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What Right Did Janeway Have to Force the Ferenghi Home?

It's a quasi-utopia. If monetary and material wealth are no longer the sole driving force on earth in the 24th century than why are federation credits still a thing? Forget interplanetary commerce, what about debt? If destitution doesn't exist than how're credits accumulated and do the lazy self-interested citizens who contribute less to keeping utopia utopic acquire the same amount? If food and other necessities of life don't warrant payment what resources and items do cost money?

Distraction and recreation are the same thing. If the kruger-Dunning effect is a universal constant than you will still have stupid people unaware of how stupid they are. It's hard to believe the layman would give up strip clubs (you can't put credit in a stripper's G-string) and toys and narcotics for the benefit of mankind because the layman doesn't have esoteric motivations.

Forest Gump got into the armed forces, with DNA re-sequencing illegal in the federation unless deemed absolutely necessary, how many Gumps do you want packing phasers?
 
And why should she have listened to them?

Janeway knew what the Ferengi were capable of. No other race in the Delta Quadrant did. She was entirely justified in warning others of the Ferengi nature and trying to protect innocent people from their predatory and exploitative tactics. And there is no Starfleet Command in that quadrant to keep her from doing so, not that they would have tried.

Besides, since the Ferengi themselves are already interfering with a pre-warp civilization, how can it be a violation of the Prime Directive for Janeway to try and correct such interference? You are claiming that the Ferengi have the right to do whatever they want in this instance, so why does Janeway have less of a right to try and fight against what they're doing?

Because she's interfering in another cultures business. The whole point of the prime directive is that she shouldn't. The fact that she thinks she can because they're Ferenghi just highlights the way humans view Ferenghi.

Instead of the Ferenghi making a profit, had it been an advanced Delta quadrant power killing and eating the natives, would Janeway have got involved?

No. Prime directive.
 
It's a quasi-utopia. If monetary and material wealth are no longer the sole driving force on earth in the 24th century than why are federation credits still a thing? Forget interplanetary commerce, what about debt? If destitution doesn't exist than how're credits accumulated and do the lazy self-interested citizens who contribute less to keeping utopia utopic acquire the same amount? If food and other necessities of life don't warrant payment what resources and items do cost money?

Distraction and recreation are the same thing. If the kruger-Dunning effect is a universal constant than you will still have stupid people unaware of how stupid they are. It's hard to believe the layman would give up strip clubs (you can't put credit in a stripper's G-string) and toys and narcotics for the benefit of mankind because the layman doesn't have esoteric motivations.

Forest Gump got into the armed forces, with DNA re-sequencing illegal in the federation unless deemed absolutely necessary, how many Gumps do you want packing phasers?

The Federation is 150 signatory planets with billions of people on each world, and probably dozens of additional planets associated with each signatory planet, with yet billions more citizens calling loose colonies, starbases and moons "home" under the protection of a signatory worlds, or the Federation as a whole.

90 trillion is a number I heard once talking about Federation population, but it was a novel.

Maybe 95 percent of the Federation would have to be lazy, idle and stupid to stay out of the way enough of the gogetters with actual potential, as well as the delusional gogetters like Dicky Bashir.

(A reasonable assumption from the evidence is...)

Internally there is no money because there is almost infinite resources, and no scarcity.

Externally, some/most aliens want to be paid when they do work for the Federation, or expect recompense from giving the Federation commodities.

Credits are for aliens, and very few civilians in the Federation probably accept credits or know what to do with them if offered, much like a Discovery Card in the 21st Century.

Federation Civilians don't seem to treat Aliens any differently than other Federation civilians. They just hand over goods and services without asking for remuneration, because they don't know what money is (as a first language).

Federation Citizens travelling intergalactically must be like Europeans visiting America who refuse to embrace the tradition of "tipping". (I'm nonAmerican, and it seems super weird, but when in Rome.)

Archer left Earth with no money and had to strip his ships plumbing for platinum when it came time to pay a bill good will couldn't cash.
 
Federation has overcome scarcity and povertry and that's a big leap forward.

But still we have humans being humans. Kirk doesn't like the Klingons. heh-heh. O'Brien doesn't like the Cardassians. Admirals Leighton, Pressman and Co act up. It's all humans still being humans.
 
Humans externally of humans express "isms".

Attacking that which is different is hard wired, and overcome with effort.

All humans by the 23rd century, sorry, most humans by the 23rd century perceive all other humans as the same.
 
Racism is shown to be entirely present amongst humans in the 24th century. It's just no longer internal and is directed at the funny aliens.

Janeway is a Ferenghi racist.

If racism exists for Johnny alien then maybe sexism and homophobia do too. Gays on Earth are treated equally but as soon as humans arrive on Dunarbia IV, they instantly start mocking the Dunarbian gays because they walk funny.
 
Well, that really depends on your definition of the word "race".

Early Europeans Explorers considered every aboriginal group they "found" as some where between nonhuman and animals depending on the level of barbarism these natives were reveling in when "discovered" because they were entitled dicks.

Ethnographic division into races from Meyers Konversationslexikon of 1885-90 is listing:

Caucasian races (Aryans, Hamites, Semites)

Mongolian races (northern Mongolian, Chinese and Indo-Chinese, Japanese and Korean, Tibetan, Malayan, Polynesian, Maori, Micronesian, Eskimo, American Indian),

Negroid races (African, Hottentots, Melanesians/Papua, “Negrito”, Australian Aborigine, Dravidians, Sinhalese)

Language changes.

The United Nations, in a 1950 statement, opted to “drop the term ‘race’ altogether and speak of “ethnic groups”. In this case, there are more than 5,000 ethnic groups in the world,

Speciesism really seems like the word you're clutching for, even though terms like "the human race" and "alien races" seems altogether very common in my head, race is a homonym and you're just fucking with us.

:)
 
So what's homophobia when it's directed at species that are not homo-sapiens?

Was there a Federation contest to find a new word?

Who won?

Why isn't there a novel covering this for Christ's sake!
 
Antixenophillia.

Universaltranslation has a psychic component. Concepts are expressed as sounds that are understood perfectly as concepts.

No one.

Jim Kirk's gay nephew was fucking a Klingon in a novel 25 years ago. I pity anyone who still finds such a scenario as risque.
 
Surely xenophilliaphobia.

It's a Kirk family tradition to fuck with Klingons.

I still say Janeway is a Ferenghi racist. Ferenghipbobic intolerance must not be allowed.
 
Because she's interfering in another cultures business. The whole point of the prime directive is that she shouldn't. The fact that she thinks she can because they're Ferenghi just highlights the way humans view Ferenghi.

Instead of the Ferenghi making a profit, had it been an advanced Delta quadrant power killing and eating the natives, would Janeway have got involved?

No. Prime directive.

The Ferengi are also interfering in that culture. If they have the right to do that, why doesn't Janeway have the right to stop them?

And it isn't "racist" to try and stop what the Ferengi are doing in this episode. It's obvious that they are exploiting and enslaving the natives - we can see it. That is an objective evil and must be stopped, Prime Directive be damned.

Besides, as has already been pointed out, it's technically the Federation which started the whole mess, since they hosted the trade conference which (via the unstable Barzan wormhole) actually GOT the Ferengi stranded in the Delta Quadrant in the first place. So that's another reason Janeway is doing this.
 
The Ferengi are also interfering in that culture. If they have the right to do that, why doesn't Janeway have the right to stop them?

Because Starfleet has a prime directive. The Ferenghi don't. They are free to do whatever they want with any culture they want. The prime directive states you should not interfere with other cultures. That's the difference. Janeway has no right to interfere with the planet or the Ferenghi. None whatsoever.

And it isn't "racist" to try and stop what the Ferengi are doing in this episode. It's obvious that they are exploiting and enslaving the natives - we can see it. That is an objective evil and must be stopped, Prime Directive be damned.

It is racist because if it had been a native Delta quadrant species exploiting the planet, Janeway would not have got involved. In fact, I bet she would have made a Picard-esque speech about the high-mindedness of a non-interference policy. That it's those unpleasant Ferenghi doing it means she's not gonna stand for it.

Besides, as has already been pointed out, it's technically the Federation which started the whole mess, since they hosted the trade conference which (via the unstable Barzan wormhole) actually GOT the Ferengi stranded in the Delta Quadrant in the first place. So that's another reason Janeway is doing this.

How exactly is it the Federation's fault that two irksome Ferenghi chose to travel into a wormhole? The Federation made no mess. The Federation are under no obligation to clean up anything.

And even if they were, cleaning up every Federation mess would take forever. What about the mess Voyager's presence made to the quadrant. Who will clean that up? The next Federation ship that gets lost on the Delta quadrant?

Prime directive means nothing to these people. It's all for show.
 
I like DS9 as a critique of TNG's utopianism, showing how the principles of peace apply to a universe that is not peaceful. Sisko didn't murder that ambassador, Garak did, and Sisko willfully turned the other way, and if he had not done that, the entire Federation would have been conquered. It leaves you to answer the question whether utopian principles morally outweigh the death of your entire civilization. Like, if you could have lived with yourself if you had an opportunity to stop a holocaust by murdering one person and chose not to because murder is wrong. Critique of utopianism fits just as much into Star Trek as utopianism.

Well sisko didn't just sacrifice one man. He tricked entire romulan empire into war which resulted, probably, in countless romulan victims.
So he just preferred murder of romulans instead of humans. Understandable.

But Original Trek and TNG where not about utopian universe. They where about utopian Earth. What I mean, they dealt with topics like racism, euthanasia etc. so our problems here and now. and they did it in an original and fun way.
The point was to show US we can live all in peace and evolve. it wasn't about intergalactic politics and wars what DS9 turned trek into.

Don't get me wrong I enjoy both DS9 and VOY but they did cheapen trek.

First, Sisko's sales pitch was absolutely right that if the Romulans hadn't joined with the Federation they would have been conquered later and probably had greater casualties than they did in the war. But yes, Picard was never asked a question as difficult as "Would you violate your ideals if the alternative was the complete destruction of your way of life?"

DS9 still had a utopian Earth, the only difference is that in TNG, they were able to win enemies over with moral speeches or talk them into political standoffs. It never addressed what would have happened if they ever met an enemy for whom that was not the case.

If you're crediting TNG for talking about the problems we had now, it did, but usually safe issues in a trite way. It never stepped into the gray areas where there was not a morally perfect answer. Homefront/Paradise Lost made a much stronger moral statement than TNG ever did about anything. TNG's moral issues all had simplistic answers. DS9 pointing out the cases where the answer is not simplistic strengthened the franchise, it didn't weaken it.

And if you're suggesting that TOS and TNG always followed the prime directive, I have to wonder if we were watching the same show. How is Janeway getting rid of the Ferengi any different than Kirk rescuing the thralls from the brains, or destroying the mechanical gods of multiple different planets?

I'm not even sure the Federation taking sides in a war where one nation is attacking or enslaving another defenseless nation violates the prime directive. If it were a planet officially recognized as part of the Ferengi Alliance it would be internal matters of the Ferengi, but it was not. Just like if Romulus were to invade a prewarp planet on the outskirts of Federation space, it would not violate the PD to interfere.
 
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Monetizing religion is not slavery.

I could say something horrible about the Catholics, or I could just say "Scientology".

Yes, it's exactly like Scientology. Manipulating vulnerable people into working exclusively for your benefit. Not all slavery involves chains, it can also come from behavioral conditioning.
 
Look, we all know that Janeway is a cream-filled nutcake who spends her evenings chewing on the skulls of babies and when she's not attempting genocide or murdering Tuvix, she's petulantly sulking because Chakotay stopped her from killing Lessing but...

What, in the name of buggery, did she think she was doing in False Profits? The Ferenghi are not part of the Federation and she has absolutely no right telling Arridor and Kol that they must return with her to the Alpha quadrant. Hell, she doesn't even have the right to tell them to wipe their arses.

No Federation jurisdiction, no prime directive issue, none of her God damn business.

What if, instead of the Ferenghi, it had been the Grumparians (a native Delta quadrant species) fleecing the Ga'Nah province with advanced technology. Would she still stick her oar in? Is it the Federation's responsibility to police the entire galaxy?

Oh and if captain Insaneway hadn't pissed about attempting to force the Ferenghi to do things she had absolutely no right forcing them to do, she could have used the frikkin Barzan wormhole to get home.

Idiot!

First, IMO this is one of the worst episodes of the series. Feckless portrayal of a race that the writer thought we'd care about more than another new DQ one being introduced, simply because we know about them and their backstory, as well as how this pair specifically wound up in the quadrant. Then tiresome machinations by our stalwarts in removing them. Notwithstanding , it's worth discussion, just like any other episode of whatever quality.

I'm not sure how much of your pitch it just a put-on. If you really have such animus towards Janeway, fine, but you're laying the gratuitous barbs on so facetiously I think it's hard to take what follows that seriously. By the way, I don't think I'm mistaken in recaling, that you supported her decision about Tuvix, but no matter.
You go into further silliness later, but the crux of the argument, as regards to violating the PD by taking the course of action that was portrayed, is explicitly not supported in Memory Alpha. I won't claim that their aren't other sources that are more authoritative on the subject, but since you haven't cited any, it doesn't put your rant on firm ground, exactly.

Further, that Janeway wouldn't have done the same thing if she had been dealing in an exactly analogous situation, but involving two DQ cultures, is pure supposition backed up by, well, nothing. If I'm blanking on such an instance, not impossible, please remind me of the episode. .


Exceptions

"There can be no justice so long as laws are absolute. Even life itself is an exercise in exceptions." - Captain Jean-Luc Picard (TNG: "Justice") There were many exceptions to the applicability of the Prime Directive that were accepted by the Federation. Each was driven by the context of the situation, the society, and the circumstances at the moment. These were typically not full exceptions that voided the Prime Directive entirely; it was only suspended to the extent minimally necessary to address the matter at hand (e.g., answer a hail, provide rescue assistance). Also, actions were to be handled in a way that attempted to minimize the interference resulting from the limited suspension. For example, the attempted "repair" of prior cultural interference was not, itself, to be done in a way that would lead to even greater interference. (TOS: "A Piece of the Action") These exceptions generally fell into the following categories:

  • The society was previously interfered with by non-Federation citizens (e.g., Klingons) in a manner that would have violated the Prime Directive had it been done by Starfleet personnel (TOS: "A Private Little War"; VOY: "False Profits")


The Ferengi are an inherently untrustworthy race, so I can't blame Janeway for trying to protect unsuspecting innocent people from them.

All well and good but Janeway has absolutely no legal influence here.

Perhaps not, but neither do the Ferengi.

She's basically just embracing might is right. The Ferenghi should have just told her to piss off.
And why should she have listened to them?

Janeway knew what the Ferengi were capable of. No other race in the Delta Quadrant did. She was entirely justified in warning others of the Ferengi nature and trying to protect innocent people from their predatory and exploitative tactics. And there is no Starfleet Command in that quadrant to keep her from doing so, not that they would have tried.

Besides, since the Ferengi themselves are already interfering with a pre-warp civilization, how can it be a violation of the Prime Directive for Janeway to try and correct such interference? You are claiming that the Ferengi have the right to do whatever they want in this instance, so why does Janeway have less of a right to try and fight against what they're doing?

Exactly correct.

Gene wrote cowboy stories for cop shows.
Old dinosaur, casting couch letch.

The planet looked like it didn't have a global government. Medieval. Childlike. It requires restraint from advanced species not to think about tattooing barcodes onto the foreheads of slaves, or strip mining on a planetary scale. Also how many villages were these "businessmen" preying on? It can't just have been the single village square, and the 40 people living near by. Yes, it's rude, to con these people, but these were the same rubes who were lighting a bonfire to BBQ our friendly neighbourhood Ferengi on. Seriously, 7 years to milk one village poorly? Not a threat, leave the alone.

They had indeed spread their con to other areas, as thier native flunky was described as being in charge of collections from the Ga'nah Province. No real reason to think that they didn't have operations going on elsewhere as well, even if unstated.


She's basically just embracing might is right. The Ferenghi should have just told her to piss off.
And why should she have listened to them?

You do remember that the Ferengi used the correct legal arguments, and Janeway backed down because she was acting like a dick.

It's not stated at the time of Arridor's flim-flam speech or afterwards when the command staff is breaking down the situation in the briefing room, that the reason for Janeway sending them back was because Arridor's argument referenced or represented a breach in the PD. The sense seemed to be that his maintaining the harm that would be done to the Tarkarians' spiritual beliefs by removing them from the planet, was taken at face value as a constraining rationale by Janeway et al. This line of reasoning was kind of specious, because, at some point, if it wasn't already the case, the Ferengi would have polluted the belief system however they attempted to shoehorn their business practices as somehow being warranted by those beliefs. Essentially, as was often the case, Janeway was practicing undue restraint in trying to construct unnecessary and superfluous tactics to justify righteous decisions to the nth degree. In this instance, the effort wasn't worthwhile, as the Ferengi made no legal argument that had Janeway by the short hairs, correct or otherwise.

Monetizing religion is not slavery.

I could say something horrible about the Catholics, or I could just say "Scientology".

Unfortunately, IMO, this is the way of thinking about the latter that causes so much controversy about it here and elsewhere. The understanding of Scientology should clearly be that it isn't a religion at all , nor a cult. It's strictly a business, invented by an inveterate huckster, all of whose endeavors, from his crap literature to his various "spiritual" inventions, were meant to move as much product on foolish suckers, as possible. If the action could be legally countenanced, Scientology should treated as the fake endeavor that it is, taxed the hell out of and then shut down for its patently ludicrous health inducing claims.

And why should she have listened to them?

Janeway knew what the Ferengi were capable of. No other race in the Delta Quadrant did. She was entirely justified in warning others of the Ferengi nature and trying to protect innocent people from their predatory and exploitative tactics. And there is no Starfleet Command in that quadrant to keep her from doing so, not that they would have tried.

Besides, since the Ferengi themselves are already interfering with a pre-warp civilization, how can it be a violation of the Prime Directive for Janeway to try and correct such interference? You are claiming that the Ferengi have the right to do whatever they want in this instance, so why does Janeway have less of a right to try and fight against what they're doing?

Because she's interfering in another cultures business. The whole point of the prime directive is that she shouldn't. The fact that she thinks she can because they're Ferenghi just highlights the way humans view Ferenghi.

Instead of the Ferenghi making a profit, had it been an advanced Delta quadrant power killing and eating the natives, would Janeway have got involved?

No. Prime directive.

Just a repetition of what's stated above. In this case, the business you speak of is one of an advanced civilization, bastardizing a pre-industrial culture's core beliefs, exploiting the population with promises of material improvement while furthering their impoverishment, and basically retarding whatever organic development that the Tarkians might eventually achieve otherwise. You got the last line right. No PD because it clearly can be rightfully circumvented here, not even dependent on an individual command officer's interpretation, which is also allowed in certain cases.

Racism is shown to be entirely present amongst humans in the 24th century. It's just no longer internal and is directed at the funny aliens.

Janeway is a Ferenghi racist.

If racism exists for Johnny alien then maybe sexism and homophobia do too. Gays on Earth are treated equally but as soon as humans arrive on Dunarbia IV, they instantly start mocking the Dunarbian gays because they walk funny.

Uh, what the hell are you going on about now? I don't think I require needing to ask for verification that would show that Janeway likely never said word one about them prior to this episode (or after for that matter) and certainly nothing that was racist, by any realistic understanding of the term. If you're seriously contending otherwise, strictly because of her totally justifiable position of shutting down their con game, as it had no legitimate standing to be allowed to continue, then you're adding a whole new and different level of context and understanding to the concept and practice of racism.

So, I guess satisfied that you've made the case for this issue, you spin off to a flight of fancy about two other negative behaviors that aren't related to this episode, but just to be thrown out there as if there's an a priori connection and proven validation, flowing from the original false premise. Where, by the way, is Dunarbia IV? I'll take it for granted that it's a mock construction, the likes of which never actually happened in a 24th century series, but which is being trotted out as a conceit, again, if being done seriously, providing you another rhetorical victory.

So what's homophobia when it's directed at species that are not homo-sapiens?
Was there a Federation contest to find a new word?
Who won?
Why isn't there a novel covering this for Christ's sake!

Why is this "concern" even being brought up? Why not opt to talk instead about the real and obvious lack of gay relationship representation in the Starfleet realm itself? Perhaps you have done so before, but at least that's a subject that can be discussed as an actually worthwhile issue, not an inane riff.

I'm not exactly a whimsical teller of tall tales, so if I've only managed to needlessly harangue a sincere effort of yours at satire or comedy, I genuinely apologize. But if you're really of a mind that you're telling it like it is, it might help the persuasiveness of the presentation to stay on point and not play so fast and loose with the reality of the situation as it actually was portrayed.

And if you're suggesting that TOS and TNG always followed the prime directive, I have to wonder if we were watching the same show. How is Janeway getting rid of the Ferengi any different than Kirk rescuing the thralls from the brains, or destroying the mechanical gods of multiple different planets?

I'm not even sure the Federation taking sides in a war where one nation is attacking or enslaving another defenseless nation violates the prime directive. If it were a planet officially recognized as part of the Ferengi Alliance it would be internal matters of the Ferengi, but it was not. Just like if Romulus were to invade a prewarp planet on the outskirts of Federation space, it would not violate the PD to interfere.

Once again, you've nailed it! Bravo!!!!:techman:
 
Monetizing religion is not slavery.

I could say something horrible about the Catholics, or I could just say "Scientology".

Yes, it's exactly like Scientology. Manipulating vulnerable people into working exclusively for your benefit. Not all slavery involves chains, it can also come from behavioral conditioning.

That sounds exactly like a professional production (sorry, "fan film") group I've been reading about!

Sorry for the OT. ;)
 
What right did Kirk have shutting down all those alien computers that controlled the lives, welfare and fate of indigenous non-Federation planets?

Janeway's actions here are merely an extension of what was done the previous century, except this is about living being oppressing living beings and not evil computers.
 
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