my head canon is that the friendly and technologically advanced Zahl were brought back when Janeway did her "time's up" on the Krenim ship, along with all its other victims. And it just so happened that they used matter-antimatter weapon tech, which explains how Voyager was able to get more torpedoes.
Agreed. Those are all good reasons to ditch Chakotay. Just a failed character.
So, ditch Chakotay for being a failed character and Neelix for being grating and keep Kes. Tuvok is the logical character, as you said, to fill the role of first officer, so no need of a replacement in this case.
Actually, if I had to rank them from best to worst:
Kim > Chakotay > Kes > Neelix.
For me, Kim is on par with Chakotay, but you bring up good points. The strikes against Chakotay are on par with Kim.
Again, I think the show would've been better if they'd all been replaced. Kes was replaced by Seven which was a great step. Chakotay should've been replaced by Tuvok. So, we're down to 8 characters.
Neelix could easily be ditched for another, more interesting alien character. Maybe one that Voyager encountered? But who would run the mess hall? Do we need a main character there?
Kim, I guess, could stick around as Tom's buddy and the guy at OPS.
Similar threads
