UT and Alien languages

[apollo1984]

I have always wondered about how the universal translator works as in many star trek episodes even new languages get translated immediatly such as voyager who would be meeting new species each week without even an adjustment period.

Also even in languages they do know like Klingon there are some words that do have a meaning like QAPLA (meaning success) should be automatically translated so why can you still hear them in it's own dialect.

Also how come star fleet can read any language with out previously knowing it, unless there is some implant that is never mentioned which does that.

 

[CorporalClegg]

Umm. Dramatic effect? You know, cuz it's a TV show?

 

[T'Girl]

Qalpa might be like Gesundheit, the UT know it isn't suppose to translate it, just leaves it in the original.

 

[Timo]

About 99% of the incidents where our heroes run into a new language happen like this: their starship encounters a starship from another species, and both sides want to talk (even if only to threaten the other side with immediate destruction).

It sounds rather natural, then, that both sides would understand each other immediately. After all, it's not the two captains speaking - it's the two starship computers first establishing contact and running their hyperadvanced "let's be friends and learn each other's language" programs, then allowing the captains to have a word. Essentially, at first contact with an alien species, our heroes hand over a whole library of dictionaries, grammar guides and whatnot, and receive the same in return. The computers may take an eternity to initially sort out how to transfer the data, but that eternity is only nanoseconds long.

It's extremely seldom that our heroes encounter an all-new species when deprived of their starship. And if such an encounter starts out with the two sides speaking the same language (say, our DS9 heroes and the Vorta/Jem'Hadar in "Jem'Hadar"), we can usually assume that the opponent has gone to the trouble of learning English before initiating this contact.

Handheld devices or chest communicators can probably do some translating, but they might be limited to processing already known languages. That is, unless they are in contact with more powerful computers such as nearby starships. And when even the commbadges are taken away from our heroes (as in "Basics"), their implanted UTs probably take over, so that they can continue conversing in known languages (such as Kazon and Talaxian) but will be unable to decipher new languages (such as that of the locals on the planet where the Kazon stranded our heroes).

That pretty much covers all the bases already. Save, perhaps, for those cases where translations are incomplete. But those could be one of two things:

a) The word left untranslated is an insult, and the UT is a family-rated device - so Picard can say "merde" and a Romulan can say "veruul" and only a fellow French speaker or Romulan expert can understand the word (or perhaps their UTs in turn go to the trouble of translating those words to a language they are unable to understand?).

b) The word in the middle of an alienese phrase is actually (and quite surprisingly) spoken in English, which the UT indicates by mirroring, by translating the rest of the phrase but not the word. This would loop back to a) because an alien wanting to insult an English speaker might want to use an insult the opponent is sure to understand.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[RyuRoots]

The UT works by magic. Wonderous magic that can even tell when you do or don't want certain words translated (like Romulan swearing and Klingon opera lyrics)

 

[C.E. Evans]

If the Federation has a linguistic database that contains thousands of different languages, the Universal Translator can probably make high-speed comparisons and decipher a new alien language within seconds. If the language has no comparisons with anything that came before, it could take substantially longer. Certain words may not be translated either because they're proper nouns, genuinely lack an English equivalent, or would have an entirely different context in English, IMO. By the 24th-Century, it's possible that quite a few alien words are even now part of the English Dictionary.

I thought it was great in the TNG episode "Darmok" that the UT was able to decipher the Tamarian language, but because it was one based in local metaphors, it still sounded like gibberish unless one knew the metaphors.

 

[maneth]

Darmok was completely illogical, because how do children learn their own language? If they don't know the metaphors, they don't know the language, and vice versa. Even in languages on Earth there are plenty of concepts that can't be directly translated from one language to another, never mind with any aliens we might possibly meet. Maybe it's just as well the laws of physics make such meetings extremely unlikely.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Darmok was completely illogical, because how do children learn their own language?

Likely the same way Earth children do. They're taught.

 

[maneth]

Yes, but when they have no understanding of the concepts behind the metaphor, and can't be shown them in a concrete manner ('this is a fork'), it remains illogical. I'm no Hoshi, but I earn my living by translating, so I do know something about how human languages work.

 

[Orcus]

If the Federation has a linguistic database that contains thousands of different languages, the Universal Translator can probably make high-speed comparisons and decipher a new alien language within seconds. If the language has no comparisons with anything that came before, it could take substantially longer. Certain words may not be translated either because they're proper nouns, genuinely lack an English equivalent, or would have an entirely different context in English, IMO. By the 24th-Century, it's possible that quite a few alien words are even now part of the English Dictionary.

I thought it was great in the TNG episode "Darmok" that the UT was able to decipher the Tamarian language, but because it was one based in local metaphors, it still sounded like gibberish unless one knew the metaphors.

Cheers. This sounds like the best answer. I like the idea of the UT vs. the Tamarian metaphors too...

 

[C.E. Evans]

Yes, but when they have no understanding of the concepts behind the metaphor...

Then they are taught the metaphor. It's not that hard of a concept. They are taught simple stuff at first and then more advanced stuff later.

...and can't be shown them in a concrete manner ('this is a fork'), it remains illogical.

Who says it can't be shown in a concete manner? The Tamarian language seems to be based on stories. You're suggesting that children can't be taught stories or even be shown pictures of things within those stories.

I'm no Hoshi, but I earn my living by translating, so I do know something about how human languages work.

Then it puzzles me why you consider a language based on local stories and folklore unworkable. For all intents and purposes, the Tamarian alphabet is based on symbols and characters that are very easy for them to understand, but arguably not so much for a non-Tamarian unless they are taught what they mean.

 

[DevilEyes]

Counselor Deanna Troi: We are stranded on a planet. We have no language in common, but I want to teach you mine.
[she holds up her tea glass]
Counselor Deanna Troi: S'smarith. What did I just say?
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: Cup... Glass.
Counselor Deanna Troi: Are you sure? I may have meant liquid. Clear. Brown. Hot. We conceptualize the universe in relatively the same way.
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: Point taken.

TNG, "The Ensigns of Command"

 

[StarryEyed]

Language is needed to tech metaphors.

Metaphors are the language.

Get it?

 

[Timo]

Tamarian children could well be taught to speak by using baby talk. Yet adults would never converse in baby talk, unless they wanted their noses pugilistically reshaped. Certainly they wouldn't volunteer any baby talk when dealing with important issues of interstellar diplomacy!

Also, people do learn to speak Cockney or Jive, which are basically second-order languages: you need to learn one language first, and then lots and lots of cultural stuff, to get a grasp of either of these.

All in all, the Tamarians were an interesting concept as such, and probably more consistent with previous and subsequent portrayals of the UT than, say, the way the Skreean language was learned in DS9 "Sanctuary".

Timo Saloniemi

 

[StarryEyed]

If Tamarians are capable of "baby talk", then they should be able to understand the non-metaphor languages of other races.

 

[Timo]

...And it doesn't seem as if they had much problem with understanding what Picard said.

Since Picard was on the linguistic level of a baby, though, there was a definite if one-sided problem in communications.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[maneth]

Timo, that's the best explanation of how the metaphor language could possibly work that I've ever heard anywhere. You just upped my appreciation of "Darmok" by about 200 percent. It's a shame they didn't use that explanation in the episode!

 

[tau136]

We saw how the UT worked in Hoshi Enterprise. She was personally doing translations and feeding results into the linguistic database. She'd often say something along lines The UT doesn't have enough data to make a translation . So it works by having a vast comparative database that it sifts any newly encountered language through. Even for RL humans, the more languages you know the easier it is to grasp a freshly met one.

 

[Mr. Scott]

But, does every species have a UT in their head? Because when any character of any of the series goes to another planet, the aliens understand and can speak English too.

It's one of those, "oh, fk it, it's Star Trek." type of deals.

 

[neozeks]

But, does every species have a UT in their head? Because when any character of any of the series goes to another planet, the aliens understand and can speak English too.

Well, it stands to reason that every warp capable does have the UT, it's sort of a prerequisite for being a part of the interstellar community. As for prewarp societies I'd say it's not the aliens who can speak and understand English, it's our heroes that can speak and understand the aliens' language (like I said in another thread, I think the UT is two-way, it allows you both to understand and speak alien languages).