"Of all sad words of tongue and pen, the saddest are these: 'it might have been'."
What ships SHOULD they have used in the Dominion War?
- Thread starter Arpy
- Start date
Is that a pun for the way the model was used?
Regarding the Saratoga, given the models available at the time, the producers did seem to make a conscious decision to give Sisko one of the oldest and smallest ships. The Constellation wasn't used at all, perhaps because it had previously been depicted as obsolete and retired in TNG, although PIC retconned that. The Oberth was just *too* weak. So the Reliant model was the only choice.
If they wanted a newer ship, they could have spotlighted the Nebula or even the Ambassador, both of which were present and correct in the scene. As was the Excelsior, the main cruiser/ship of the week seen in TNG.
Contextually, the point of the scene is that the Saratoga didn't stand a chance and was sent to the slaughter, giving Sisko even more of a resentment against not just Picard, but Starfleet in general. In Emissary, he's so incensed by their stupid decision to transfer him that he intends to quit the service. He doesn't show much respect for admirals in the show until Ross shows up.
The Miranda model works well for that story. I don't know how much thought went into the modifications, but removing the rollbar and substituting it for some nondescript scientific equipment makes the ship seem even weaker, and the presence of civilians underlines that they were never supposed to be in that situation.
If they had unlimited money, maybe there was an opening for a small TNG era ship, perhaps based on one of the Wolf 359 kitbashes. But I bet they wouldn't have wanted to use any Galaxy components. The New Orleans would have seemed too similar to the Enterprise-D.
It's interesting to speculate what a totally new Starfleet ship would have looked like in 1992. Would it have been anything like the dart direction Voyager took? Or maybe one of the Nova concepts from the TNG TM?
If they wanted a newer ship, they could have spotlighted the Nebula or even the Ambassador, both of which were present and correct in the scene. As was the Excelsior, the main cruiser/ship of the week seen in TNG.
Contextually, the point of the scene is that the Saratoga didn't stand a chance and was sent to the slaughter, giving Sisko even more of a resentment against not just Picard, but Starfleet in general. In Emissary, he's so incensed by their stupid decision to transfer him that he intends to quit the service. He doesn't show much respect for admirals in the show until Ross shows up.
The Miranda model works well for that story. I don't know how much thought went into the modifications, but removing the rollbar and substituting it for some nondescript scientific equipment makes the ship seem even weaker, and the presence of civilians underlines that they were never supposed to be in that situation.
If they had unlimited money, maybe there was an opening for a small TNG era ship, perhaps based on one of the Wolf 359 kitbashes. But I bet they wouldn't have wanted to use any Galaxy components. The New Orleans would have seemed too similar to the Enterprise-D.
It's interesting to speculate what a totally new Starfleet ship would have looked like in 1992. Would it have been anything like the dart direction Voyager took? Or maybe one of the Nova concepts from the TNG TM?
The Stargazer model had been relabeled "Valkyrie" and was going to be used for either the Wolf 359 battle that we saw on screen, or was actually used in the unused footage Rob Legato shot that was discarded for the footage we saw. Closeup, the model had originally been built with battle damage for TNG's "The Battle" and would have looked awkward up close in the new footage pre-battle, which was why it most likely wasn't used.
I think they wanted a smaller (in-universe), more detailed ship for the closeup shots, and the Reliant model was the most detailed one they had that fit this bill.
I never really understood those modifications. I get removing the rollbar a la the Lantree, but adding those little protuberances on the sides that looked amazingly like guns to me (although they didn't actually fire) made the ship look more like a warship than a weaker vessel.
As I mentioned earlier, I would have gone with the minimalist approach: Just a saucer and one nacelle like the Franz Joseph Saladin/Hermes class (but maybe more contemporary to the era) so that the three pyro models would have had less build time and less materials.
That's a good question. I would say no to the dart look. That didn't start until John Eaves designed the Enterprise-E. I definitely think an elliptical saucer like the Ent-D's would have been the norm, but I think they would have made the overall ship smaller in scale (which was the original plan for the Nebula class Phoenix) and would have gone the route of either the Cheyenne or the Challenger, as nobody would mistake either of those designs for the Galaxy class.
But yes, another direction would have been to base the ship off of one of the designs from the tech manual, as that book had been published in 1991. But those designs weren't hugely fleshed out.
Incidentally, they were thinking of building a new model for the USS Raman in the 7th season TNG episode "Interface" (although that would have been a year after 'Emissary.') Would it have been a TNG version of the Oberth?
The more I think about this, the more I think that it wasn't really necessary for them to come up with a new design/model for the Saratoga. The nature of DS9 meant that they wouldn't be around Starfleet all that much, so seeing starships would have been few and far between. Past Emissary, the only guest starships we saw were the Nebula class Prometheus (stock footage of which was used for other ships), the Galaxy class Odyssey and Venture, and the refit Excelsior class Lakota, before new models were built for Voyager such as the Intrepid class and the Greg Jein Excelsior for 'Flashback,' both of which were used in later episodes of DS9.
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Well, I mean, the more you think about it the less it makes sense that there wasn’t a whole fleet of ships nearby, or at least a cruiser protecting the station. For one thing they wanted the Bajorans in the Federation. Okay, there you could say the Bajorans were dubious of another “friendly” power coming in to help them out—the Cardassians came as friends too. But more than that, once the wormhole was discovered, that station became the most important one in half the galaxy. It’s a wonder both a fleet and an entirely new, much bigger, station wasn’t built nearby—one that wasn’t a glorified ore refinery fast dragged into position.
But I mean by the time Starfleet arrived at deep space Bajor, local powers (or others) could have conquered the planet and entrenched themselves into positions there and over the wormhole—that they could have threatened to collapse if the cavalry didn’t back off from.
I could see another series where starfleet was more present and where it ended with, say, the new station coming online.
Plus, I mean, others too in orbit of Bajor. In my head canon that was also a thing.
But I mean by the time Starfleet arrived at deep space Bajor, local powers (or others) could have conquered the planet and entrenched themselves into positions there and over the wormhole—that they could have threatened to collapse if the cavalry didn’t back off from.
I could see another series where starfleet was more present and where it ended with, say, the new station coming online.
Plus, I mean, others too in orbit of Bajor. In my head canon that was also a thing.
Oh, I agree. Unfortunately, the nature of the scripts written for DS9 did not warrant that much of a Starfleet presence, other than the officers posted to the station, and the runabouts to get them places.
Bajor was still not part of the Federation; therefore, it was not Federation Space, thus subject to the wishes of Bajor. I image Starfleet posted a force as close as they dared to region, but they also had to contend with treaties with the Cardassian Union, since they were basically next door in terms of star systems from Bajor.
Now the Federation could have just annexed the system to secure the wormhole, but then Cardassia could call them out as hypocrites and Bajor would likely have tried to blow up the station.
Before the Dominion threat from the other side of the Wormhole, Bajor didn't see a need for more Starfleet in system. They had enough to sway to keep Cardassia away and that was all that mattered to Bajor. But once the Dominion took out the Bajoran colony in the Gamma Quadrant, Bajor wanted more protection. The Station was heavily upgraded. The USS Defiant was assigned to the station, and other Federation starships seemed to more frequently be in system. Though they still didn't have a major fleet assigned there until after they retook the station during the war...again largely because Bajor was not part of the Federation and Sisko made sure they were "neutral" in the lead up to the war to avoid getting destroyed by the Dominion at the very start of the conflict. After the station was retaken, Bajor was allied with the Federation and the fleet was very much welcomed.
Now the Federation could have just annexed the system to secure the wormhole, but then Cardassia could call them out as hypocrites and Bajor would likely have tried to blow up the station.
Before the Dominion threat from the other side of the Wormhole, Bajor didn't see a need for more Starfleet in system. They had enough to sway to keep Cardassia away and that was all that mattered to Bajor. But once the Dominion took out the Bajoran colony in the Gamma Quadrant, Bajor wanted more protection. The Station was heavily upgraded. The USS Defiant was assigned to the station, and other Federation starships seemed to more frequently be in system. Though they still didn't have a major fleet assigned there until after they retook the station during the war...again largely because Bajor was not part of the Federation and Sisko made sure they were "neutral" in the lead up to the war to avoid getting destroyed by the Dominion at the very start of the conflict. After the station was retaken, Bajor was allied with the Federation and the fleet was very much welcomed.
I mean it's too big a prize not to grab. For the Cardassians, or the nearby powers -- Tzenkethi, Talarians, Miradorn, others...even the Ferengi. Once the planet is conquered, it is what it is. Realpolitik. My thought here is that the Alpha powers weren't 100% sure how stable it was or what was on the other side just yet to risk taking it, or, on the Cardassian front, the Federation (Klingons?) fortified its positions along the border so it the Cardassians did take it, they'd lose too much other/important territory to make it worthwhile.
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Mres_was_framed, the universe works in mysterious ways.
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Mres_was_framed, the universe works in mysterious ways.
The dart was more of a Sternbach concept, when he was designing Voyager a couple of years before Eaves worked on the E.
It actually starts with one of the concepts in the TNG TM, the one with the triangular saucer. These were refined to have the pointer primary hull that he later reused for the Prometheus and the Dauntless. But then the producers asked for a curvier ship at the eleventh hour.
I guess one avenue would be to look at the Starfleet ship he did design in 1992, namely the Runabout. The Voyager concept does share some DNA, notably the extremely similar pylons, underslung nacelles and the more angular, utilitarian style than Probert's Galaxy. So maybe that's where his thinking was going?
Alternatively, one of the other TNG TM concepts did have an elliptical saucer like the D, so that could have been an alternative direction.
Would USS Saratoga have worked better for the story if it was an Anti-Borg weapon's platform prototype? Something that Shelby's team had worked up during the year they had and Sisko had been part of that team, now working as First Officer. That would still not answer why his wife and son were onboard, unless Jennifer was important to the weapons research or some other project on the ship (and this assigned there or there to ensure the systems work. Jake being there would be simply they didn't have someone to send him off to on short notice. No stop over at Earth to send him to his Grandfather's restaurant.)
Some other ships that fit the period, or look like they might:
Brilliant Class (fan)
Rodney Class (fan)
USS. Proteus. Starship. (fan)
Unknown. Starship. (fan)
Corvette? (fan)
More images of:
'Galaxy-Era Oberth' (fan)
Victory Class (fan)
Balmung. Class. Starship. (fan)
Ambassador Class (Probert)
...oh what might have been.
Unused Concept:
USS Pegasus
Support Craft:
USS Salvation (fan)
Medical. Ship? (fan)
Goddard. Class. (Probert)
What a Constitution Class might look like in the 24th Century.
Brilliant Class (fan)
Rodney Class (fan)
USS. Proteus. Starship. (fan)
Unknown. Starship. (fan)
Corvette? (fan)
More images of:
'Galaxy-Era Oberth' (fan)
Victory Class (fan)
Balmung. Class. Starship. (fan)
Ambassador Class (Probert)
...oh what might have been.
Unused Concept:
USS Pegasus
Support Craft:
USS Salvation (fan)
Medical. Ship? (fan)
Goddard. Class. (Probert)
What a Constitution Class might look like in the 24th Century.
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I dunno. Seems like the entire function of the Saratoga was to show Sisko watching his wife die and escaping with his son before it got blown to bits. You just need a generic ship for that, not something special like a Borg buster.
Well, we know that there was at least one Freedom-class was present... and it's my favourite of the "Wolf 359" ships!
I did wonder if the Springfield-class may have been intended to be the TNG version of the Oberth, given its underslung (and potentially modular) secondary hull.
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They really could have benefited from rebuilding and reusing these Wolf-459 designs. I thought the Springfield was intended to look odd by its design, like a ship that was supposed to be specialized variant of something else, but that forward facing shot looks outstanding. The Freedom-class would have been a good ship for Sisko to serve on, since it has one nacelle but a fairly large saucer and the Galaxy-classes large flight deck, it could be a colony ship or scout-like cruise for operation far from home, but on relatively planned missions wither fewer destinations (only one nacelle so likely less maneuverable), and the families being there would make sense.
The Freedom’s saucer is much smaller than the Galaxy - if you scale it to the nacelle. The hanger deck is probably no bigger than the Constitution, and the saucer is only a little larger, so it’s likely more of a scout ship doing support missions around the Federation. I would t have thought it was going much further afield with the one nacelle.
A lot of the models that use the Galaxy saucer shape for smaller ships don’t make sense. The interiors would be all wrong—you’d basically walking on the windows.
In many cases it’s a lot of wasted space and puzzling design choices. The Galaxy bridge exterior complex on say a New Orleans is baffling. Why is there a little bump for the dome and the ready room and the turbo lifts and the rest when the whole thing is basically just where the dome would be on that much smaller ship?
In many cases it’s a lot of wasted space and puzzling design choices. The Galaxy bridge exterior complex on say a New Orleans is baffling. Why is there a little bump for the dome and the ready room and the turbo lifts and the rest when the whole thing is basically just where the dome would be on that much smaller ship?
The Freedom is 430m long according to Eaglemoss and EAS, with around half that length being nacelle – assuming it's using the same nacelle as the Nebula and the Galaxy. This might mean that the Freedom has an overpowered warp drive for a ship its size – it's a sprinter and a striker, but lacking in endurance and manoeuvrability.
My head cannon is that it originally had a different nacelle and was upgraded, because the rest of the ship doesn't really suggest Galaxy-era.
Or alternatively that it was some kind of limited run testbed for the Galaxy nacelle. Which is why we don't see many.
It has the wide elliptical saucer of a Galaxy-era design, but almost everything else about its saucer and neck aesthetics is more Ambassador-y. We might therefore assume it's an early post-Ambassador design that was originally designed for testing next generation (if you'll excuse the pun) engine hardware.
A single nacelle like this would be easy to swap out as a test module without needing to worry about having a balanced pair, or having to customise two units. Maybe the Freedom performed so well that Starfleet saw no reason to decommission them once the Galaxy-class design was finalised. Or they decided to keep the basic design around for testing future nacelles, and there's some really strange post-Wolf 359 variants of the Freedom-class. (This might also explain why the Lower Decks version of the Freedom-class looked quite different... it would be a 2380s refit versus the 2360s "classic" design.)
I have to say that as the Freedom-class is my favourite Wolf 359 ship along with the Cheyenne-class I've had a bit of a headcanon around it for a while and this conversation is helping me crystalise it. I might have to go write and draw something later on...
I'm quite happy to believe that a number of starship classes had very limited runs; because they were created for a specific purpose, there was just low demand for them, or they're enormously resource-intensive. Ships like the Miranda, the Excelsior, and by the 2400s the Sovereign seem to be good enough at most things that they could be safely mass-produced in large numbers without compromising the fleet, and then these small numbers of more specialised ships would fill in the gaps as necessary.
