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The President's Office

Back to the issue of the Palais...

It should be remembered that The Romulan War novel establishes that that structure was NOT built specifically for the Federation. It served as the home of the United Earth government.

No it doesn't. The Romulan War establishes that the United Earth Prime Minister has an office -- possibly his primary office, though that seems to contradict ENT: Kobayashi Maru, in which the Prime Minister is depicted as using an office in San Francisco -- at the Place de la Concorde, that's all.

The Place de la Concorde, mind you, is a real place. The Romulan War does not feature the Palais.

I founf that to be an unfortunate revelation since once again, it appears that the federation simply adopts something from Earth.

I agree that the idea that the Palais is built on the site of a former United Earth government agency is a bad, Earth-centric notion.

While we are on the subject of the Federation President, In want to know who's idea it was to call the Presidential starship Paris One? I would have prefered something like the USS United Federation of Planets or Federation One.

Presumably they wouldn't have the "U.S.S." thing unless it's a Starfleet vessel; KRAD has noted on this BBS that Paris One is non-Starfleet. In the Myriad Universes novel The Chimes at Midnight, the Federation of an alternate 2280s calls any Starfleet vessel the President is aboard Starfleet One.
 
So "Paris One" would be the equivalent of Americas "Executive One," any civilian-operated craft carrying the president.
 
So "Paris One" would be the equivalent of Americas "Executive One," any civilian-operated craft carrying the president.

Not necessarily. We don't know if any civilian ship carrying the President receives the designation Paris One or if Paris One is just literally the name of that particular ship.
 
That could probably be divined from the context, though.

If the President were to travel on a starship, one would expect "Starfleet One" to be the callsign rather than the name of the ship if we heard it used as identification in communications, rather than casually mentioned by people professionally unrelated to the President's travels, or by the narrating voice. Does the use of "Paris One" fall in one or the other of the above categories?

Timo Saloniemi
 
It's hard to tell, for me anyway, based on the writing.

However, Articles established that there are three shuttles named after 22nd-century Presidents (The T'Maran, sh'Rothress, and al-Rashid) that are used to transport the President and their staff and security details. Whether those shuttles go everywhere the President goes or if they are reserved for just Sol system transportation I don't know.

Memory Beta, while not being 100% perfect, indicates that Paris One is a non-Starfleet "dedicated presidential transport".
 
Articles of the Federation has a scene where a journalist muses on the fact that the Palais de la Concorde's Council Chambers is the same room where 22nd Century President ...
I suppose it possible that the government is in a newer building, newer structure, but that the entire council chamber itself was physically moved to the new location for historical reasons.

A problem I have with the quote I pulled from Sci's post is the Federation started with a half dozen members in the 22nd century, by the 24th century and the movie FC they had over 150 members, and they're meeting in the same council chamber? The US House of Representatives no longer meets in their original chamber in the US capital building, the chamber was too small.

:lol:
 
It is especially weird when you consider that the original Federation Council would have had four members! Each of them must have held three cabinet positions!
 
It would have made meetings go by quicker.

"And now we'll hear from T'Maran, Federation Councillor from Vulcan and Secretary of the Exterior, Transportation, and Health and Humanoid Services..."
 
It is especially weird when you consider that the original Federation Council would have had four members! Each of them must have held three cabinet positions!

Well, it's certainly possible members originally sent more than just one representative. Heck, maybe even 50! Could explain how they still use the same chamber.

As for cabinet positions, do you mean the 'British' system where every minister has to be a MP at the same time? I still haven't read 'Articles' but I'm not sure that's how the UFP govt works.
 
The Federation President can name whoever they want to their Cabinet, from what I've read.

I don't recall any mention of confirmation hearings, apart from the President appointing members of the Council to be Chairs of the various subcomittees, though.
 
That could probably be divined from the context, though.

If the President were to travel on a starship, one would expect "Starfleet One" to be the callsign rather than the name of the ship if we heard it used as identification in communications, rather than casually mentioned by people professionally unrelated to the President's travels, or by the narrating voice. Does the use of "Paris One" fall in one or the other of the above categories?

Timo Saloniemi

In Articles of the Federation -- written before KRAD created Paris One -- President Bacco travels aboard the U.S.S. Venture, and there is never any indication given that the Venture assumes a different name or callsign.

Of course, there's no indication that it does not, either.

Memory Beta, while not being 100% perfect, indicates that Paris One is a non-Starfleet "dedicated presidential transport".

I wrote that entry, and I based it on a comment KRAD made on this board clarifying that Paris One was a non-Starfleet ship dedicated to presidential transport.

Interestingly, though, if we're wondering why the Venture was used to transport the President to Koa at the end of Articles instead of Paris One, A Singular Destiny establishes that Paris One had been disabled by an ion storm in June of 2380, during the Borg Supercube Crisis depicted in TNG: Before Dishonor, which is why the Council tried to handle that crisis by itself and the President never appeared. Perhaps Paris One was still being repaired in late 2380 when Koa was admitted to the Federation?

Articles of the Federation has a scene where a journalist muses on the fact that the Palais de la Concorde's Council Chambers is the same room where 22nd Century President ...
I suppose it possible that the government is in a newer building, newer structure, but that the entire council chamber itself was physically moved to the new location for historical reasons.

I don't buy it. I think it's pretty clear that the Palais was standing by the late 22nd Century.

A problem I have with the quote I pulled from Sci's post is the Federation started with a half dozen members in the 22nd century, by the 24th century and the movie FC they had over 150 members, and they're meeting in the same council chamber? The US House of Representatives no longer meets in their original chamber in the US capital building, the chamber was too small.

Yeah, and obviously the Federation plans ahead a bit better!

Another possibility is that the Chamber, and the Palais in general, have both been expanded since their construction. It's not like it's all that hard to make a room bigger, and with 22nd/23rd/24th Century technology, I can't imagine it's that hard to add floors to a building, either. And, indeed, Articles makes mention of the need to periodically add new rows of chairs for new Federation Councillors.

It is especially weird when you consider that the original Federation Council would have had four members! Each of them must have held three cabinet positions!

No, you're misremembering things. In the novels, the Federation has a separate Cabinet which consists of persons appointed to run the executive departments; those Cabinet Members are not Federation Councillors. Now, the President and Cabinet Members work closely with the chairs and members of the relevant Federation Council committees, but those Councillors are not actually Cabinet members.

And the early Federation Council would have had five members: A Federation Councillor from United Earth, the Confederacy of Vulcan, the Andorian Empire, the United Planets of Tellar, and Alpha Centauri, presided over by the first Federation President. Given this Council's size, I would infer that it would probably have done much of the work later handled by sub-councils as a committee of the whole.

The Federation President can name whoever they want to their Cabinet, from what I've read.

I don't recall any mention of confirmation hearings, apart from the President appointing members of the Council to be Chairs of the various subcomittees, though.

The process by which Cabinet Members are appointed is unestablished. But we have never seen a Cabinet Member who was also a Federation Councillor, which strongly implies that they cannot hold both offices. A novel might come along and contradict this later on, but that seems improbable.
 
It doesn't seem likely that council members could be cabinet members. The former is legislative, the latter executive. The UFP government seems to have a less absolute separation of powers than the US government, but still, the job responsibilities are rather different. And I would imagine that one person serving as both a legislator and a member of the executive branch could lead to conflicts of interest.
 
It doesn't seem likely that council members could be cabinet members. The former is legislative, the latter executive. The UFP government seems to have a less absolute separation of powers than the US government, but still, the job responsibilities are rather different. And I would imagine that one person serving as both a legislator and a member of the executive branch could lead to conflicts of interest.

Well, it works well enough for the countries that follow the Westminster system, where Cabinet members are usually appointed from the Parliament. But of course the cost of that is that the Cabinet Members become "absentee MPs" -- they don't usually vote on legislation.

But the Federation doesn't use the Westminster system, of course, so that's all neither here nor there.
 
As Sci said it is the rule in places like Canada, the UK, Australia and much of Europe. The idea is to hold the government accountable for its actions. Losing a confidence vote usually means either finding a new governing coalition or calling an election. Money bills are automatically confidence votes.

It's known as "Responsible Government" vs. "Checks and Balances".

The US is at the extreme opposite in maintaining such a strict separation between branches.

Ministers drive the agenda of the House much more in parliamentary systems. They are also subject to constant questioning in the House over their decisions.

In the novels, T'Latrek as chair of the External Affairs Committee carries many of the legislative duties that a Minister of the Crown would carry out in a Westminster parliamentary system, in addition to their administrative role.
 
As Sci said it is the rule in places like Canada, the UK, Australia and much of Europe. The idea is to hold the government accountable for its actions. Losing a confidence vote usually means either finding a new governing coalition or calling an election. Money bills are automatically confidence votes.

It's known as "Responsible Government" vs. "Checks and Balances".

The US is at the extreme opposite in maintaining such a strict separation between branches.

Ministers drive the agenda of the House much more in parliamentary systems. They are also subject to constant questioning in the House over their decisions.

In the novels, T'Latrek as chair of the External Affairs Committee carries many of the legislative duties that a Minister of the Crown would carry out in a Westminster parliamentary system, in addition to their administrative role.

Well, this is an area where it's unfair to equate the Federation system with the Westminster or Presidential systems. Councillor T'Latrek is Chair of the External Affairs Council and certainly works to help formulate policy; but, by the same token, the primary foreign policy advisor remains the Secretary of the Exterior (Safranski of Rigel), who advises on and executes foreign policy. And the External Affairs Council and the Federation Security Council both seem to provide the sort of legislative oversight seen in the U.S. system.
 
I think my confusion stems from T'Latrek, who is a councilor, but also a minster, but checking her first appearance in Diplomatic Implausibility shows me that she is clearly "one of the Federation Council's ministers for external affairs" (emphasis mine).
 
^^

Just pointing out that KRAD did a decent job of keeping the Federation's politics different enough from any of the systems we work with today, but still relate-able and compact enough character-wise to work efficiently and effectively on the page.

For those of us who live under parliamentary systems, it's gratifying when the things that we live with are taken notice of in Trek.
 
I think my confusion stems from T'Latrek, who is a councilor, but also a minster, but checking her first appearance in Diplomatic Implausibility shows me that she is clearly "one of the Federation Council's ministers for external affairs" (emphasis mine).

Yeah, KRAD's done a bit of retconning there. She was referred to as "minister" in Diplomatic Implausibility, but in his annotations for A Singular Destiny, KRAD said, "Councillor T'Latrek of Vulcan first appeared in Diplomatic Implausibility (where she was inaccurately referred to as a minister)."
 
"Minister" can also mean a diplomat, ranking directly below "Ambassador". Traditionally Ambassadors were only exchanged between Heads of State, while Ministers were exchanged between governments. In the 19th Century it was only Crowned Royalty that exchanged ambassadors. The United States usually only sent and received Ministers as the President was seen as elected and therefore second-class by European royalty.

Since WWII diplomatic Ministers are infrequently seen since republics have become so common. Everybody has moved to using "Ambassador" as a way to be courteous to all nations (you never know when you might need that favour).
 
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