^Well, I'd say second-most important, since, again, Nero and his crew actually came from the Prime universe in 2387.
What if Saavik was Half-Human, Instead of Half-Romulan?
- Thread starter Kamdan
- Start date
Riiiight..... perhaps I should have said "abrams-verse"... I'd like to think you understood what I meant, though.
You do make a fair point though, since that would still be considered canon to the prime universe (even though it's clearly all from the abrams camp.)
I wish they just did a straight up reboot. Connecting it to the prime universe was just unnecessary and caused complications(albiet minor ones).. They were just trying to keep everyone happy, I guess. But I'd rather look at that whole movie as completely different universe. Unfortunately for me, I cannot, as you have pointed out. (Of course, I can in my own head, and I will, but I obviously can't expect others to conform to the same thought process in a discussion.)
Edit-
Although.........
On another look it appears that the Romulans in Abrams Trek aren't *really* smooth headed.
They did use prosthetic/makeup on Nero's forehead and nose. It might not be clearly defined ridges, but it's not like the Vulcanny smooth headed ones either. It seems to widen the nose and make the forehead protrude more, giving a more "neanderthal" look. I think it looks more TNG style than it does TOS style, if I had to choose. It's definitely somewhere in the middle, though. Kind of a merging of styles.
Same with his henchman
These points were made on www.ex-astris-scientia.org/
Edit-
Another higher quality image. I can see something quite ridge-like going on here:
Last edited:
^Well, if they had done a "straight-up reboot," then they wouldn't have felt the need to include an iconic cast member of the original to provide a bridge between universes, and so they wouldn't have coaxed Leonard Nimoy out of retirement, and his recent career renaissance wouldn't have happened. So I'm not complaining.
Star Trek has always been a loose hodgepodge of pieces that didn't quite fit together right. Just a few years ago, there were fans insisting Enterprise was a separate universe, and a couple of decades earlier there were TOS fans who refused to count TNG as "real" Star Trek, and before (and after) that there were debates about whether the animated series should count. There are one or two posters on this BBS who still don't count anything after ST:TMP as "real." But such long-term holdouts are rare. Most people just need time to get used to the new stuff -- or they accept it right off the bat. After all, Star Trek is supposed to be about embracing the new and different, not rejecting or avoiding it.
Star Trek has always been a loose hodgepodge of pieces that didn't quite fit together right. Just a few years ago, there were fans insisting Enterprise was a separate universe, and a couple of decades earlier there were TOS fans who refused to count TNG as "real" Star Trek, and before (and after) that there were debates about whether the animated series should count. There are one or two posters on this BBS who still don't count anything after ST:TMP as "real." But such long-term holdouts are rare. Most people just need time to get used to the new stuff -- or they accept it right off the bat. After all, Star Trek is supposed to be about embracing the new and different, not rejecting or avoiding it.
Ridges are from Genus Vulco Romulus while smooth heads are the Romulans who underwent genetic engineering to be able to mate with Vulcans (or more closely match Genus Vulco Surakus).
^But we know that Romulans came from Vulcan in the first place. They emigrated away in the time of Surak. Even if there were two different subspecies of Vulcan, why would the migration have happened along strictly racial lines? It's generally accepted that it was more a matter of philosophical difference -- those who departed were those who rejected Surak's teachings. There's no reason that wouldn't have included Vulcans of both hypothetical subspecies. So there's no need to resort to the "genetic engineering" explanation, which is overused in fan theories.
Besides, the phenotypic difference between Vulcans and Romulans -- the heavier forehead and brow ridges -- isn't really that great. It's not that much more substantial than the differences among human racial groups. Imagine what it must've been like for, say, the Chinese when traders from the Roman Empire first appeared. People whose noses were massive protruding beaks, whose eyes had no epicanthic folds, whose facial bone structure was oddly angular, whose hair was sometimes curly and light in color. They must have looked quite alien. The difference between "Vulcan" and "Romulan" foreheads isn't much more pronounced than those differences, so they can easily enough be explained away as a difference in ethnic/racial groups, not whole species or subspecies.
Besides, the phenotypic difference between Vulcans and Romulans -- the heavier forehead and brow ridges -- isn't really that great. It's not that much more substantial than the differences among human racial groups. Imagine what it must've been like for, say, the Chinese when traders from the Roman Empire first appeared. People whose noses were massive protruding beaks, whose eyes had no epicanthic folds, whose facial bone structure was oddly angular, whose hair was sometimes curly and light in color. They must have looked quite alien. The difference between "Vulcan" and "Romulan" foreheads isn't much more pronounced than those differences, so they can easily enough be explained away as a difference in ethnic/racial groups, not whole species or subspecies.
Yeah good point.
The more I think about it the more I dig the idea of the TOS helmet romulans having ridges under their helmet. The lower "warrior class" so to speak. Then during the long absence they took over in some sort of civil war/political coup. I'm gonna stick with that.
all we mostly see are the physical differences. there could be some nontrivial genetic differences based on the small group of Vulcans who made it to Romulus, accumulated genetic chnages due to the long trip and/or any genetic engineering done.
I absolutely disagree with this. Romulans really aren't Vulcan on a biological level anymore, and 2000 years is certainly enough time to make distinct differences on a genetic level. We need look no further than the various canines species, specifically the differences between dogs and wolves. They are no longer in the same family (wolf = canis lupus, and dogs = canis familiaris) even though they are both related with regards to one group "descending" from the other. They can cross breed, but how does the size and body structure of a Shih-tzu compare to a timberwolf, or the skull of a Bulldog's contrast to that of an Arctic wolf's? Today's Shih-tzu appears quite distinct from its ancestors, and the Bulldog breed as we know it isn't even 1000 years old. In addition, environment and association (with humans) has altered not only their appearance, but their sexual and social behavior as well, the biggest example being that wolves don't trust humans, where as (most) domesticated dogs are drawn to people. That's on an instinctual level due to environment and association.
All of this just on Earth. Imagine what would happen if a group of dogs got put into space for 2000 years.
But that's just it, and exactly why it's not "stupid" at all. Environment can and DOES have an effect on certain species on a psychological level, as demonstrated with the example of canines.
With regards to Star Trek, Vulcans as a whole remained relatively stable in their environment, and centuries of trying to "evolve" their minds beyond their antagonistic ways could potentially awaken aspects of their brains which, under ordinary circumstances, would have remained innate. A brain becoming more orderly, organized, focused, etc, is how we got to typing on this message board, as opposed to just painting on walls.
Romulans, in contrast, had a life that was full of instability via rads in space splicing up their DNA, possible interbreeding within their own groups as well as with other alien species, exposure to alien environments via food, pollen in the air, microbes in water, exposure to alien viruses as well as bacteria and diseases, possible extreme heat or cold, potential sanitary problems for unknown lengths of time in cramped quarters, etc., etc.
That's a bad example, though. First off, your taxonomy is inaccurate; the domestic dog is actually Canis lupus familiaris, a subspecies of the gray wolf C. lupus rather than a separate species. Also, its domestication and divergence from wolves dates back 15,000 years. A breed like a bulldog is simply a new variation of the dog species created by selective breeding. All dog breeds are C. lupus familiaris, all the same species and subspecies, just different "races." There isn't even any formal scientific distinction drawn between breeds of dog; they're informal categories defined by breed clubs.
There's also the fact that the rate at which a species evolves is a factor of how quickly it can reach sexual maturity and spawn a new generation. Dogs take less than a year to reach sexual maturity, while Vulcanoids seem to take over 35 years (assuming the timing of Spock's first pon farr was typical). So in 2000 years, dogs could go through over 2000 generations while Vulcanoids would go through fewer than 60 generations. So the amount of genetic drift Romulans would've undergone since the Sundering is analogous to the amount of drift between two dog breeds that have been separate for only 50-60 years, not 1000 years or more.
You're confusing two different types of environmental influence. The difference between wolf and dog behavior has been bred into them over thousands of years, thousands of generations, so it's become part of their genetics. That's different from a case where two genetically identical cultures have different learned behavior due to their upbringing.
Fifty or sixty generations is simply not enough time for that. And you seem to have an oddly Lamarckian set of assumptions about how evolution works. Even if one generation of Vulcans learned to awaken new mental potentials, that would not become a change encoded in their genes. It could only be passed on to the next generation by teaching them. Maybe over hundreds or thousands of generations, if the cultural conditions remained in place so that more logical and disciplined Vulcans were more successful at attracting mates and reproducing than more aggressive and irrational ones, then the kind of evolutionary process you're thinking of could occur. (Which is probably why Vulcans arrange marriages well before the frenzy of pon farr overtakes them -- so that couples can be matched based on their desirable traits rather than coming together in the heat of passion.) But it's not going to happen in just a few dozen generations.
Same problem. Given the rate of humanoid reproduction, particularly given how slow Vulcanoid maturation appears to be, 2000 years simply doesn't add up to enough generations to result in new speciation, not unless there's deliberate, advanced genetic engineering employed.
First of all, I need to clarify something I stated incorrectly: My point was off by saying "they are no longer in the same family." They are, as both dogs and wolves are of the canine family. What I meant was they are not classified the same due to the changes, i.e. dogs aren't classified as wolves or vice versa, and I didn't communicate that well.
In either case, what you wrote in response was exactly my point - there are enough biological differences that one cannot claim a wolf is a dog, or the reverse. Same with Vulcans and Romulans. Your statement "biologically, Romulans are Vulcan" is what I am contesting. They're not. Biologically similar, yes. A subspecies, yes, but they are no longer Vulcans.
The time interval between the evolution wolves to dogs was not part of my contention, it was the extreme changes which have taken place with dog breeds in a short amount of time due to elements and forces apart from "standard" evolution. Circumstance (in this case via human intervention) has made the changes faster and more distinct, and when comparing certain dog breeds to their relative, the wolf, the distinction is obvious.
Personally I don't think young Spock in STIII looked older than 18 when he was experiencing his first (un)happy time, but I could be wrong. In either case, circumstance and environmental conditions for Romulans kind of blow all that out the airlock. The situation is different for them for an extended period, and biologically and psychologically, they would change and adapt to that. Evolution does not have one fixed rate, but IMO, 2000 years is plenty of time for a secluded group in space which is consistently exposed to all sorts of radiation + alien everything to have distinctions which differentiate them from their origin group. Circumstance and environment will dictate this, especially with regards to exposure to and from different alien biospheres.
I'm not "confusing" anything. Certain behaviors are learned, while others are innate. Not all dogs are friendly, while others are too friendly. Some are trained to attack, and some run obstacle courses. Some like food for treats, while others prefer toys. Sometimes the type of breed will dictate which of these behaviors is more prevalent, and sometimes they won't. It's a combination of both learned and innate behavior, and we (humans) are part of that environmental influence.
I really don't see how proto-Romulans are going to be exactly like Vulcans even after 1000 years in space unless the conditions are exactly the same as on Vulcan, 24/7. Conditions and environment will alter perception and behavior on so many levels, and that's where it starts. The mind asks "how do I survive," and then the changes begin. Add space rads + alien food, water, air, possible genetics, etc. into the mix and there's just no way a Proto-Romulan is going to be exactly like a Vulcan.
You're assuming they're going to be behaving like Vulcans, when the whole reason they wanted to leave was to not be told how to act certain ways.
Evolution is happening all the time, even while we type and read...on Earth. But we're also talking about aliens who are governed by some different sets of rules in a different environment with a different biology, and for all we know, that aspect of evolution is part of the Vulcanoid species method of long-term survival. It would make sense, considering they can read each others thoughts with a "simple" placement of fingers on a face. Apparently, not only the strong, but the smartest find ways to stay ahead of the game on the evolutionary ladder on Vulcan.
I imagine even a fraction of that aspect would carry over into any group who decided to leave, as well...
-rads in space splicing up their DNA
-possible interbreeding within their own groups
-possible interbreeding with other alien species
-exposure to alien environments via food, pollen in the air, microbes in water
-exposure to alien viruses as well as bacteria and diseases
-possible extreme heat or cold
-potential sanitary problems for unknown lengths of time in cramped quarters
All the above on a consistent basis for generations. How are those the same conditions a Vulcan on it's homeworld would experience?
No, it's not the same, because the time intervals simply do not compare. Dogs diverged from wolves roughly 15,000 generations ago, plenty of time for species differentiation. Romulans diverged from Vulcans on the order of 100 generations ago or less, which is not enough time for speciation.
Contradictory. If they're a subspecies, then by definition they're still the same species. They're more like different breeds of dog than like dogs vs. wolves.
I know, and that's why I pointed it out. Failing to take something that critical into account is why your contention is fundamentally flawed.
But again, your basic mistake is treating the difference between two breeds of dog as if it were interchangeable with the difference between dogs and wolves, which it is not.
A difference of a factor of two at most. Whether it's 60 generations or 120, it's still too few for speciation.
Yes, but the rate at which they reproduce is a fundamental limiter on the rate at which that change occurs. You're just not considering that. The slower a species reproduces, the slower it evolves. Bacteria and viruses can reproduce in a matter of hours, so they're able to evolve in a matter of months or years, like strep developing resistance to antibiotics or HIV mutating into more forms than the immune system can cope with. But large animals like hominids reproduce far more slowly, so they simply can't evolve as fast.
What you have to understand about evolution is that it's not a conscious decision to adapt. It's a much more stochastic process: random new traits arise during reproduction, and the conditions of the environment select some of those traits to be more reproductively successful than others. New mutations that are useful for a new environment won't magically appear as soon as you move there; you have to wait for them to crop up by chance first. And the more slowly a species reproduces, the fewer opportunities there are for new traits to arise. You have a better chance of dealing a straight flush if you deal 15,000 hands than you do if you only deal 100 hands.
So yes, moving to a new environment can speed up the rate of evolution, but it's still constrained by the rate of reproduction, the time that must elapse between generations. So there are limits on how much it speeds up. The bacteria and insects and small animals the Sundered took with them to Romulus would've had time to evolve into new species by now through the mechanisms you're describing, but macrofauna like the Romulans themselves, not so much, because their rate of reproduction is a limiter.
Not among hominins. There are plenty of human populations that have been isolated from one another for much longer than that -- for instance, most Native Americans were completely isolated from the rest of humanity for 12-14,000 years, while Aboriginal Australians were isolated for nearly 50,000 years. And yet all humans are still the same single species, even after all that time developing in isolation and in different environments. So there's no way it could happen in a paltry 2000 years, not without sophisticated genetic engineering. The last known time that a new species of genus Homo came into being was more like 200,000 years ago.
Again, your notions of evolution are bizarrely Lamarckian. Evolutionary change does not result from what the mind thinks. It results from alterations in the genome. If random mutations or new genetic combinations arise that happen to result in a way of thinking that's better suited to the environment and increases reproductive success, then that would eventually lead to that way of thinking becoming more common in the population. But what you learn during your life, how you perceive things and behave based on your experience, does not get encoded into your genes and passed on to your offspring. That's a notion that was discredited a century ago.
No, I'm saying that they wouldn't be a different species from Vulcans, which is a completely unrelated topic. Of course Romulans are culturally and behaviorally different from Vulcans, which is the whole reason they left in the first place. But that wouldn't rewrite their genes, except insofar as their cultural choices would affect which individuals were seen as more desirable mates. And as the human example shows, that would take maybe a hundred times longer than they've had.
Just to make sure you're not losing track, my point is that Saavik being half-Romulan wouldn't cause her to be more emotionally erratic than a full Vulcan, because Vulcans' logical behavior is a culturally learned trait rather than something written into their genes.
What you're proposing here is an ad hoc assumption and we have no evidence to support its existence. If we actually knew that Romulans were a separate species from Vulcans, we might need to postulate such an explanation. But we don't know that. There's no conclusive evidence for it. It's simply your belief, and making up random justifications without evidence doesn't prove anything.
Still wouldn't change the fact that they only have a limited number of opportunities to procreate in the span of time available.
Don't see how that would make a difference. Isolated populations of humans have always engaged in inbreeding (which I think is what you must have meant), yet we're all still human after as much as 50,000 years' separation.
Without evidence, it's ad hoc.
No worse than the conditions humans evolved in throughout prehistory, but it didn't make us speciate in a paltry couple of millennia.
Last edited:
There's more to dog evolution than either of us are writing about:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/01/5/l_015_02.html
Note: Canis Familiaris (while being slightly lazy by omitting "lupus") is still an acceptable term for the taxonomy of dogs.
Again, my point was all about the variation of dogs in contrast to wolves, not the length of time they evolved from them. I was pointing out how quickly certain aspects of canine genes can be manipulated and changed in a relatively short amount of time - genes that come from a living relative. We know dogs tend to look different than wolves, whether it's height, fur, skeletal structure, etc., yet a dog and a wolf can breed and produce offspring despite these (sometimes drastic) changes. Some of them carry over. Others don't. It really depends on the amount of "wolf" which is in a hybrid, both of which I have experience working with.
There's nothing contradictory. I said they are no longer Vulcans. That's a true statement on every level. They've experienced far too many changes in the time it took leave Vulcan and arrive at Romulus. Here are some of those changes which the show itself has noted:
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Romulan
Biologically, Romulans are not Vulcans anymore.
Re: the evolution of wolves to dogs
Again, my point was all about the variation of dogs in contrast to wolves, not the length of time they evolved from them. What you call a flaw was a demonstration of how quickly certain aspects of canine genes can be manipulated and changed in a relatively short amount of time - genes that come from a relative which is still compatible with regards to breeding.
The canine gene get's changed up every time there's an unpredictable circumstance. I have a puppy that's 1/4 husky and 3/4 Corgi. She acts like a husky who wants to herd children and small dogs.
Something changed and is having to adapt, and in a few more generations, it might - that's the sort of thing I'm talking about: A change which is distinct and immediate, and differentiates one group from the rest.
The puppy is still a dog, still related to wolves, but there is a new breed which has branched off with it's own specializations.
Vulcans and Romulans are no longer the same. There's no way around that. When it happened can be up for debate, but it was at least by the time TOS took place.
Evolution vs genetic changes due to circumstance and exposure to various alien everything.
They weren't in space getting genes spliced by space rads or being exposed to alien life on a consistent basis either.
We're talking about a species of aliens who can read thoughts by touch, sense thoughts across space and dump their consciousness into jars after they die. Their minds obviously have an aspect which is different than ours.
I already listed how much their physiology would be changed due to circumstance and exposure in space, and to alien biospheres. Vulcans and Romulans are not the same on a biological level, and the differences are noted in the show. By your own explanation of how evolution works on earth, it's impossible for those changes to occur in such a small amount of time.
Thanks, I'm keeping track just fine. I don't agree with that assertion, hence my reiteration of how different Romulans and Vulcans are.
Well, unless you were on their ships for 2000 years, you don't know for certain either. The information from the shows which is in the Memory Alpha link implies there are some significant differences between Vulcan and Romulan physiology, which leans more in favor of the possibility. Even without it, how exactly does evolution account for them unless there were the circumstances and exposures I have listed?
In as much as claiming they don't count for anything? Wow...
Then the population of the Romulan Empire must be pretty damn small....right?
Yes, actually that was another aspect. The thing is, we're not exposed to space rads slicing our DNA on a consistent basis without some sort of "natural" protection, nor are we exposed to different alien biospheres generation after generation.
