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T'pol's uniform/first vulcan in Star Fleet

Did the the show say that Seska was former Starfleet? If so, that may work if the Cardassians wanted to know more about how SF was really supplying the Maquis(cuz we know they were.) And if they really weren't. The Cardassians would take it as a given, that they were

Seska's cover identity was that of a Maquis who had never served in Starfleet.

As for her true Cardassian character, I don't think Seska ever served in the Cardassian military. She was an Obsidian Order agent, and the two groups don't exactly get along...

Does anyone think the Romulan officer who was briefly assigned to the Defiant to monitor the cloaking device should have been require to wear a Starfleet uniform?

No. T'Rul was a Romulan patriot, and her only loyalty was to her own people. She wasn't there to serve on the Defiant as such - she didn't take part in normal ship operations.

@psCargile: As has been pointed out many times, the problem with T'Pol's uniform is NOT how her crewmates treat her. IIRC, there wasn't a single scene where T'Pol was ogled or objectified because of her normal uniform (although the gratuitous use of the decon chamber was another matter). This is not an in-universe problem, as such. It speaks to the treatment of women in general - how they're often used as objects on shows, to pander to the bloody 18-34 group. Even if there is an in-universe explanation for the uniforms worn by T'Pol and Seven, the problem is how it's handled OUT of universe.
 
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Seska's cover identity was that of a Maquis who had never served in Starfleet.

As for her true Cardassian character, I don't think Seska ever served in the Cardassian military. She was an Obsidian Order agent, and the two groups don't exactly get along...



No. T'Rul was a Romulan patriot, and her only loyalty was to the Romulan space service. She wasn't there to serve on the Defiant as such - she didn't take part in normal ship operations.

@psCargile: As has been pointed out many times, the problem with T'Pol's uniform is NOT how her crewmates treat her. IIRC, there wasn't a single scene where T'Pol was ogled or objectified because of her normal uniform (although the gratuitous use of the decon chamber was another matter). This is not an in-universe problem, as such. It speaks to the treatment of women in general - how they're often used as objects on shows, to pander to the bloody 18-34 group. Even if there is an in-universe explanation for the uniforms worn by T'Pol and Seven, the problem is how it's handled OUT of universe.
Are we back to singling out T'Pol and Seven again?

Is something going to happen to me when I turn 34? That statement left me unsettled...
 
Mr Laser Beam. I know that. Been around a while. I first gazed upon Jolene Blalock in the pages of Maxim before she was cast. Not like she didn't know what she was getting into. Compare that to Lena Durham in Girls. Seems like when chubby girls get naked, it's heralded as empowerment again the patriarchy. Athletic woman in tight garments, sexism.

Sexxx $ales in both cases, we are just choosing which to be more indignant.
 
Here's a bit of insight:

Marina
"There are certain rules in Hollywood. One of the rules is not written anywhere, but you just know: if you’re doing an action-adventure show, you gotta have chicks on the show for the boys to look at when they’re not blowing up other spaceships. Second rule: if the chick has a cleavage, she cannot have a brain.

So, [after wearing a uniform in the first episode] I got a cleavage, and all my gray matter departed. Which was sad, because originally (I know this is gonna shock you), Troi was supposed to be the brains of the Enterprise. So when the cleavage came, all that left, and I became decorative, like a potted palm on the bridge."

(After season 6)
"So I started to wear my spacesuit. I was thrilled to finally be in a spacesuit. First of all, my pips - cause I had rank you know. And then, it was very flattering actually, it looked really good. suddenly, I had brains again. My cleavage had gone. My gray matter came flooding back. I was on away teams! I was the leader of one away team! I had a medical tricorder! And unlike Beverly, I seemed to know what was wrong with people."
 
If you remember the Enterprise-D's computer tells us that "there have been five Federation ships with that name". So clearly the Enterprise-NX isn't considered a ship of the United Federation of Planets' Starfleet.
Scotty: "The android at the bar said you could show me my old ship."

Scotty: "The Enterprise. Show me the bridge of the Enterprise, you chattering piece of ..."

Computer Voice: "There have been five Federation ships with that name. Please specify by registry number.


Scotty didn't initially specific a Starfleet vessel, or what time period beyond "my old ship." I believe the computer was offering a suggestion, and the it asked for clarification.

Starfleet pre-dates the Federation, it pre-dates United Earth too, possibly it pre-dates the "New United Nations" as well. And if there is ever something different years in the future, Starfleet might be associated with that

Was it that there were five Starfleet vessels name Enterprise during the Federation era?

It's even possible that the computer wasn't even referring to Starfleet vessels when it said "There have been five Federation ships with that name." The computer could gave been referring to non-Starfleet ships directly attached to the Federation governing body

The computer never mentioned anything about a Starfleet ship.
 
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Nor does it mention the aircraft carriers, nor space shuttle, nor any the a large number of sailing vessels, though some of those sailing ships might not have what one might consider a bridge.
 
Scotty: "The android at the bar said you could show me my old ship."

Scotty: "The Enterprise. Show me the bridge of the Enterprise, you chattering piece of ..."

Computer Voice: "There have been five Federation ships with that name. Please specify by registry number.


Scotty didn't initially specific a Starfleet vessel, or what time period beyond "my old ship." I believe the computer was offering a suggestion, and the it asked for clarification.

Starfleet pre-dates the Federation, it pre-dates United Earth too, possibly it pre-dates the "New United Nations" as well. And if there is ever something different years in the future, Starfleet might be associated with that

Was it that there were five Starfleet vessels name Enterprise during the Federation era?

It's even possible that the computer wasn't even referring to Starfleet vessels when it said "There have been five Federation ships with that name." The computer could gave been referring to non-Starfleet ships directly attached to the Federation governing body

The computer never mentioned anything about a Starfleet ship.

SCOTTY: The Enterprise. Show me the Bridge of the Enterprise, you chattering piece of…
COMPUTER: There have been five Federation ships with that name. Please specify by registry number.
SCOTT: NCC One Seven Oh One. No bloody A, B, C, or D.

It's pretty clear that up to that point there have been only five Federation ships named Enterprise. Everything else (OV-101, XCV-330, NX-01) wasn't part of the Federation and the Federation's Starfleet.
 
The phrase "Federation ship Enterprise" implies Starfleet. The two terms are interchangeable.

If a ship is not Starfleet, it's a civilian vessel - that is to say, privately owned. And thus, not a Federation ship.
 
The phrase "Federation ship Enterprise" implies Starfleet. The two terms are interchangeable.

If a ship is not Starfleet, it's a civilian vessel - that is to say, privately owned. And thus, not a Federation ship.
That's an assumption. The computer(being the computer), would never identify the NX-01 as a "Federation Starship" if it's a pre Federation Starship, and was retired when the Fed was founded
 
That's an assumption. The computer(being the computer), would never identify the NX-01 as a "Federation Starship" if it's a pre Federation Starship, and was retired when the Fed was founded

Well, of course the NX-01 doesn't count, since there was no Federation when that ship was in existence. In that case it would be "EARTH ship = Starfleet ship".
 
If a ship is not Starfleet, it's a civilian vessel - that is to say, privately owned. And thus, not a Federation ship.
A ship could be non-Starfleet, and be Federation.

The United Nations directly owns passager and transport aircraft.

When the computer said "There have been five Federation ships with that name," it might not have been referring to Starfleet vessels.
 
Since the series in question has concluded over a decade ago, is it reasonable criticize its allegedly sexist portrayal when all other Trek(and most sci-fi) display the same presentations?

Yes, because second-wave feminism had already happened by 2001.

Oh you twenty-first century Earthicans with your stuffy, backward attitudes about sex. The body, it is nothing to be ashamed of, no?

This is a non sequitur. Nobody is arguing that sexuality is a bad thing. We are arguing that female sexuality should not be depicted in ways that objectify the women, that are there for hetero male viewing pleasure.

T'Pol wears skin tight clothes because, maybe personal preference,

Which would be inconsistent with her emotionally reserved personality and Vulcan culture.

but crew of Enterprise do not treat her as object of much sexual desire.

Do you understand the difference between a metatextual analysis and an in-universe analysis?

For instance: A horror film that depicts the last humans on Earth as two white guys, a black guy, and a white woman may be anti-racist in-universe if those white folk view that black character as their friend and equal, but the film may still be racist metatextually if it upholds the trope of Black Guy Dies First.

They hardly notice, no? She is treated as professional peer in utmost respect.

"I'm doing the breast that I can!" - Archer, "A Night in Sickbay"

Oh yeah. No objectification here.

As fact, hear me out, all crew should be wearing skin tight uniforms, is quicker to get into spacesuit in emergency, yes? It is, how you say, long john underwear. So T'Pol, as logical Vulcan, is better prepared for emergency.

No.

Mr Laser Beam. I know that. Been around a while. I first gazed upon Jolene Blalock in the pages of Maxim before she was cast. Not like she didn't know what she was getting into. Compare that to Lena Durham in Girls. Seems like when chubby girls get naked, it's heralded as empowerment again the patriarchy. Athletic woman in tight garments, sexism.

You do realize that there are other women on Girls who also regularly do nude scenes or sex scenes, such as Allison Williams, who are conventionally Hollywood-thin?

There's an important difference in how the nudity and sexuality on shows like Girls is treated compared to, say, shows like Entourage or Game of Thrones -- or Star Trek: Enterprise. On Girls, female sexuality is not depicted on terms dictated by hetero men. The intent of the depiction is not to titillate hetero men, it is to express something about the female characters being depicted.

That's the difference. Is the sexuality being depicted a sexuality-for-others, or a sexuality-for-self? Is the woman being displayed for male pleasure, or is the woman asserting her sexual agency?

Sexxx $ales in both cases, we are just choosing which to be more indignant.

No. There is an important metatextual difference whether or not you are capable of understanding it.

Starfleet pre-dates the Federation,

While the Federation Starfleet undoubtedly inherited a lot of its personnel and assets, I see no reason to presume that the United Earth Starfleet was the same organization from a legal standpoint. That would be like arguing that the Massachusetts Naval Militia is the same organization as the United States Navy.

it pre-dates United Earth too, possibly it pre-dates the "New United Nations" as well.

Evidence?
 
When the computer said "There have been five Federation ships with that name," it might not have been referring to Starfleet vessels.

What are you talking about? We know that the 1701, the A, the B, the C and the D are all Starfleet ships! Why are you even arguing about it?

This isn't some obscure reference that we're trying to decipher here. It's something established and it is common knowledge.
 
A ship could be non-Starfleet, and be Federation.

The United Nations directly owns passager and transport aircraft.

When the computer said "There have been five Federation ships with that name," it might not have been referring to Starfleet vessels.

Unlikely. Even if the Federation does operate ships that are not Starfleet, they would not assign the name Enterprise to such a ship. That's such an important name that the Federation would surely reserve it for a Starfleet ship of the line.
 
I think some people want to believe there was an Enterprise (or two) between NX-01 and NCC-1701.

Personal preferences and beliefs are fine and good but we shouldn't confuse it with official canon.

While the Federation Starfleet undoubtedly inherited a lot of its personnel and assets, I see no reason to presume that the United Earth Starfleet was the same organization from a legal standpoint. That would be like arguing that the Massachusetts Naval Militia is the same organization as the United States Navy.

Exactly. This.


Now, to get back on topic, here's a nice article about T'Pol's (sexist?) wardrobe on the show:
http://www.thegeektwins.com/2014/12/7-surprising-facts-about-star-trek.html?m=1
 
Is the woman being displayed for male pleasure, or is the woman asserting her sexual agency?
Why does a woman need to assert her sexual agency? What is the expected result? Male pleasure? Female pleasure?Some form of equality? Power? Statement against the status quo? It is as if they declared, "we will use the worst male traits regarding sex that we despise, and use them to elevate ourselves to equal standing." Whether or not it's a man or a woman behind the camera or writing checks, nudity and sex in entertainment is used to excite both sexes. We have a primal reaction to it, and we like that spike of endorphin. I think it's bullshit to reject one form of (mild) sexual presentation, and accept another (explicit) because of the gender controlling the presentation.
 
Yes, because second-wave feminism had already happened by 2001.



This is a non sequitur. Nobody is arguing that sexuality is a bad thing. We are arguing that female sexuality should not be depicted in ways that objectify the women, that are there for hetero male viewing pleasure.



Which would be inconsistent with her emotionally reserved personality and Vulcan culture.



Do you understand the difference between a metatextual analysis and an in-universe analysis?

For instance: A horror film that depicts the last humans on Earth as two white guys, a black guy, and a white woman may be anti-racist in-universe if those white folk view that black character as their friend and equal, but the film may still be racist metatextually if it upholds the trope of Black Guy Dies First.



"I'm doing the breast that I can!" - Archer, "A Night in Sickbay"

Oh yeah. No objectification here.



No.



You do realize that there are other women on Girls who also regularly do nude scenes or sex scenes, such as Allison Williams, who are conventionally Hollywood-thin?

There's an important difference in how the nudity and sexuality on shows like Girls is treated compared to, say, shows like Entourage or Game of Thrones -- or Star Trek: Enterprise. On Girls, female sexuality is not depicted on terms dictated by hetero men. The intent of the depiction is not to titillate hetero men, it is to express something about the female characters being depicted.

That's the difference. Is the sexuality being depicted a sexuality-for-others, or a sexuality-for-self? Is the woman being displayed for male pleasure, or is the woman asserting her sexual agency?



No. There is an important metatextual difference whether or not you are capable of understanding it.



While the Federation Starfleet undoubtedly inherited a lot of its personnel and assets, I see no reason to presume that the United Earth Starfleet was the same organization from a legal standpoint. That would be like arguing that the Massachusetts Naval Militia is the same organization as the United States Navy.



Evidence?
A "non sequitur" is a "leap in logic" where your starting point is an assumption or generalization, or some other fallacy. It's not a straightforward opinion of how people should dress expressed sardonically.

Here's a non-sequitur:
-TNG possibly portrayed Troy in sexist manner. The actress herself seems to acknowledge this

-Vague generalization about "second wave feminism" having occurred since then. (This is ill-defined, subjective, and assumptive as to what effects this should or should not have on future Trek.)

-Therefore, producers of Voyager and Enterprise should have known better.

What this non sequitur amounts to is "Yeah, TNG did it, but second wave feminism hadn't even hit yet, so how could they have known"

It also ignores Marina Sirtis' comments, which show that the characters of seven(especially), and T'Pol are far less objectified than Troy was(or how about Leeta, a walking definition of Sirtis' claimed Hollywood sexist stereotype.)
 
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