What if the Klingons wanted to join the Federation?

[Jayson]

Do you think they would be allowed in or the Klingon culture to build around the idea of war and combat to be adaptable to Federation rules. Would it be wrong to try and make the Klingons adapt to a new philosphy when in theory one should resect all philsophies.

Jason

 

[Finn]

^ Why not? Andorians did it.

 

[Admiral Shran]

If they seriously wanted to join the UFP, they would probably have to tone down some elements of their philosophy (such as conquering and occupying other worlds). But, for the most part, there's nothing wrong with warriors belonging to the Federation. Again, Andorians not only joined it, they helped found it.

And before anyone says that warrior Andorians are an invention of ENT, I'd like to point out that The Animated Series explicitly said they were a warrior race in Yesteryear.

 

[xortex]

Yea, but wasn't that an alternate reality?

 

[C.E. Evans]

I don't think the Federation has an open-door policy where they'll just accept anyone who has starfaring capability. I think all Federation member worlds must meet other criteria for admission, and it probably forbids duels to the death and the occasional assassination of your boss as acceptable forms of promotion in a workplace.

The Klingons might balk at that sort of imposition on their culture and be content to just be allies with the Federation.

 

[Skywalker]

The Klingons would also likely have to agree to free the various subject species they'd conquered as the Empire expanded over the centuries. The Federation would probably then give those species the choice to either join the Federation as well, if they were capable of doing so, or to allow them to go off on their own and do their own thing if they wished.

I do think the Klingons eventually will join the Federation, for what it's worth.

 

[Admiral Shran]

Yea, but wasn't that an alternate reality?

True, but even Spock (who was from the "real" timeline) acknowledged the fact.

 

[Saito S]

If they seriously wanted to join the UFP, they would probably have to tone down some elements of their philosophy (such as conquering and occupying other worlds). But, for the most part, there's nothing wrong with warriors belonging to the Federation. Again, Andorians not only joined it, they helped found it.

And before anyone says that warrior Andorians are an invention of ENT, I'd like to point out that The Animated Series explicitly said they were a warrior race in Yesteryear.

I don't think it's just about "being a warrior race" anyway. It's the entire cultural picture. The Klingons simply seem to be further away from Federation values than the Andorians ever were, in general (granted, that's partly "feel" since we know so much less about Andorian culture than Klingon culture). Further, I don't see Klingon society ever being happy with being part of a larger whole, and having even some laws/policies/etc dictated by the Federation. Even if you go by the post-Nemesis novelverse, which has the Klingons abandoning some of there more primitive, barbaric conqueror ways under Martok; even if the Klingons naturally move somewhat closer to Federation values in some ways, they still wouldn't want to officially become part of it. They are simply too independent, too proud of the distinctiveness of their culture.

I don't think the Federation has an open-door policy where they'll just accept anyone who has starfaring capability. I think all Federation member worlds must meet other criteria for admission, and it probably forbids duels to the death and the occasional assassination of your boss as acceptable forms of promotion in a workplace.

Definitely. Well, technically we can only speculate that the Feds frown on duels and assassination as advancement, but it seems a reasonable assumption.

Speculation is not required, however, when it comes to the first part of your paragraph: the Federation has an evaluation process for petitioning worlds, and they can accept or deny the application based on specific criteria. See: TNG eps "The High Ground" and "Attached", and of course, Bajor, especially "Accession", when Sisko tells what's-his-face, without any ambiguity, that caste-based discrimination = automatic rejection.

I do think the Klingons eventually will join the Federation, for what it's worth.

I don't see it, personally, for the reasons I outlined above.

 

[Skywalker]

I don't think it will be any time soon, at least another century after NEM (but likely longer than that), but I do think it will happen. Kolos (the advocate played by J. G. Hertzler in ENT) said that Klingon society was not always like the one we saw in the 23rd and 24th centuries. I think that as their alliance with the Federation continues, the Klingons will feel less of a need for expansion and conquest, and the dominance of the warrior mindset will diminish.

 

[T'Girl]

and it probably forbids duels to the death

Like they do with the Vulcans?

The Federation and the Empire are about the same size and strength, so why would it be the Empire joining the Federation, as opposed to the Federation joining the Empire?

What would be more realistic would be some form of a merging of the two.

The worlds of the Empire would become part of the mixture of cultures and civilizations that make up the Federation, the Federation would have to expand it's current views of diversity to include everything that the Klingons are. Given the example of Ardana, the powerful family houses of the Klingons would remain intact as governing bodies on Klingon worlds.

The Federation council and Klingon council (see already have the same basic name) would have to find the means to become one. If the current Federation allows member planets to choose their representative in any manner they wish, then the heads of the various Klingon houses would send a representative (or go themselves) to the new council just as they did to the old council.

The new council/governing body could be established on a world more centrally located to the new assemblage of member worlds.

The two fleets would also have to merge, I think this would be less of a problem that it would at first seem.

Conquered people within the Empire might find their Klingon "governors" removed as part of the merge, faced with the alternatives of becoming independent or staying in the new conglomeration as member worlds, their decision may prove to be a difficult one.

The Romulans would absolutely have a cow.

If the two were basically the same size before, the new conglomeration would then have approximately 300 member worlds.

I wonder what it would be called? Perhaps the Conglomeration of Planets?

 

[Nerys Myk]

Wasn't it implied that the Klingons were in the UFP in TNG's first season?

 

[The Wormhole]

Wasn't it implied that the Klingons were in the UFP in TNG's first season?

TNG's early years, very much so. In Heart of Glory, we see the Federadion's logo dsiplayed on the bridge of a Klingon ship, and in Samaritan's Snare Wesley says something like "was this before the Klingons joined the Federation?"

I think by the third season it was made clear the Klingons weren't Federation members, therefore making previous evidence just another continuity oddity.

I think in Enterprise it was established that Klingons are members of the Federation in the 26th century of a possible timeline.

Aside from the Klingon Defense Force being aborbed into Starfleet, I don't see much difference for Klingon society. Their military officers would have to adjust to Starfleet's way of doing things, that might be tricky.

 

[C.E. Evans]

and it probably forbids duels to the death

Like they do with the Vulcans?

If you're referring to the Koon-ut-kal-if-fee, it was an ancient marriage ritual that usually didn't involve a duel to the death. The kal-if-fee was also something not known to many non-Vulcans.

In Heart of Glory, we see the Federadion's logo dsiplayed on the bridge of a Klingon ship, and in Samaritan's Snare Wesley says something like "was this before the Klingons joined the Federation?"

I think by the third season it was made clear the Klingons weren't Federation members, therefore making previous evidence just another continuity oddity.

Or evidence that the Klingons had joined forces with the Federation or had joined the Federation in a treaty/peace agreement.

 

[T'Girl]

If you're referring to the Koon-ut-kal-if-fee, it was an ancient marriage ritual that usually didn't involve a duel to the death. The kal-if-fee was also something not known to many non-Vulcans.

My point is that even after it was known of, the Federation didn't put an end to it, Because the ceromoniy was the Vulcan heart and soul. It was intergral to who the Vulcan are.

The federation adapted to the fact that some of it's members fight death duels over women. "They" didn't throw the Vulcans out.

And the Klingons, with all their bag full of "querky" customs would enjoy the same ackowledgement of their diverse ways.

Look at it this way, if say the Trill (name out of a hat) didn't agree with the concept of arranged marriages, they through the federation couldn't say boo to the Vulcan and Betazed practice. If the Betazeds (who do have arranged marriages) didn't like death duels, would have no say in Vulcans dueling. If still another federation member practiced genetic engineering, Humans with their ban on the practice couldn't make them stop.

Not acceptance, just simply tolerance.

 

[cwl]

the Klingon Empire is just too big to join the Federation. I can't see humans wanting to be a minority in the Federation. The Klingons would have too much influence due to their size.

 

[C.E. Evans]

If you're referring to the Koon-ut-kal-if-fee, it was an ancient marriage ritual that usually didn't involve a duel to the death. The kal-if-fee was also something not known to many non-Vulcans.

My point is that even after it was known of, the Federation didn't put an end to it,

Would they even have to? See below.

Because the ceromoniy was the Vulcan heart and soul. It was intergral to who the Vulcan are.

Only in the sense that it shows the Vulcans at their most savage and emotionally vulnerable, but otherwise it's in contradiction to the Ways of Surak and the path their society has taken since the Time of Awakening.

As far as the ceremony, though, that's kah-if-farr--the actual wedding. Kal-if-fee--the wedding challenge--was something T'Pring invoked from ancient times and would seem to be in direct conflict with both Federation and post-Surak Vulcan society. T'Pau allowed it, but another Vulcan officiating the wedding may not have.

And for all we know, that was the first kal-if-fee since the Federation was formed--and nobody actually died. The next kal-if-fee we saw was more than a century later aboard the Voyager--and nobody died there either. As T'Pau has been proven wrong at least twice, I would argue that kal-if-fee doesn't always mean somebody dies.

The federation adapted to the fact that some of it's members fight death duels over women. "They" didn't throw the Vulcans out.

And they may not ever need to if nobody actually dies during those death duels anymore or do so very rarely. More people may die from rock climbing on numereous Federation worlds.

And the Klingons, with all their bag full of "querky" customs would enjoy the same ackowledgement of their diverse ways.

Only to a point, IMO. As I said in an earlier post, I don't think Federation society is an "anything goes" society. While I do think each individual member world maintains its own local laws and traditions, I think each member world has to have more things in common than different with the Federation to become a member. I think the only way the Klingons could become full-fledged members of the Federation is if the Klingon Empire as we know it ceases to exist--either figuratively or literally.

Look at it this way, if say the Trill (name out of a hat) didn't agree with the concept of arranged marriages, they through the federation couldn't say boo to the Vulcan and Betazed practice. If the Betazeds (who do have arranged marriages) didn't like death duels, would have no say in Vulcans dueling. If still another federation member practiced genetic engineering, Humans with their ban on the practice couldn't make them stop.

Not acceptance, just simply tolerance.

I think there are some things the Federation won't tolerate among its members. I also think that those worlds that may find Federation laws too restricting are free to say "I like you, I'll work with you, but I don't want to be you." That's tolerance of another kind.

 

[T'Girl]

^ But given the Klingon's contensious ways, there no saying if they would side with each other in somekind of "voting block" in the council. Individual houses might go their own ways.

 

[Matt4511]

^ But given the Klingon's contensious ways, there no saying if they would side with each other in somekind of "voting block" in the council. Individual houses might go their own ways.

Individual houses may elect to break their ties with the empire and join the Federation. This could be a way around some post-VOY era notes (from that Daniels guy from Enterprise, I think) suggesting that the Klingons have joined the Federation. They may have. And yet a separate Klingon Empire could still exist.

 

[Admiral Shran]

the Klingon Empire is just too big to join the Federation. I can't see humans wanting to be a minority in the Federation. The Klingons would have too much influence due to their size.

Humans already are a minority in the Federation - we just happen to see them more often because of real-life budgetary constricts. Humans are only one species among the 150 member species of the Federation.

As early as TOS: The Apple, Spock explicitly says that Humans are a very tiny minority.

 

[Saito S]

^ But given the Klingon's contensious ways, there no saying if they would side with each other in somekind of "voting block" in the council. Individual houses might go their own ways.

Hmm...

I don't remember if there is any canon mention of this or not, but Decipher's RPG has a chapter about the Federation, what life is like in it, how things work, etc. Now, obviously an RPG book isn't canon, and I don't remember if this ever WAS mentioned in canon; it may not have been. It alluded to one of the requirements being that a petitioning world have a single, world government, in some form. The planet had to speak in "one voice". Again, this may not be canon, but if it were, the Klingons wouldn't be able to let individual houses decide anything for any large chunk of Klingon society (and they certainly wouldn't be able to have a set up like the one shown in "Redemption", where individual houses all controlled pieces of the military).

Speaking of things that may not be canon: I also recall a lot of emphasis being placed on the importance of self-determination and individual rights, including the "right" to live one's life as one sees fit, as long as you are not breaking any laws. To that end, I could see an argument that arranged marriages would be seen as unacceptable, since it essentially determines a rather important part of someone's future for them. Of course, whether such emphasis on individualism is canon or not, it's contradicted by the existence of arranged marriage as seen in both Vulcan and Betazoid society...

the Klingon Empire is just too big to join the Federation. I can't see humans wanting to be a minority in the Federation. The Klingons would have too much influence due to their size.

Humans already are a minority in the Federation - we just happen to see them more often because of real-life budgetary constricts. Humans are only one species among the 150 member species of the Federation.

As early as TOS: The Apple, Spock explicitly says that Humans are a very tiny minority.

Yeah, and really, every individual Federation race is a "tiny minority", since there are so many.