T'pol's uniform/first vulcan in Star Fleet

[Prax]

Yup, nothing sexist about Seven of Nine's uniform at all! Move along, move along.

Don't you mean "Move along home?" lol

This thread isn't about if Seven's outfit is sexist. It's about why T'Pol wears what she does when no one else has to, and if shes the first Vulcan in SF, etc.

The answer of course, is T'Pol wasn't a member of Starfleet; but a member of the VHC.

And if Seven's depiction is sexist(although the heels are dumb, imo, and they should've given her some slouch boots or something), then so is T'Pol, Kira, Leeta, Troy, a whole bunch of TOS gals, and a whole bunch of guest characters and background cast on TOS, TNG, DS9, et al.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

This thread isn't about if Seven's outfit is sexist. It's about why T'Pol wears what she does when no one else has to, and if shes the first Vulcan in SF, etc.

The answer of course, is T'Pol wasn't a member of Starfleet; but a member of the VHC.

True dat. But shouldn't T'Pol wear the same uniform as everyone else on the ship she is currently attached to?

(Remember, on DS9 when Jadzia briefly served aboard a Klingon vessel, she wore a Klingon uniform...)

 

[I'dRatherBeOnVulcan]

While I made this thread specifically to talk about T'Pol and not necessarily about the producers sexist choice to put her in a catsuit but just the question of whether she should wear a SF uniform and if she was the first Vulcan in starfleet, I would like to add that in the VOY episode Human Error (7x18) Seven runs holodeck simulations to experiment with humanity and integrating herself into the crew. During these simulations she decides to wear a Starfleet uniform therefore she obviously wants to better fit in with the crew and perhaps even join Starfleet. She's more than earned it.

Getting back to T'Pol, after reading through everyone's posts, it still seems there's no answer as to whether she's the first Vulcan in SF or not. Ah well, unless stated otherwise I'm going to assume not, considering Starfleet and Vulcans have been working together since first contact in the 2060s.

Another thing I'd like to bring up, I was watching the ENT episode Countdown (3x23) a few days ago and T'Pol mentions she's considering formalizing her service at Starfleet after the Xindi mission is over, and Trip says "Can you imagine the look of Soval's face when he sees her in a Starfleet uniform?" meaning she would be wearing a SF uniform and it sounds me like the producers were heading this way with season 4. Obviously that didn't happen and she went on wearing those ridiculous v-neck catsuits. Can anyone confirm if it was ever mentioned on screen that she decided not to formalize her position?

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

While I made this thread specifically to talk about T'Pol and not necessarily about the producers sexist choice to put her in a catsuit but just the question of whether she should wear a SF uniform and if she was the first Vulcan in starfleet, I would like to add that in the VOY episode Human Error (7x18) Seven runs holodeck simulations to experiment with humanity and integrating herself into the crew. During these simulations she decides to wear a Starfleet uniform therefore she obviously wants to better fit in with the crew and perhaps even join Starfleet. She's more than earned it.

Getting back to T'Pol, after reading through everyone's posts, it still seems there's no answer as to whether she's the first Vulcan in SF or not. Ah well, unless stated otherwise I'm going to assume not, considering Starfleet and Vulcans have been working together since first contact in the 2060s.

Another thing I'd like to bring up, I was watching the ENT episode Countdown (3x23) a few days ago and T'Pol mentions she's considering formalizing her service at Starfleet after the Xindi mission is over, and Trip says "Can you imagine the look of Soval's face when he sees her in a Starfleet uniform?" meaning she would be wearing a SF uniform and it sounds me like the producers were heading this way with season 4. Obviously that didn't happen and she went on wearing those ridiculous v-neck catsuits. Can anyone confirm if it was ever mentioned on screen that she decided not to formalize her position?

I believe s1 & s2 mentioned on several occassions that other VHC 'observers' and possibly Vulcan IME staff had been assigned to UESF vessels before and that her service had been the longest ever, however, the quote from Countdown would seem to suggest that she was likely the first (possibly only) Vulcan to serve in the United Earth Starfleet (she wore the Enterprise mission patch and Starfleet Commander's pips on her on-duty clothing in s4 implying that her service was formalized, and it's not unlikely that she was the first Vulcan to hold a ship command in the integrated Federation Starfleet post-2161.

 

[Nerys Myk]

(Remember, on DS9 when Jadzia briefly served aboard a Klingon vessel, she wore a Klingon uniform...)

But she's a Klingonophile. Riker wore his Starfleet uniform when he served on a Klingon ship.

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

While I made this thread specifically to talk about T'Pol and not necessarily about the producers sexist choice to put her in a catsuit but just the question of whether she should wear a SF uniform and if she was the first Vulcan in starfleet, I would like to add that in the VOY episode Human Error (7x18) Seven runs holodeck simulations to experiment with humanity and integrating herself into the crew. During these simulations she decides to wear a Starfleet uniform therefore she obviously wants to better fit in with the crew and perhaps even join Starfleet. She's more than earned it.

Getting back to T'Pol, after reading through everyone's posts, it still seems there's no answer as to whether she's the first Vulcan in SF or not. Ah well, unless stated otherwise I'm going to assume not, considering Starfleet and Vulcans have been working together since first contact in the 2060s.

Another thing I'd like to bring up, I was watching the ENT episode Countdown (3x23) a few days ago and T'Pol mentions she's considering formalizing her service at Starfleet after the Xindi mission is over, and Trip says "Can you imagine the look of Soval's face when he sees her in a Starfleet uniform?" meaning she would be wearing a SF uniform and it sounds me like the producers were heading this way with season 4. Obviously that didn't happen and she went on wearing those ridiculous v-neck catsuits. Can anyone confirm if it was ever mentioned on screen that she decided not to formalize her position?

One distinction should be made. Earth Starfleet we see in ENT is not the same organization as the UFP Starfleet we see in TOS and afterwards. So T'Pol and Spock could very well both be the first Vulcans to join in their respective Starfleets.

 

[Tuskin38]

Another thing I'd like to bring up, I was watching the ENT episode Countdown (3x23) a few days ago and T'Pol mentions she's considering formalizing her service at Starfleet after the Xindi mission is over, and Trip says "Can you imagine the look of Soval's face when he sees her in a Starfleet uniform?" meaning she would be wearing a SF uniform and it sounds me like the producers were heading this way with season 4. Obviously that didn't happen and she went on wearing those ridiculous v-neck catsuits. Can anyone confirm if it was ever mentioned on screen that she decided not to formalize her position?

Memory-Alpha seems to consider her part of Starfleet. She does wear the Starfleet rank Insignia and assignment patch.

 

[Prax]

While I made this thread specifically to talk about T'Pol and not necessarily about the producers sexist choice to put her in a catsuit but just the question of whether she should wear a SF uniform and if she was the first Vulcan in starfleet, I would like to add that in the VOY episode Human Error (7x18) Seven runs holodeck simulations to experiment with humanity and integrating herself into the crew. During these simulations she decides to wear a Starfleet uniform therefore she obviously wants to better fit in with the crew and perhaps even join Starfleet. She's more than earned it.

Getting back to T'Pol, after reading through everyone's posts, it still seems there's no answer as to whether she's the first Vulcan in SF or not. Ah well, unless stated otherwise I'm going to assume not, considering Starfleet and Vulcans have been working together since first contact in the 2060s.

Another thing I'd like to bring up, I was watching the ENT episode Countdown (3x23) a few days ago and T'Pol mentions she's considering formalizing her service at Starfleet after the Xindi mission is over, and Trip says "Can you imagine the look of Soval's face when he sees her in a Starfleet uniform?" meaning she would be wearing a SF uniform and it sounds me like the producers were heading this way with season 4. Obviously that didn't happen and she went on wearing those ridiculous v-neck catsuits. Can anyone confirm if it was ever mentioned on screen that she decided not to formalize her position?

In S2-Ep26: The Expanse, T'Pol is recalled back to Vulcan as the VHC and Soval don't want her going with the Earthlings into the expanse. She, being loyal to Archer, decides to say "Ayh do whattthiwant!" And resigns. She's effectively a civilian with no rank(but still serves Archer as science officer/first officer) until S4Ep4 Borderland(Soong/augment arc), where she is formally accepted into the United Earth Star Fleet, and given the rank of Commander. She mostly wears a Vulcan/Human hybrid uniform after this point, which includes rank and patch.

 

[Tenacity]

But she's a Klingonophile. Riker wore his Starfleet uniform when he served on a Klingon ship.

Does anyone think the Romulan officer who was briefly assigned to the Defiant to monitor the cloaking device should have been require to wear a Starfleet uniform?

Earth Starfleet we see in ENT is not the same organization as the UFP Starfleet we see in TOS and afterwards.

That's debatable (and has been), I think Starfleet is essentially the same organization through the centuries, only real difference is it gets progressively larger over time. YMMV.

Memory-Alpha seems to consider her part of Starfleet.

*big sigh* Memory alpha.

 

[Nerys Myk]

That's debatable (and has been), I think Starfleet is essentially the same organization through the centuries, only real difference is it gets progressively larger over time. YMMV.

I think the Federation Starfleet was more or less built around Earth's.

 

[Prax]

True, in fact it seems that Humans end up ruling the galaxy(through "cooperation" of course.) The Federation/Starfleet, run from Earth, continue spreading outward. They assimilate cultures and technology, and add them to their own. They won't assimilate ANYone though. They must first have at least warp capabilities.

By the 29th century, the Humanocentric Federation can travel to any place, and any time, in the galaxy. They regulate temporal events to maintain their Hegemony. They could only do this with complete political authority over every other species.

 

[Tuskin38]

*big sigh* Memory alpha.

Did you read the rest of my post? She wears everything except the uniform. She even holds rank.

 

[Sci]

And if Seven's depiction is sexist(although the heels are dumb, imo, and they should've given her some slouch boots or something), then so is T'Pol, Kira, Leeta, Troy, a whole bunch of TOS gals, and a whole bunch of guest characters and background cast on TOS, TNG, DS9, et al.

Yes. Star Trek has a problem with sexist, objectifying depictions of women throughout its history. This is not news.

True dat. But shouldn't T'Pol wear the same uniform as everyone else on the ship she is currently attached to?

I think it would make more sense for her to wear the uniform of the Vulcan space service -- apparently called the Vulcan High Command? -- while she is an officer in that service in Seasons One and Two; and for her to wear the uniform of the United Earth Starfleet when she is given a field commission in the UESF. (Really, she should have been given a UESF field commission in Season Three.)

In general, I would argue that characters should wear the uniform of the service of which they are officers, whether or not they are being seconded to another service on a deployment.

Getting back to T'Pol, after reading through everyone's posts, it still seems there's no answer as to whether she's the first Vulcan in SF or not.

She is clearly the first Vulcan in the United Earth Starfleet. Other Vulcan officers had been seconded to UESF vessels before but had not been able to last nearly so long due to cultural conflicts. Later, she is given a UESF commission, at a time when United Earth and Vulcan are still separate sovereign states, so their space services are distinct.

I see no reason to think Spock was the first Vulcan in the Federation Starfleet, though; it makes no sense that Vulcan would be a Federation Member State from its founding in 2161 yet not a single Vulcan would serve in the entire Federation Starfleet until the 2250s. That would be like Scotland and England forming the Kingdom of Great Britain in 1707 yet not a single Scotsman serving in the Royal Navy for 90 years; it strains plausibility.

Can anyone confirm if it was ever mentioned on screen that she decided not to formalize her position?

Nope -- she did indeed formalize her position and was given a UESF commission. She wore a UESF mission patch and rank insignia. The producers just didn't have her wear an actual UESF uniform because "sexy."

 

[psCargile]

You're the boss at your company and you have instituted a rule that says that women employees have to wear skin-tight catsuits (which explicitly lift the bosom, I might add) at the office. (Comparable since members of space services like the United Earth Starfleet and the Vulcan High Command are required to wear duty uniforms.) Now try arguing that what you're doing isn't sexist and objectifying when they complain.

I would be delighted to see how many sexual harassment lawsuits your company is able to fight at once.

At Cat Burglars Incorporated, it's the uniform of the day.

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

That's debatable (and has been), I think Starfleet is essentially the same organization through the centuries, only real difference is it gets progressively larger over time. YMMV.

If you remember the Enterprise-D's computer tells us that "there have been five Federation ships with that name". So clearly the Enterprise-NX isn't considered a ship of the United Federation of Planets' Starfleet.

True, in fact it seems that Humans end up ruling the galaxy(through "cooperation" of course.) The Federation/Starfleet, run from Earth, continue spreading outward. They assimilate cultures and technology, and add them to their own. They won't assimilate ANYone though. They must first have at least warp capabilities.

By the 29th century, the Humanocentric Federation can travel to any place, and any time, in the galaxy. They regulate temporal events to maintain their Hegemony. They could only do this with complete political authority over every other species.

That sounds more like the Terran/Klingon/Romulan Empire or the Borg than the UFP that we know.

And if Seven's depiction is sexist(although the heels are dumb, imo, and they should've given her some slouch boots or something), then so is T'Pol, Kira, Leeta, Troy, a whole bunch of TOS gals, and a whole bunch of guest characters and background cast on TOS, TNG, DS9, et al.

Just because Trek has a history or a "tradition" of sexist portrayal of females that doesn't mean that it should continue it in the '00s or even in the '10s.

 

[KennyB]

At Cat Burglars Incorporated, it's the uniform of the day.

Well played.

 

[Prax]

Just because Trek has a history or a "tradition" of sexist portrayal of females that doesn't mean that it should continue it in the '00s or even in the '10s.

Since the series in question has concluded over a decade ago, is it reasonable criticize its allegedly sexist portrayal when all other Trek(and most sci-fi) display the same presentations? The thread should probably then be in "General"

It would be more productive to define some terms, and determine how T'Pol's depiction is uniquely sexist, what we mean when we say "sexist", etc.

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

It would be more productive to define some terms, and determine how T'Pol's depiction is uniquely sexist, what we mean when we say "sexist", etc.

Fair enough. I'd say gratuitous decontamination and massage scenes (totally irrelevant with the general plot) and her unnecessary nudity in general, are sexist. Your mileage may vary of course.

Spoiler: Warning: NSFW !!!

Exhibit A

Exhibit B

 

[Prax]

Fair enough. I'd say gratuitous decontamination and massage scenes (totally irrelevant with the general plot) and her unnecessary nudity in general, are sexist. Your mileage may vary of course.

You got me there....



....Ahem(changes subject)

So there's this really funny conversation between Reed and Tucker in Harbinger about "Vulcan Neuro-Pressure"

TUCKER: That target practice was something. Sure looked a easier than it was.
REED: You don't say.
TUCKER: Oh, come on. Your score got a lot better as the session went on.
REED: I started picturing Hayes' head in place of the target.
TUCKER: You two really ought to declare a truce.
REED: Oh, no. This is a fight to the death.
TUCKER: I guess if I were in your shoes, I'd be just as upset.
REED: He's determined to take over the security of this ship, you know.
TUCKER: You really believe that?
REED: Everything he does points to the fact.
TUCKER: Well, it could also be that he wants everyone to be as prepared as possible. You have to admit the extra training isn't such a bad idea.
REED: Just drop it.
TUCKER: Okay.
REED: So, why don't you tell me about you and Miss Cole?
TUCKER: We're friends. Is everyone on this ship watching us?
REED: You're pretty hard to miss.
TUCKER: That's what T'Pol said.
REED: Is it true she's giving Amanda neuro-pressure now?
TUCKER: So?
REED: I heard it was damage control from your tender touch.
TUCKER: T'Pol's just smoothing out some of the rough spots. That's all.
REED: And why were you giving Amanda Cole neuro-pressure anyway?
TUCKER: What's it to you?
REED: Well, from what I'm told, it's a pretty intimate procedure, for just friends.
TUCKER: I do it with T'Pol. Are you implying there's something going on there as well?
REED: That's the rumour.
TUCKER: Look, for the last time, there's nothing going on with any of us, between any of us.
REED: Right. You're all just friends.
TUCKER: That's right.
REED: I guess this Vulcan neuro-pressure isn't that intimate after all.
TUCKER: Exactly.
REED: In that case, I've got a nasty little pain just
TUCKER: Just drop it.

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[psCargile]

Oh you twenty-first century Earthicans with your stuffy, backward attitudes about sex. The body, it is nothing to be ashamed of, no? T'Pol wears skin tight clothes because, maybe personal preference, but crew of Enterprise do not treat her as object of much sexual desire. They hardly notice, no? She is treated as professional peer in utmost respect. As fact, hear me out, all crew should be wearing skin tight uniforms, is quicker to get into spacesuit in emergency, yes? It is, how you say, long john underwear. So T'Pol, as logical Vulcan, is better prepared for emergency.