What ships SHOULD they have used in the Dominion War?

[Arpy]

So perhaps these ships changed roles and got a smaller crew to be able to be used in the procedures happenning during the TNG-era?

Yeah, who knows? The Lantree had a crew of what like 40? Down a lot from TOS sizes closer to 400. Plenty of room for families and whatnot. Depends on what the Saratoga’s role was at the time. Less combat focused if you’re having to drop off the civilians all the time. Maybe those two satellite dish spire add-ons were sensors of some kind—I don’t remember if we saw them fire as weapons.

 

[Dukhat]

We saw the Reliant studio model four times during TNG/DS9/TNG films.

1. Lantree, a Class 6 supply ship with a crew of 26.

2. Brattain, a science vessel with a crew of 35. (First use of the name 'Miranda class' on the dedication plaque)

3. Saratoga, a standard active-duty starship, crew number unknown.

4. Saratoga, a standard active-duty starship rescuing survivors from Veridian III (same name and registry number as above ship despite above ship being destroyed earlier, since the info was never removed from its previous use.)


I am of the opinion that both the Lantree and the Brattain were originally supposed to have been much smaller TNG-era ships distinct from each other, and not reuses of the Reliant filming model from the TMP films. But the producers didn't want to build new models. I also believe that the only reason why the Reliant model was used for Sisko's Saratoga was because it was the smallest in-universe Starfleet vessel (minus the Oberth class which was not a warship) that they could film up close because the model had sufficient detail. I think that if DS9 had a bigger budget, the Saratoga would have been a new model and a new class.

 

[Mres_was_framed!]

We saw the Reliant studio model four times during TNG/DS9/TNG films.

1. Lantree, a Class 6 supply ship with a crew of 26.

2. Brattain, a science vessel with a crew of 35. (First use of the name 'Miranda class' on the dedication plaque)

3. Saratoga, a standard active-duty starship, crew number unknown.

4. Saratoga, a standard active-duty starship rescuing survivors from Veridian III (same name and registry number as above ship despite above ship being destroyed earlier, since the info was never removed from its previous use.)


I am of the opinion that both the Lantree and the Brattain were originally supposed to have been much smaller TNG-era ships distinct from each other, and not reuses of the Reliant filming model from the TMP films. But the producers didn't want to build new models. I also believe that the only reason why the Reliant model was used for Sisko's Saratoga was because it was the smallest in-universe Starfleet vessel (minus the Oberth class which was not a warship) that they could film up close because the model had sufficient detail. I think that if DS9 had a bigger budget, the Saratoga would have been a new model and a new class.

I think that you are right they would have used another ship for the TNG uses, not sure about the Saratoga, but at least they got it somewhat consistent that the Miranda class was being used for transporting cargo in the TNG-era. Although the Saratoga's purpose was not defined in DS9.

 

[Arpy]

You can see a lot more originality and creativity and congruity with fan-made ships fitting in the Enterprise-C and Enterprise-D eras than they were able to use in the series, in which they were forced to reuse built models, on the cheap. In this thread, “What ships SHOULD they have used…” I’m much more interested in the former than the latter. Indeed, I think it was Sternbach himself, remarking on a lot of fan art, who didn’t understand 3D modelers’ creative talent being used to rebuild existing ships instead of creating new ones of their own.

 

[publiusr]

I’m with EC Henry—at least with Star Wars ships.

Star Wars craft are about buildable designs with greebles

Trek ships come from woodworking

CGI designs can be a bit slick…

 

[Dukhat]

I think that you are right they would have used another ship for the TNG uses, not sure about the Saratoga, but at least they got it somewhat consistent that the Miranda class was being used for transporting cargo in the TNG-era. Although the Saratoga's purpose was not defined in DS9.

As I said, if DS9 had had a larger budget, I'm sure they would have built a new model for the Saratoga (as it was seen relatively up close) and would have continued to use that model for any guest starships later in the seasons. Or not. Maybe they just didn't care about having a new guest starship.

 

[Arpy]

It was an effects heavy series premier and that affected the rest of the season. A new Saratoga model would have been extremely difficult, and they chose their battles.

 

[Arpy]

There are a number of fan (and official) ships from this old thread that fit the period, including:

Saber Class, Mark II (fan)
Orion Class (fan)
Victory Class (fan)
Coontz Class (fan)
Apollo Class (fan) — variant
Balmung Class (fan)
'Galaxy-Era Oberth' (fan)
Federation Starliner (comics)
Narendra Class (ST Online)
New Orleans Class
Cheyenne Class
Olympic Class, pre-lit, lit

 

[Dukhat]

It was an effects heavy series premier and that affected the rest of the season. A new Saratoga model would have been extremely difficult, and they chose their battles.

The effects would have been the same whether they used the Reliant model or a new model. The only difference was the budget to build said model.

 

[Arpy]

The effects would have been the same whether they used the Reliant model or a new model. The only difference was the budget to build said model.

I think ship models fall under special effects. Either way, the point was that they spent too much on the episodes (and on the amortized sets, models, etc) to spend even more on another model.

 

[Ithekro]

Build and blow up said model. Saratoga explodes rather violently.

 

[Dukhat]

I think ship models fall under special effects. Either way, the point was that they spent too much on the episodes (and on the amortized sets, models, etc) to spend even more on another model.

I agree that they probably wouldn't have built a new model for the Saratoga even if they had the budget, since 90% of the show took place on the station. But...

Build and blow up said model. Saratoga explodes rather violently.

They actually had to build three more smaller scale pyro models of the Saratoga for those scenes. If it were me, I would have designed a new model of the Saratoga consisting of just a saucer and one nacelle, since that would have drastically simplified the construction of the three pyro models.

 

[Arpy]

I agree that they probably wouldn't have built a new model for the Saratoga even if they had the budget, since 90% of the show took place on the station.

You know, if they had the budget for it, if might have been interesting to have a ship that’s not assigned to the station but a recurring one that’s maybe the Starfleet presence in the sector, that comes by time and again. Maybe it would be too much of a coincidence for it to be the same class Sisko previously served on, though.

I love Admiral Janeway’s crew on PRO. It would have been cool if either in this ship, or maybe the Defiant when it was assigned to the station, if it had a few very familiar aliens from the Federation representing its greater presence now in the sector. Would be an opportunity to play with the provincial bigotries and fears of the outsiders of the Bajorans too. Say if the tactical officer and pilot were an Andorian and a Tellarite. Of course that would mean even more budget for the makeups and recurring cast members.

 

[Dukhat]

You know, if they had the budget for it, if might have been interesting to have a ship that’s not assigned to the station but a recurring one that’s maybe the Starfleet presence in the sector, that comes by time and again. Maybe it would be too much of a coincidence for it to be the same class Sisko previously served on, though.

I doubt the producers would have cared about the coincidence. But look at it another way: Let's say they did build a new model for the Saratoga. Here's what could have happened.

1. They would have most likely retired the Reliant studio model.

2. They would undoubtedly have used it for the Prometheus instead of the Nebula class model they recycled for a ship far too large to be commanded by a lieutenant j.g.

3. They would probably have used it for both the Lakota and the Malinche.

4. By the time of the Dominion war, they would almost certainly have scanned the physical model into CGI, and it would have taken the place of all those old Miranda class ships.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

2. They would undoubtedly have used it for the Prometheus instead of the Nebula class model they recycled for a ship far too large to be commanded by a lieutenant j.g.

I'd've been up for that.

3. They would probably have used it for both the Lakota and the Malinche.

Maybe the Malinche (given that it subbed for the Defiant a small to medium-sized "patrol vessel" makes sense but the Lakota's role in HF/PL definitely seems like that of a "bigger ship" to me.

However, given that we're already supposing the existence of a replacement for the Miranda-class we could also reasonably suppose that an "Excelsior replacement" model is also available (let's say the Ambassador for the sake of argument) which could be used here.

 

[Arpy]

I doubt the producers would have cared about the coincidence.

That’s not a good thing.

But look at it another way: Let's say they did build a new model for the Saratoga. Here's what could have happened.

1. They would have most likely retired the Reliant studio model.

2. They would undoubtedly have used it for the Prometheus instead of the Nebula class model they recycled for a ship far too large to be commanded by a lieutenant j.g.

3. They would probably have used it for both the Lakota and the Malinche.

4. By the time of the Dominion war, they would almost certainly have scanned the physical model into CGI, and it would have taken the place of all those old Miranda class ships.

I’m okay with them retiring the Miranda—at least for anything combat related.

I could see them using it (the starship assigned to the sector) in place of the Prometheus. It would have had greater resonance if that’s the one that was disabled in lieu of the Malinche too.

The Lakota was Benteen’s ship, Leyton’s right hand, and too far from the Bajoran sector to be the one they used. Also good to mix things us a little, yeah? Not use one ship the entire time.

Again I’m good with this ship taking the place of the Mirandas. That is, if the ship is the appropriate size. I was thinking commander on an entire space station, one whose task is to clean up after the Occupation and convince a new member to enter the Federation, might need to be a commander of a much larger this than a Miranda. Maybe an Ambassador Class. They could have used that model, or sprung for a Narendra.

Anyway, I think if they did have this other recurring ship and characters, we’d probably see it a lot more and use it for some interesting stories of its own.

Maybe it’s the ship that is lost in “The Jem’Hadar,” too, not the Odyssey. I mean, it would have been a huge punch to the gut to lose those characters we’d gotten to know for years. And next season we’d get the Defiant to leave the station with.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Maybe an Ambassador Class. They could have used that model, or sprung for a Narendra.

I'd say the Niagara-class would've been the more likely model to be used at the time rather than the Narenda, alternatively the Ambassador-style "Pegasus Concept Model" might actually have been produced as one of the two replacements.

 

[Dukhat]

However, given that we're already supposing the existence of a replacement for the Miranda-class we could also reasonably suppose that an "Excelsior replacement" model is also available (let's say the Ambassador for the sake of argument) which could be used here.

By that time the Ambassador model had been damaged and crated up, so they weren't going to be using it.

The Lakota was Benteen’s ship, Leyton’s right hand, and too far from the Bajoran sector to be the one they used. Also good to mix things us a little, yeah? Not use one ship the entire time.

I don't mind mixing up ships. I minded them using old models from the films rather than building new ones.

Again I’m good with this ship taking the place of the Mirandas. That is, if the ship is the appropriate size. I was thinking commander on an entire space station, one whose task is to clean up after the Occupation and convince a new member to enter the Federation, might need to be a commander of a much larger this than a Miranda. Maybe an Ambassador Class. They could have used that model, or sprung for a Narendra.

Yeah, I would have wanted the ship to have been roughly Miranda sized.

 

[Arpy]

By that time the Ambassador model had been damaged and crated up, so they weren't going to be using it.

Hmmm, they used it in the same battle for the Yamaguchi. When was it damaged? Maybe it wouldn’t have if things had happened differently.

Re the Narendra, I’m just using that as a shorter term for the Probert version of the Ambassador Class. Dunno the first thing about the Narendra itself in STO. Point is, they could have done the ship/refit right and gotten many years use out of it—a design you’d think would’ve been ubiquitous at this time.

 

[Dukhat]

Hmmm, they used it in the same battle for the Yamaguchi. When was it damaged? Maybe it wouldn’t have if things had happened differently.

It was damaged some time between its final use in Emissary and Star Trek Generations (they were going to use the model as one of the Veridian III evacuation ships but it had been damaged by that time.) If it hadn't been damaged and crated up and instead used for Generations, its refurbishment by ILM would have almost certainly allowed it to have been scanned into a CGI model for the Dominion war fleets.