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What is your opinion of Shakespeare?

To a certain extent, I believe Shakespeare--like most things--is highly overrated. But...I also believe he was still one hell of a playwright and his works are among the very few that have withstood the test of time, and deservedly so. IMO, Shakespeare's magic is when it's a performed experience more so than words on a page...
 
Titus Andronicus is stunning - it's like Stephen King, Jackie Collins and Thomas Harris all rolled into one writing for The Bold and The Beautiful.

You just can't get plots like that any more :techman:

Effin' A! :cool:

I would die to know what was going through S's mind when he wrote it.

I mean, it's seriously f!#$ed up stuff- feeding his enemy her sons with maddened glee, slaying his own daughter before his enemies and let's not forget self dismemberments left right and centre. And that's just the broadstrokes, as you know.

Was he dumped or something? :lol:

But damn, isn't it compelling!

We saw the Anthony Hopkins version in "Shakespeare in Film" class (I was an English major). SO bizarre. Yet I was the only one laughing, besides the professor, and I hate gory movies. I asked the professor whether it was supposed to be so over the top as to not be taken seriously, which is what I was thinking? Evidently, it was.

I learned there are lots of underlying themes and wordplay.
 
I enjoy Shakespeare, and while I think he's a touch overrated in some circles, I will say that he is exceptionally brilliant.


I like Shakespeare. Marc Alaimo, Jeffrey Combs and Casey Biggs did some scenes from the works of Shakespeare (with Combs playing an improbable Juliet) during their appearance at Creation Vegas. It was very well received.

They concluded their performance with a reading of this:

Are you one who considers Shakespeare's words outdated, difficult to understand?
When you hear Shakespeare do you say it's Greek to me?

You are quoting William Shakespeare.

Have you ever enjoyed a game played fast and loose?
Have you suffered from green-eyed jealousy?
Do you ever remember being tongue-tied or in a pickle? Have you ever been a laughing stock?
If the truth were known, you are quoting Shakespeare.

Have you slept not one wink?
Did you suspect foul play in an attempted assassination?Were you waiting patiently as the truth will out?
Have you stood on ceremony and insisted on fair play?
How many have stubbornly refused to budge an inch?
Do you consider you are more sinned against than sinning?
Is it your habit to act more in sorrow than in anger?
Have you knitted your brow without rhyme or reason?

For goodness sake, you are quoting Shakespeare.
Can you be a tower of strength for your family?
Will you admit when it’s too much of a good thing?
Have you seen better days?
Did you ever consider something to be an eyesore?

To give the devil his due, you are quoting Shakespeare.
Did you ever laugh yourself into stitches?
Or wish you were dead as a doornail?
Is it high time to send me packing?

I hope they decide to do this at Chicago Con this year!
 
To a certain extent, I believe Shakespeare--like most things--is highly overrated.

Hrmhrm.jpg
 
Shakespeare was brillliant. To understand just how brilliant he was, it helps to compare his works to those of his contemporaries, like Christopher Marlowe's Doctor Faustus, or The Devil's Charter by Barnabe Barnes. The difference in quality is quite striking.

Not all of his works are to my taste--I prefer his tragedies to anything else he wrote. And like all playwrights, his work is really intended to be performed rather than read. That said--I really do think he deserves his reputation as the greatest poet in the English language.

Shakespeare was there, and he compared his work to Christopher Marlowe's: The verdict was, Marlowe was good enough to imitate. A lot. As they say, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. If it had been Shakespeare who had died at 29? Except that Shakespeare was far too conformist to have gotten into such trouble. In addition to his real excellences, that conformism is one reason why Shakespeare is held up as the ideal the way he is. If Shakespeare didn't think the quality was so strikingly different, I've no idea why anyone else would think so.

The notion that Shakespeare is the greatest poet in English is sort of peculiar. Frankly, Venus and Adonis has it over Marlowe's Hero and Leander mostly by being more ostentatiously hetero, and The Rape of Lucrece is a pill. Edmund Spenser's poetry was near as I can tell technically more accomplished. Even the sonnets are much more of a mixed bag than is often conceded. While some are indeed classic poems, others are labored, and a few are petty. But, part of Shakespeare's greatness is what he wasn't, namely, the disreputable Marlowe.

Partly Shakespeare played a role in forming the new national language (as opposed to regional variants further from London, like Spenser's.) But really, is Shakespeare's contribution so much greater than Geoffrey Chaucer's, who can fairly be claimed to actually have created English as a language capable of poetry? Shakespeare's claim to be the English national poet started with the history plays laying out the history of
"England," aka the Tudors. And when the English conquered most of the world, Shakespeare went along as the emblem of their cultural superiorty.

Also, part of it is that Shakespeare was not just a great poet, but a dramatic poet. Verse drama was a form that only briefly flourished. Temporary as it was, its grandeur (when successful,) gave it the role played by the epic in other literatures. It was a national touchstone. Verse drama has an elevated tone not shared by recent drama, despite the occasional attempt to revive it.

In this respect it is notable that Shakespeare was a pioneer in prose drama. I think that is because part of Shakespeare's greatness as a poet was demotic. He heard the poetry in common speech. The really striking thing about Shakespeare was the relative lack of influence by Latin and Greek drama and poetry.

Despite the popularity of a handful of the tragedies, I still think that it is the comedies that really display Shakespeare's genius. The comedies really are rooted in human nature in a way the tragedies aren't, plus they are mostly free of the Tudor/monarchist rah-rah that peeps out of the tragedies.
 
A bad teacher can strip away all that is human from Shakespeare and leave the student with cold dead meaningless words. A good teacher can make the stories transcend the page and soar through a person's imagination.

I've had plenty of bad ones and one good teacher.

This is so true. Sadly, none of my high school English teachers were in any way inspiring, and I struggled with Shakespeare then. Now I greatly enjoy most of his work. I only ever studied his plays in school, and didn't know then that he'd written sonnets as well. As someone mentioned earlier, schools should teach some of Shakespeare's sonnets as well as the plays. It's a more gentle introduction to Shakespeare. My introduction to Shakespeare was Julius Caesar, which was pretty intense (though I loved the Wayne and Shuster spoof!)
 
stj your comments about the Tudor influance is so spot on. I've always said it was a shame Bill couldn't do a "true" Henry VIII.
 
Frankly, Venus and Adonis has it over Marlowe's Hero and Leander mostly by being more ostentatiously hetero

I haven't read either, but I can't see how that can be a criterion for making one poem better than the other.

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned A Midsummer Night's Dream. It may not be a heavyweight, but it's a fun play (I played Lysander in a production once, some years ago).

Of the plays I've read, about the only one I didn't particularly enjoy was King Lear. I could never muster up any sympathy for Lear - not that you're supposed to, I guess, but I thought he was a complete idiot.
 
Frankly, Venus and Adonis has it over Marlowe's Hero and Leander mostly by being more ostentatiously hetero

I haven't read either, but I can't see how that can be a criterion for making one poem better than the other.

My point is that it doesn't make Venus and Adonis better, just more popular. The gusto with which Shakespeare evokes female genitalia was extremely popular at the time.
 
Frankly, Venus and Adonis has it over Marlowe's Hero and Leander mostly by being more ostentatiously hetero

I haven't read either, but I can't see how that can be a criterion for making one poem better than the other.

My point is that it doesn't make Venus and Adonis better, just more popular. The gusto with which Shakespeare evokes female genitalia was extremely popular at the time.

Aha. I misunderstood what you meant. (I was also confused because both pairs were heterosexual couples, though Marlowe also wrote Edward II.)
 
When I've tried to, I have had an incredibly difficult time reading his work. I never know what the hell is going on.

That said, I generally enjoy watching the plays being performed.
^This for me as well. I could never get what was going on any time I was reading the plays. Thankfully for me, way back in high school when I had to read them for my English Lit class, after we were done we watched a movie of the play. All were straight performances of the exact lines, except for one - for "Taming of the Shrew", we watched the Moonlighting episode "Atomic Shakespeare"! :lol:
 
Of the plays I've read, about the only one I didn't particularly enjoy was King Lear. I could never muster up any sympathy for Lear - not that you're supposed to, I guess, but I thought he was a complete idiot.

He was insane. I really like that one because it's pretty scary to think of living under a batshit insane king.
 
Perhaps someone can help me with my old BSG Shakespeare spoof.

Act I

I got part way through act three and just lost my drive to finish it, although I did have some ideas for an interesting scene between Six and a human suffering short term memory loss (one of my college roomates suffered it after running into a telephone pole while chasing a frisbee). The human's memory would reset every 30 seconds or so, and to keep him calm Six would have to constantly tell him who he and she were. I thought this would be a fascinating and innovative way to have her explore all her possible futures and fates, because to avoid boring repetition she would make up a new lie each time, yet while he was babbling about something totally insignificant, she would reflect on those false lives together and what they would've been like.
 
Frankly, Venus and Adonis has it over Marlowe's Hero and Leander mostly by being more ostentatiously hetero

I haven't read either, but I can't see how that can be a criterion for making one poem better than the other.

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned A Midsummer Night's Dream. It may not be a heavyweight, but it's a fun play (I played Lysander in a production once, some years ago).

Of the plays I've read, about the only one I didn't particularly enjoy was King Lear. I could never muster up any sympathy for Lear - not that you're supposed to, I guess, but I thought he was a complete idiot.

Try watching Akira Kurosawa's Ran.
 
I do have to admit I'm not a fan of forcing secondary students to read Shakes. [...] I think it does more harm than good forcing HS students to read the plays, since it turns off far more 16 year olds than it engages.
A bad teacher can strip away all that is human from Shakespeare and leave the student with cold dead meaningless words. A good teacher can make the stories transcend the page and soar through a person's imagination.

I've had plenty of bad ones and one good teacher.
Never had a good one.

It was excruciating when we had to read in class. The dreaded monotones. Awful beyond belief. I had no appreciation when at school, and am still leery now.

That said, there are two copies of the complete works on my shelf. When I was living in Far North Queensland (FNQ), there was a touring theatre company that came round with different plays, and one time it was Macbeth, and that was a real eye opener. And despite being called bizarre upthread, I have McKellen's 'Richard III', set in a 1930s fascist England, it's bloody good. Look at the cast - McKellen, Bening, Downey Jr, Maggie Smith, Jim Broadbent, it goers on. Worth tracking down the book for it as well, in which McKellen explains what it took to get the running, and what cuts he made and why - should be a film school text. I regard it as one of the more important books in my library.
 
My introduction to Shakespeare was Julius Caesar, which was pretty intense (though I loved the Wayne and Shuster spoof!)

"One false move, and I'll fill you full of bronze!"

:rommie: "I told him, 'Juli, don't go! It's the Ides of March, Juli!'"

Honestly, this sketch and the Coles notes were my salvation, or I wouldn't have known what was going on.
 
When I've tried to, I have had an incredibly difficult time reading his work. I never know what the hell is going on.

Glad to know I'm not alone. Back in school one of my English teachers attempted to teach us Shakespeare, and it was the first F- I ever got in that subject.

My knowledge on the subject is limited to whenever Star Trek has quoted it.
 
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