The Kobayashi Maru Solution.

[T'Girl]

In the original universe James Kirk entered the Starfleet Academy in his late teens, graduated in his early twenties. At some point Kirk took the Kobayashi Maru test three times, he reprogrammed the test so he could save the ship and received a commendation for original thinking. From Kirk's statements in TWOK.

In the Abrams universe James Kirk entered the academy in his early twenties and graduated in his mid twenties. At some point Kirk took the Kobayashi Maru test three times, he reprogrammed the test so he could destroy the Klingon attackers and faced a Academy hearing for violating the ethical code of conduct. As we saw on screen.

Was Kirk's solution for solving the test the same in both universes? If Gaila entered the academy at the same time in both universes, she would have entered after younger Kirk graduated and would have been unavailable to have helped him (non-canon), If the arrival of the Narada change academy procedures, that could have accounted for the different treatment of the two Kirk's using the same solution.

The original Kirk was a younger man at the time of the test, he was his father's son and many believe he was more studious. His solution might have been more intellectual, I believe it was in the (non-canon) novel Kobayashi Maru that told one version of the story where Kirk peacefully solve the test and in the end invited the Klingon commander for dinner aboard the Enterprise. A (possible different?) peaceful solution might have been the reason Kirk was given a commendation for "cheating."

The Abrams's Kirk on the other hand was older at the time of the test, raise without the in aid of George Kirk and prior to entering the academy he was more rebellious. His solution was more violent, it involved causing five klingon warbirds to drop their shields so he could destroy all five with a single photon torpedo each. Perhaps it was the method of Kirk's solution (in addition to the reprogramming) that resulted in the academy hearing for ethics.

The two tests might have been different, the earlier version of the test might have presented one Kirk with options the other Kirk didn't have available to him. In older Kirk's test he was directly ordered to rescue the ship by Starfleet, during Saavik's test she was given the option of whether or not she wished to initiated a rescue. Also during Saavik's test, there was a possibility the Kobayashi Maru wasn't even there. It's not obvious that Spock programmed the test or was running the simulator when younger Kirk took his test.

What do you think?

 

[sbk1234]

It seemed to me that it was never determined what the outcome was in Abrams' Trek, regarding Kirk's hearing. It's entirely possible that he would have gotten the comendation for original thinking there, too. As for reconciling the changes to the timeline, Kobayashi Maru was one of the smallest to deal with. As far as I'm concerned, it's a lot more difficult dealing with a Chekov who's the wrong age, according to canon, Scotty and Kirk having entirely different careers, according to canon, and the destruction of Vulcan. Again, thank God it's an alternate timeline and a fictional movie, or else this stuff would really bug me.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Personally, I tend to think the outcome of the Kobayashi Maru test was the same in both universes--Kirk was able to defeat the Klingon ships and save the disabled civilian vessel--but I kind of think the style in which he did it was probably different. In TOS, there's some suggestion that Kirk Prime was ambitious, but more of a golden boy than a bad boy at the Academy (he may even have been considered a no-nonsense stick-in-the-mud by Gary Mitchell). Kirk Prime probably took the test very seriously while he took it--no smug attitude, no eating an apple, and no "pew-pew" the Klingon ships with an imaginary gun.

But just like nuKirk, Kirk Prime was likely immediately called before the Commandant and was placed on academic probation for a while. But ultimately, the Academy staff did rule in his favor...most likely (as nuMcCoy proposed). The commendation for original thinking probably came later, IMO.

 

[Orcus]

I agree with CE Evans there about the whole style of approach over actual solution being the difference.

However, I don't necessarily agree with the idea of the commendation idea. True, the original Kirk may have earned one but I doubt the NuKirk would have received one. I think the Academy would likely refuse to consider the award on the grounds of NuKirk's insufferable smugness...

 

[F. King Daniel]

Re: Same canon?

I don't think there's anything in the canon to suggest how old Prime Kirk was when he joined the academy. As far as I can tell all we have is an assumption in the Star Trek Chronology and some flashback novels.

Speaking of old novels, I really enjoyed Julie Ecklar's Kobayashi Maru, which gives a good version of how Kirk (and Scotty and Sulu) took the test. I can't remember much about it, but I think Kirk programmed the simulated Klingons to flee after learning that the "fearsome warrior" Kirk was in command of the rescue ship.
IIRC Scotty beat his Kobayashi Maru test using his engineering knowledge: Exploiting a theoretical weakness in the Klingon ships (which, as Scotty knew, doesn't really work outside simulations) he destroyed dozens of Klingon ships and eventually crashed the simulator.

The less said about the Enterprise Kobayashi Maru novel (they meet the "real" ECS Kobayashi Maru, and Archer "fails" and leaves them to die at the hands of Romulan-controlled Klingon ships), the better

 

[T'Girl]

Kirk was able to defeat the Klingon ships and save the disabled civilian vessel

It's not clear if original Kirk saved a civilian ship, Saavik went after a civilian ship (fuel carrier), Abrams Kirk was ordered to save the USS Kobayashi Maru. Which kind of sounds like a Starfleet vessel. The more I think of it, the more I like the idea that original Kirk thought his way to a solution, as opposed to fighting his way to a solution. It would be more in keeping with the man we saw during TOS.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Kirk was able to defeat the Klingon ships and save the disabled civilian vessel

It's not clear if original Kirk saved a civilian ship, Saavik went after a civilian ship (fuel carrier), Abrams Kirk was ordered to save the USS Kobayashi Maru. Which kind of sounds like a Starfleet vessel.

I'm more inclined to believe that in the Prime Universe, the Kobayashi Maru (no USS) was indeed a civilian ship just like the one during Saavik's test. I don't see any reason to believe it was different for Kirk Prime.

The Abramsverse USS Kobayashi Maru, however, is a different story and does seem to be a Starfleet tanker.
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/File:USS_Kobayashi_Maru.jpg

Different universes, different versions of the same ship, IMO...

 

[Mr Silver]

Yeah theres a lot of suggestion that Prime Kirk solved the Kobayashi Maru with the following tactics and reasoning

*Kirk reprogrammed the simulator, with the intention that by the time he would be Captain, his reputation would be known throughout the Klingon Empire and they would take him seriously during skirmishes (notice how this is usually the case in TOS "Klingon Episodes"?)

*With the reprogramming to these variables, Kirk opens hailing frequencies with the Klingon Ships during the simulation and they recognise him, The Klingons delay attacking, giving Kirk and his crew time to come up with a "Kirk Bluff" and save the Kobayashi Maru's crew, destroy the enemy vessels and escape the Neutral Zone with minimal damage to themselves

Thats the impression I got.


Logically the best chance to win the Kobayshi Maru Scenario (although it could still fail) is for the Captain to hand himself over in exchange for the lives of his crew and the Kobayashi Maru's, a self sacrifice, although the Klingons would likely (and the Romulans in later simulations, definatly) go back on their word and instead destroy both ships, while using the captured Starfleet Captain as political lure

 

[SpyOne]

I don't think Kirk's solution to the scenario had to be a thinking man's solution, because ... his solution was a thinking man's solution.

In TNG Quality of Life, Data is trying to recreate the Exocomp's self-preservation behavior using a simulation. It doesn't work because the Exocomp realizes it's a simulation, and therefore it is in no danger. In fact, when allowed to run past the arbitrary time limit, it actually "fixes" the thing that was simulating dangerous conditions.
Same deal with Kirk and the Kobayshi Maru: he "thought outside the box" and realized that he wasn't trying to beat those Klingons or save that ship, he was trying to defeat that simulation. It really isn't important whether he made the Klingon ships weaker or put in a code-word that would make them disappear, although I do think that Kirk would have done something vaguely plausable: not put in a "win" button, just make it so it is no longer impossible to win. Then, beat the redefined scenario.

Oh yes, there would be a board of inquiry. It would look mighty bad for Jimmy Kirk.
But in the end, it would be the first of many situations where Jim Kirk presented his superiors with a solution to a problem that made them go "I don't know whether to throw you in the brig or promote you, and frankly I'm not sure which one's worse."

"It had the advantage of having never been tried."

 

[barnaclelapse]

I tend to think the result was about the same, too. I think the alternate universe just takes us a slightly longer path in getting to that same result as the original universe.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Kirk was able to defeat the Klingon ships and save the disabled civilian vessel

It's not clear if original Kirk saved a civilian ship, Saavik went after a civilian ship (fuel carrier), Abrams Kirk was ordered to save the USS Kobayashi Maru. Which kind of sounds like a Starfleet vessel. The more I think of it, the more I like the idea that original Kirk thought his way to a solution, as opposed to fighting his way to a solution. It would be more in keeping with the man we saw during TOS.

Considering Kirk's response in TOS to any hostile alien was shoot to kill (see Tha Man Trap, Devil In The Dark, and Arena) I think he wouldn't have a problem fraging the Klingons.

I don't think Kirk's solution to the scenario had to be a thinking man's solution, because ... his solution was a thinking man's solution.

In TNG Quality of Life, Data is trying to recreate the Exocomp's self-preservation behavior using a simulation. It doesn't work because the Exocomp realizes it's a simulation, and therefore it is in no danger. In fact, when allowed to run past the arbitrary time limit, it actually "fixes" the thing that was simulating dangerous conditions.
Same deal with Kirk and the Kobayshi Maru: he "thought outside the box" and realized that he wasn't trying to beat those Klingons or save that ship, he was trying to defeat that simulation. It really isn't important whether he made the Klingon ships weaker or put in a code-word that would make them disappear, although I do think that Kirk would have done something vaguely plausable: not put in a "win" button, just make it so it is no longer impossible to win. Then, beat the redefined scenario.

Oh yes, there would be a board of inquiry. It would look mighty bad for Jimmy Kirk.
But in the end, it would be the first of many situations where Jim Kirk presented his superiors with a solution to a problem that made them go "I don't know whether to throw you in the brig or promote you, and frankly I'm not sure which one's worse."

"It had the advantage of having never been tried."

Except this makes him look like an ass trying to hide what he did where as NuKirk was over the top because he wanted them to know he reprogramed the test.

 

[T'Girl]

Considering Kirk's response in TOS to any hostile alien was shoot to kill (see Tha Man Trap, Devil In The Dark, and Arena) I think he wouldn't have a problem fraging the Klingons.

In Balance of Terror, after Kirk disabled the Romulan ship --------he seize fire and offered assistance.
In Elaan of Troyius, after he partially disabled the Klingon ship -- he seize fire and allowed it to withdraw.
In Journey To Babel, after he disabled the Orion ship ------------- he seize fire and offered surrender.
In The Waith of Khan, after he disabled the Reliant ----------------he seize fire and told Khan his ship was to be boarded.

In Star Trek Eleven, after the five Klingon warship completely lost their shields, cadet Kirk did not offer them a chance to surrender, nor did Kirk point out their lack of shield and command them to withdraw. Instead, cadet Kirk fired on the unshielded ships destroying them.

Doesn't even sound like the same man does it?

In Arena, Kirk at the end could have easily killed the Gorn, he didn't because it was at his mercy and the real James Kirk possesses mercy. The same story with the Horta, he was willing to fire upon it only while it was in a aggressive posture, once wounded he held his fire. I'm convinced that if he could have captured the Salt Vampire live, he would have. This is what leads me to believe the the original Kirk would have sought out a non-violent solution to the test when he himself reprogrammed it.

Why would that Kirk reprogram a change into the test that then required him to destroy the klingon ships?

.

 

[DonIago]

Cadet Kirk -isn't- the same man... that being said, he obviously knew the Klingon ships were simulations and he wasn't going to actually kill anyone. Plus he'd made his contempt for the scenario itself pretty clear by that point.
Hell, this is why I think Troi's "killing" holo-Geordi in "Thine Own Self" is a weak test. "Oh no, I have to tell a non-sentient hologram to go kill itself!"

When offered the scenario of a badly-damaged ship for real, he -did- offer to beam aboard survivors. Got flipped the bird for his troubles.

 

[T'Girl]

In the case of the Narada I believe Kirk didn't simply want to save the crew (and it's commander) although he did want to do that too. I think Kirk's primary purpose was to deprive the Narada of a crew, to leave it empty. The Narada was about to (maybe) travel through time again, Kirk didn't know where it would end up. When he couldn't get the crew off, Kirk ordered it destroyed.

It was a practical decision that both of the Kirks would have made.

 

[DonIago]

Oh, I completely agree that the ship itself had to be destroyed, but Kirk didn't need to offer to save the crew first either. I wish certain posters would stop harping on this part of the film.

 

[RyanKCR]

Considering Kirk's response in TOS to any hostile alien was shoot to kill (see Tha Man Trap, Devil In The Dark, and Arena) I think he wouldn't have a problem fraging the Klingons.

In Balance of Terror, after Kirk disabled the Romulan ship --------he seize fire and offered assistance.
In Elaan of Troyius, after he partially disabled the Klingon ship -- he seize fire and allowed it to withdraw.
In Journey To Babel, after he disabled the Orion ship ------------- he seize fire and offered surrender.
In The Waith of Khan, after he disabled the Reliant ----------------he seize fire and told Khan his ship was to be boarded.

In Star Trek Eleven, after the five Klingon warship completely lost their shields, cadet Kirk did not offer them a chance to surrender, nor did Kirk point out their lack of shield and command them to withdraw. Instead, cadet Kirk fired on the unshielded ships destroying them.

Doesn't even sound like the same man does it?

In Arena, Kirk at the end could have easily killed the Gorn, he didn't because it was at his mercy and the real James Kirk possesses mercy. The same story with the Horta, he was willing to fire upon it only while it was in a aggressive posture, once wounded he held his fire. I'm convinced that if he could have captured the Salt Vampire live, he would have. This is what leads me to believe the the original Kirk would have sought out a non-violent solution to the test when he himself reprogrammed it.

Why would that Kirk reprogram a change into the test that then required him to destroy the klingon ships?

.

But Remember NuKirk did offer assistance to Nero and his crew.

Edit-Drat was addressed while I was posting........

 

[Praxius]

..... In the Abrams universe James Kirk entered the academy in his early twenties and graduated in his mid twenties. At some point Kirk took the Kobayashi Maru test three times, he reprogrammed the test so he could destroy the Klingon attackers and faced a Academy hearing for violating the ethical code of conduct. As we saw on screen.

Was Kirk's solution for solving the test the same in both universes?

Just to jump in on this question, I would suggest that his solution was different from the original Kirk's actions.

The new Kirk's father was killed, he never met his father and because of Nero's ship coming back in time and all that was just mentioned, Kirk changed in some aspects and probably turned out to be more of a badass then the original Kirk (due to no real father figure in his life, or whatever Troi explanation you'd like)

I imagine the original Kirk cheated in a manner that showed charisma and reasoning.... while the New Kirk just flat out hacked the thing and blatantly pulled a Bart Simpson ass mooning to the whole system with a one finger salute.

 

[Marten]

Why is deserting the ship not a valid solution? Considering how the Klingons are likely to react, the best outcome would be two ships lost instead of one. Or at worst, a new war.

 

[T'Girl]

In the list of choices, withdraw would be an option, in the novel Kobayashi Muru I believe that was Sulu's choice.

In a different novel one cadet darted in, destroyed the Maru himself and then ran back into Federation space, that too had never been tried before.

 

[DonIago]

Agreed on both counts. The merits of those approaches is left as an exercise for the reader.