The characters' ages in TOS (a discussion, not a question)

[Shamrock Holmes]

When did they describe the runabouts as 'starships'? I don't remember that. They are small craft that anyone, even civilians, can pilot with a little training, more like a seagoing ship's boats. Realistic or not, that's how they were treated, and it would have changed the dynamic to have a flight crew along when, for instance, Worf, Jadzia, Bashir, Leeta, and Quark all headed off to Risa.

Referred to as 'vessels' (a term usually exculsive of shuttlecraft) in dialogue in DS9: Emissary: Station log. Stardate 46390.1. The Enterprise has been ordered to the Lapolis system. They're scheduled to depart at zero-five hundred hours after offloading three runabout class vessels. Meanwhile, our medical and science officers are arriving, and I'm looking forward to a reunion with a very old friend. [Bold mine]

Also, the generally observed notion that runabouts have individual registrations and are referred to as "USS X" rather than using the name of the 'home base' (for instance USS Rio Grande NCC-72452, rather than say Rio Grande DS9-1 ala Gallileo NCC-1701/7 or Picasso SB11-1201-1).

 

[KennyB]

When did they describe the runabouts as 'starships'? I don't remember that. They are small craft that anyone, even civilians, can pilot with a little training, more like a seagoing ship's boats. Realistic or not, that's how they were treated, and it would have changed the dynamic to have a flight crew along when, for instance, Worf, Jadzia, Bashir, Leeta, and Quark all headed off to Risa.

Yeah I kind of always thought of them as a Federation version of a tender boat...........

 

[kkt]

Yes, runabouts have their own registration numbers and warp drive and the ability to go long distances, in varying degrees of comfort. But that doesn't make them starships. Starships are a "very special vessel and crew" (Bread and Circuses). Starships are large enough to do almost all their own maintence and repairs, for multiyear missions. Runabouts depend on their bases for that.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

That select spinoffs should be excluded from consideration has never appealed to me. Star Trek is patchwork, and TOS itself more so than any other of its incarnations. When spinoffs do such good work at reproducing TOS production details (better than TOS itself, internally), my hat's off to them.

I'm fine with that. I'm just not nuts about some of the spinoffs' tendencies to make proclamations about TOS (or worse, outright retcon it) when none of the production team was involved with TOS at all.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Yes, runabouts have their own registration numbers and warp drive and the ability to go long distances, in varying degrees of comfort. But that doesn't make them starships. Starships are a "very special vessel and crew" (Bread and Circuses). Starships are large enough to do almost all their own maintence and repairs, for multiyear missions. Runabouts depend on their bases for that.

Okay, I accept that they aren't quite the same as starships. Your point about maintainence is instructive. However, I still think that they should have had a flight crew, particularly on occassions where non-command personnel (usually Bashir or Odo [whose knowledge of runabout operations is limited]) take it out as the only authorised person. This was particularly obvious in one episode where Dukat acts as Sisko's co-pilot (The Maquis part 1?) because he's the only other person onboard (do I need to explain why this is ridiculous?)

 

[Timo]

Why not just admit the costume department messed up or that getting military ranks correct was not a priority when they produced the first few TOS episodes.

Admitting to that is separate from figuring out how the fictional Star Trek universe works. And how it works is not the result of the efforts of those who made Star Trek - it happens despite what they did or failed to do...

As for semi-civilian ignorami taking the runabouts for a spin, this just highlights how user-friendly 24th century technology is! I doubt there's any real need for a co-pilot, and even the presence of a pilot appears optional (we see remote control in "Armageddon Game" at least).

Excessive user-friendliness can backfire, though. When Dukat accompanied Sisko, I thought I saw Chekov's phaser hanging on the wall. Turns out it was just a replica: when Sisko in Pt II decided to let Cal Hudson escape, Dukat did not use his expert knowledge of runabout controls that was established in Pt I to press the firing button and blast Hudson to republic come. Oh, well.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Kor]

The costume department did not "mess up" the rank stripes in The Cage and WNMHGB. The later system just hadn't been developed yet. It's easy enough to handwave the differences away by rationalizing that the stripes didn't mean exactly the same thing in-universe as they did later. No need to get hung up on all the nitpicky details. I prefer to focus on the story and characters instead.

Kor

 

[KyleCampbell]

I don't think casting young people for roles of authority would have been a good idea. That's the one thing that has bothered me about the Kelvin Timeline. I like the way the original crew was portrayed. It gave the ship and crew some history, which was GR intent anyway. He didn't want a brand new ship or a new crew, he wanted something already established in universe.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I don't think casting young people for roles of authority would have been a good idea. That's the one thing that has bothered me about the Kelvin Timeline. I like the way the original crew was portrayed. It gave the ship and crew some history, which was GR intent anyway. He didn't want a brand new ship or a new crew, he wanted something already established in universe.

Most of the cast of the Kelvin films were in their late twenties or early thirties. Urban, Pegg and Cho were in their late thirties. So, who are these "young people"?

 

[KyleCampbell]

Most of the cast of the Kelvin films were in their late twenties or early thirties. Urban, Pegg and Cho were in their late thirties. So, who are these "young people"?

Kirk, Uhura, Chekov, Sulu were all cadets when they were stuck on Enterprise. The actors may have been older, but they were playing kids. That's all I was saying.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Kirk, Uhura, Chekov, Sulu were all cadets when they were stuck on Enterprise. The actors may have been older, but they were playing kids. That's all I was saying.

We don't AFAIK have any hard info on Uhura and Sulu (although I would imagine they are in their early-to-mid twenties), Chekov - played by then 20-year old Anton Yelchin - was specifically seventeen, so he was a 'kid'. Kirk was 22 when he entered the Academy so about 25 (played by 29-year old Pine in both cases) when he came on board the Enterprise, so I wouldn't characterise him as a 'kid'

 

[F. King Daniel]

We don't AFAIK have any hard info on Uhura and Sulu (although I would imagine they are in their early-to-mid twenties), Chekov - played by then 20-year old Anton Yelchin - was specifically seventeen, so he was a 'kid'. Kirk was 22 when he entered the Academy so about 25 (played by 29-year old Pine in both cases) when he came on board the Enterprise, so I wouldn't characterise him as a 'kid'

FWIW, here's the birthdates of the Kelvin universe Enterprise crew, according to IDW. It differs somewhat from to ages of the TOS crew according to the old Star Trek Chronology/Encyclopedia etc

So, when Kirk's 25 (the bulk of ST'09), Spock is 28, Uhura 25, Sulu 21( John Cho was 37 in 2009!), Chekov 17, McCoy 30 and Scotty 36.

 

[MAGolding]

I think some of the characters' ages are canon, although some are bit more wibbly wobbly. I really like that they are not all young and inexperienced

I think Spock was a lieutenant under Pike and was most likely mid twenties there, which would put him at least somewhere between Kirk and McCoy's age.

I'm not so sure about Chapel either. She'd had a scientific career prior to signing up, although admittedly we don't know for how long, and she was at least part way through an MD on top of that. She was most likely early thirties.

Rand was unofficially 24 in Miri (a line excised from the script) but I've seen some suggestion that a graphic in Flashback might have listed her DOB as being a year older than Kirk, similar to the real actors. Charlie X suggests that the latter is more plausible. She's also a senior non-com so a few miles on the clock makes more sense.

I've also seen a role-playing game that listed the ages as follows (presumably around the time of season 2)

Kirk 34
Spock 40
McCoy 40
Scotty 45
Sulu 29
Uhura 27
Chapel 31
Chekov 22
Rand 26 (or 35 if a year older than Kirk)

In the second season Kirk was 34 in "The Deadly Years", and the season was 11 years after he was a lieutenant according to "Obsession" and 13 years after he was a lieutenant according to "A private Little War". Kirk was a first year cadet at Sarfleet Academy 15 years before "Shore leave".

Chekov was 22 in "Who morns for Adonais?" but was probably aboard the Enterprise in time for "Space seed".

Sarek was 102.437 in "Journey to Babel" which meant that Spock could have been older than the rest - except that his mother Amanda looked a lot younger than 102! The script and The making of Star Trek say she was 58, about the age of Jane Wyatt. So Spock's age should be 58- X, X being Amanda's age when spock was born. Note that because Spock joined Starfleet he hasn't spoken to Sarek as son and father for 18 years or since Amanda was about 40. So Spock entered Starfleet Academy, or maybe graduated and was commissioned, when Amanda was 40. Spock served with Captain Pike for 11 years and was on the Enterprise with Pike, apparently the senior lieutentant after # 1 and third in command, 13 years before the first season episode "Menagerie".

Scott's age in "Relics" and the elapsed time give his age in "Generations" even though they seem to be alternate universes. That is not much help with his age in TOS.

McCoy was 137 in "Encounter at Farpoint" which can give his age in TOS if the interval can be correctly deduced.

McCoy and Scott were probably in their 40s in TOS, Kirk was 34 in "The Deadly Years" , Spock should have been older than Kirk ("Menagerie" & "Journey to Babel") but also should have been younger than Kirk ("Journey to Babel").

Chekov was 22 in "Who Mourns for Adonais?" Rand, Sulu, and Uhura should have been significantly older than Chekov and younger than Kirk.

It seems to me that the creators of the official chronology have not carefully considered the various factors which rather tightly constrain the ages and career dates of Kirk, Spock, and Chekov, and it is inaccurate in places.

Anyway, according to the official (but not canonical and somewhat flawed) chronology:

Scott was born in 2222.
McCoy was born in 2227.
Spock was born in 2230.
Kirk was born in 2233.
Sulu was born in 2237.
Uhura was born in 2239.
Chekov was born in 2245.
"The Cage" 2254.
"Where No Man has Gone Before" 2265.
First season TOS. 2266-2267.
Second season TOS 2267-68.
Third season TOS 2268-2269.

Thus in the second season the official chronology makes Scott 45/46, McCoy 40/41, Spock 37/38, Kirk 34/35, Sulu 30/31, Uhura 28/29, Chekov 22/23.

 

[MAGolding]

Yes, runabouts have their own registration numbers and warp drive and the ability to go long distances, in varying degrees of comfort. But that doesn't make them starships. Starships are a "very special vessel and crew" (Bread and Circuses). Starships are large enough to do almost all their own maintence and repairs, for multiyear missions. Runabouts depend on their bases for that.

According to Commodore Stone in "Court Martial", a starship captain commands hundreds of crew persons. A runabout does not fit that TOS era definition of a starship. But TNG era shows seem to use a looser definition of a starship than TOS. But I think that runabouts were still too small to be called starships.

 

[MAGolding]

OTOH, he was senile at the time and might have misremembered even his own age. Now there is a mistake your friends will be way too embarrassed to point out...

Spock in TAS "Yesteryear" said he was seven during events that preceded the episode by 30 years sharp, so that's a fix, too. Beyond the three, the heroes are free-floaters, more or less, even when counting the animation.

Regardless of the impact or significance of Shatner's relative youth during the series, it's interesting to note that Kirk's apparent youth never really warrants a comment in-universe. When he meets fellow starship commanders, those are generally given extra age and extra rank for dramatic reasons, making Kirk the underdog in a conflict. Only the evil Tracey gets to wear the same braid as Kirk yet play out a dramatic and prolonged conflict with him, and Woodward is fully allowed to let his greater age show in the character - it doesn't make him Kirk's inferior in any respect. But despite Kirk ending up as the junior of the lot, he never gets credited with things like "skyrocketing career", "boy genius" or "that inexperienced upstart".

Even the spinoff shows refrain from commenting on Kirk's age, which is remarkable against the pressure of fandom misconceptions of him as "the yongest ever".

Timo Saloniemi

I say the others might have felt it was their duty to point out every mistake Kirk made.

As for Kirk's youth Commodore Mendez says that Pike is about Kirk's age. Since Pike was the captain or "skipper" 13 years earlier he would seem to have Kirk's record beaten. But if Mendez was much older than both Kirk and Pike he might not consider Pike's possibly greater age important. And he might remember Pike's age from meeting him many years before, not from just last year.

The fanon that Kirk was the youngest starship captain comes from a semi canon source. As I remember The Making of Star Trek says: "Kirk was the youngest academy graduate to be assigned as a starship command captain". Divide the sentence into phrases. "Kirk was" "The youngest" "Academy graduate" "to be assigned" "as a starship command captain". Kirk's "record" must be consistent with the range of possible meanings of each of those phrases - if one accepts The Making of Star Trek as canon.

Kirk's possible competition for the possible title of youngest starship captain would seem to be Pike, Garth of Izar, Willard Decker and in TNG Picard and Tryla Scott.

Timo wrote:

No.

We know Tryla Scott is the 24th century gold standard there, but her age in the episode is unknown and so is the age at which she achieved the rank/position. Or perhaps she graduated older than Kirk but also joined Starfleet at a later age and therefore wins the race?

We don't know her age or how long she was a captain, or whether her ship counted as a starship by TOS era standards. But Picard said that she became captain the fastest, which means in the shortest time since some previous event. Being the youngest captain means becoming captain in the shortest time since birth. Tryla Scott could have become captain in the shortest time since birth, or since enterng Starfleet Academy, or since graduating Starfleet Academy and being commissioned, or since entering starfleet as an enlisted person, etc. etc.

Nor do we know whose record she broke there, although the other three in that cave were apparently contestants (Picard probably excluded), or by how much. Perhaps Kirk had never been a serious opponent?

Picard would seem to be a serious contestant considering that the first season was 8 or 9 years after he lost the Stargazer after being the legendary commander and captain of it for 22 years. Thus Picard could have been a starship captain in position and/or rank for up to 31 years before the first season of TNG, which would make him a contender.

The age at which Kirk achieved Captain is equally unknown (unless we decide it was between his pilot episode and "Corbomite Maneuver", as his sleeve braid changes there, but some don't want to interpret the pilot braid that way). And perhaps Tracey or Decker got the promotion even earlier on?

If you assume that Kirk was age 34.0 to 35.0, or perhaps 33.0 to 36.00, in all second season episodes, and if he was still a lieutenant 11 years (11.0 to 12.0) before "Obsession", he would be still a lieutenant about age 21.0 to 25.0. If you assume that Kirk became a starship captain sometime between right after fighting the space vampire when aged 21.0 to 25.0 and right before the second season when aged 33.0 to 36.0, you can narrow down the age range when Kirk became captain to 21.0 to 36.0, which is not very precise.

Kirk entered Starfleet Academy aged 17.0 to 22.0 if the entrance age is the same as in 20th century US service academies. Assuming that upperclassmen like Finnegan who tormented Kirk in his first year would graduate about June, about 9 months or 0.75 years after Kirk entered about September, Kirk would have been about 17.75 to 22.75 when he last saw Finnegan 15 (15.0 to 16.0) years before "Shore Leave". Thus Captain Kirk would be aged about 32.25 to 38.75 in "Shore Leave". If all first season episodes are less than one year before or after "Space Seed" Kirk's age in the first season would be somewhere between 33.25 and 39.75, including in "Court Martial" when he was a starship captain in rank and position.

And so on. It seems pretty probable that Kirk became a captain in his late 20s or early 30s.

There is no evidence about how long Matt Decker was a Commodore and a captain before that, and no evidence how long Ron Tracey was a captain. If Willard Decker was the same age as Stephen Collins he would be a (probably recently promoted) captain age 31/32.

Apart from these musings, the concept of "youngest at X" is never mentioned in Trek! Except in "Rascals" where Troi jokes that the rejuvenated Picard could now become the youngest Admiral ever.

That is true. Except for the semi canonical The Making of star Trek and probably also the Star Trek Writer's Guide.

 

[MAGolding]

Worst case I've seen is Steve Mcqueen playing a 17-year old in the Blob. He looked about 40. Although John Travolta and Olivia Newton John were about 15 years too old to play teenagers too!

Obviously you never saw the "My Fair Pharaoh" episode of Fantasy Island 10 May 1980 with Michael "Kang" Ansara (April 15, 1922-July 31, 2015) as Ptolemy XIII.

 

[Neopeius]

Courtmartial makes it clear that Kirk is unusually young for a starship captain. Look at all those resentful faces in the bar of his contemporaries ("I see our graduating class from the Academy is well represented") who wear less braid on their sleeves.

And TOS, unlike all of its successors, is strongly rooted in the naval traditions of the time. 34 is an age for Lieutenant Commanders (if you assume Shatner's age for Kirk, which you shouldn't, then he's at a good Commander's age). Granted, wartime can make younger rank-holders, and Matt Decker may well have been ~Kirk's age when he got the broken middle stripe.