That South African He/She runner

[Cakes488]

But isn't that what we do? Speculate??

 

[Deckerd]

Oh absolutely. But some posters think they are stating 'facts' because an Aussie newspaper journo wrote something down on the back of a ciggy packet down at the Dingo and Platypus half an hour before press.

 

[JustKate]

I have to say, I feel a little funny speculating about this, too. Speculating about a celebrity or a politician is one thing - you throw yourself into the public eye, you gotta take what the public gives you. But jeez, she's not much more than a kid, from my perspective, all she did was run in and win a race, and whatever the truth is, it's not her fault.

 

[DiSiLLUSiON]

All we know, is that she was admitted. As such, she is not 100% a man. Thus she should be allowed to compete. We don't disqualify other factors either, do we? We all know that life isn't 100% completely fair, least of all sport. Live with it.

 

[TheLonelySquire]

How can she be biologically female without being born with ovaries? She can live anyway she wants, but how will that affect female athletics? That dude was a mile ahead.

Gotta love that James Earl Jones voice too.

 

[TheLonelySquire]

this reminds me of that "guy" who got pregnant a couple years ago. I didnt really understand what the big fuss was about b/c technically he was always a woman, so it wasnt like suddenly "whoa, a guy got pregnent!" Gender identity wise-yeah he identifies as a guy, but biologically he was female so why was it such a surprise he could get pregnant?

Because society is afraid to tell her that while she can want to be a man but she will forever be a woman. It is what it is.

 

[wamdue]

I have to say, I feel a little funny speculating about this, too. Speculating about a celebrity or a politician is one thing - you throw yourself into the public eye, you gotta take what the public gives you. But jeez, she's not much more than a kid, from my perspective, all she did was run in and win a race, and whatever the truth is, it's not her fault.

she is 18 legally an adult across most of the world (if not the entire world)

as for her, not putting herself in the public eye, I disagree an event like the "World Athletics Championships" is going to be on global TV, something anyone who takes parts knows, they know that if something of interest happens at this event, it will become global news.

If she is infact an hermaphrodite (which is looking likely to be the case) she (should I stop using gender pro nouns at this point? ) s/he knew s/he would be on a world stage, and that there is a chance people might ask questions.

in terms of is s/he legally a man or a woman, I confess I have not thought about which race an hermaphrodite should race in before.

 

[JustKate]

I have to say, I feel a little funny speculating about this, too. Speculating about a celebrity or a politician is one thing - you throw yourself into the public eye, you gotta take what the public gives you. But jeez, she's not much more than a kid, from my perspective, all she did was run in and win a race, and whatever the truth is, it's not her fault.

she is 18 legally an adult across most of the world (if not the entire world)

as for her, not putting herself in the public eye, I disagree an event like the "World Athletics Championships" is going to be on global TV, something anyone who takes parts knows, they know that if something of interest happens at this event, it will become global news.

If she is infact an hermaphrodite (which is looking likely to be the case) she (should I stop using gender pro nouns at this point? ) s/he knew s/he would be on a world stage, and that there is a chance people might ask questions.

in terms of is s/he legally a man or a woman, I confess I have not thought about which race an hermaphrodite should race in before.

She. Didn't. Know. OK? Everyone, including her mother, has considered her a female since the day she was born. She. Didn't. Know. about hormone levels and so on. How could she? As far as anybody knows, this is a simple honest mistake. Give the kid a break.

And yeah, I said "kid." Eighteen may be legally adult, but it's pretty damn young to be pitchforked into something like this your first major race. I'm not talking about what's legal. I'm talking about what's fair.

 

[Cakes488]

^ On Good Morning America they said the tests were in and she is in fact a hermaphrodite.

 

[Rii]

Are we going to start keeping a list of natural (that is, inborn) traits that make competition "unfair"? Too tall, you can't compete. Fast metabolism, you can't compete. Born intersexed, you can't compete.

It's upon this very basis that the division between men and women's sports exists in the first place.

If the authorities involved had a problem with it, it should have surfaced before she was allowed to compete. Wanting to take her awards away now just smacks of sour grapes.

Maybe, but in any case I think it's more interesting to consider the issue in an abstract sense, and I don't think ignoring biology in favour of self-identification provides a satisfactory answer. If we consider the "like against like" principle that prevents dolphins from competing against swimmers, motorcyclists from competing against runners, adults from competing against children, and men from competing against women to be of value in competition, then inter-sexed folks clearly pose a problem. Any system seeking to accommodate them outside the traditional male/female dichotomy faces the practical issue that there simply aren't many such folks around, and I suspect that an "other" category, however labelled and delineated, would be both ethically and practically problematic. Yet if women possessing various male characteristics that serve to confer a material advantage are permitted to race alongside woman without such characteristics, is that not unfair to those women? In the long run, with our increasing ability to manipulate genetic structures, isn't there a risk of creating a women's sporting culture composed (at the elite level) almost entirely of such individuals?

 

[wamdue]

I have to say, I feel a little funny speculating about this, too. Speculating about a celebrity or a politician is one thing - you throw yourself into the public eye, you gotta take what the public gives you. But jeez, she's not much more than a kid, from my perspective, all she did was run in and win a race, and whatever the truth is, it's not her fault.

she is 18 legally an adult across most of the world (if not the entire world)

as for her, not putting herself in the public eye, I disagree an event like the "World Athletics Championships" is going to be on global TV, something anyone who takes parts knows, they know that if something of interest happens at this event, it will become global news.

If she is infact an hermaphrodite (which is looking likely to be the case) she (should I stop using gender pro nouns at this point? ) s/he knew s/he would be on a world stage, and that there is a chance people might ask questions.

in terms of is s/he legally a man or a woman, I confess I have not thought about which race an hermaphrodite should race in before.

She. Didn't. Know. OK? Everyone, including her mother, has considered her a female since the day she was born. She. Didn't. Know. about hormone levels and so on. How could she? As far as anybody knows, this is a simple honest mistake. Give the kid a break.

given the world in which she competes and trains, I find it hard to believe that this was never questioned before now, you dont turn up at the World Athletics Championship over night, you have to enter other competitions to qualify, all of which would have seen people asking questions, but maybe ignoring the answer.

and she is not a kid, she is an adult, no matter the age an adult is an adult, is an adult.

 

[Rii]

and she is not a kid, she is an adult, no matter the age an adult is an adult, is an adult.

Conceptions of adulthood vary from culture to culture and influence the development of any child raised within it. The closest you can come to an objective measure is biological adulthood: the onset of puberty, itself fairly resistant to being reduced to a number that lends personal significance to the orbit of the Earth around the Sun.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

It's upon this very basis that the division between men and women's sports exists in the first place.

If the authorities involved had a problem with it, it should have surfaced before she was allowed to compete. Wanting to take her awards away now just smacks of sour grapes.

Maybe, but in any case I think it's more interesting to consider the issue in an abstract sense, and I don't think ignoring biology in favour of self-identification provides a satisfactory answer. If we consider the "like against like" principle that prevents dolphins from competing against swimmers, motorcyclists from competing against runners, adults from competing against children, and men from competing against women to be of value in competition, then inter-sexed folks clearly pose a problem. Any system seeking to accommodate them outside the traditional male/female dichotomy faces the practical issue that there simply aren't many such folks around, and I suspect that an "other" category, however labelled and delineated, would be both ethically and practically problematic. Yet if women possessing various male characteristics that serve to confer a material advantage are permitted to race alongside woman without such characteristics, is that not unfair to those women? In the long run, with our increasing ability to manipulate genetic structures, isn't there a risk of creating a women's sporting culture composed (at the elite level) almost entirely of such individuals?

There is no risk of women's sports being composed "almost entirely of such individuals." Just how common do you think intersexed people are?

I really don't care how it is handled, as long as any qualification issues are dealt with up front, and not left as a millstone around the competitor's neck. "Do too well at this, and we might have to reconsider whether you're really a woman."

Since this issue was not contentious before she started winning, that ship has sailed. She won. They can get over it. If the relevant authorities want to tweak how they deal with qualification in the future, sure, let them. As long as they set up a fair and consistent system, I don't care what the system actually is.

I simply object to any calls for stripping this woman of her winnings. It's not like she was born a man and is really a man and just masqueraded as a woman for the purpose of winning sporting events. That would be a whole different kettle of fish. Instead, this is a gray area with no clear answers, and I do not think she should be the one to suffer for it.

 

[JustKate]

given the world in which she competes and trains, I find it hard to believe that this was never questioned before now, you dont turn up at the World Athletics Championship over night, you have to enter other competitions to qualify, all of which would have seen people asking questions, but maybe ignoring the answer.

and she is not a kid, she is an adult, no matter the age an adult is an adult, is an adult.

What? If it was "questioned before now," how come nobody's come forward and said, "We tested her"? And if they had already tested her, why was there ever any question?

From what I understand, this was her first major international race, and since she's only 18, that would make sense.

And by the way, whether she's an adult or not, the way this situation has been handled is simply not fair. You may talk about her being an adult all you want, but I still say 18 is pretty damn young to be pitchforked into an international incident that, as far as I can tell, isn't her fault.

 

[Shaw]

Not that it makes any difference to anyone here, but Semenya's times would be about where you'd expect for a talented 18 year old male athlete. There is a good chance that Semenya would have made it to the California state finals for the boy's 800 meters, which was a race of mainly 17 and 18 year old athletes.

Who knows, maybe if Semenya is really talented and gets really good coaching, we might see the first women's record that surpasses the men's mark.

But Track & Field is a strange sport in this way... people who do extraordinary marks in slightly advantageous conditions sometimes won't get full credit for their accomplishment. Bob Beamon's jump in Mexico City is a prime example.

It'll be interesting either way.

 

[Amaris]

If the authorities involved had a problem with it, it should have surfaced before she was allowed to compete. Wanting to take her awards away now just smacks of sour grapes.

Maybe, but in any case I think it's more interesting to consider the issue in an abstract sense, and I don't think ignoring biology in favour of self-identification provides a satisfactory answer. If we consider the "like against like" principle that prevents dolphins from competing against swimmers, motorcyclists from competing against runners, adults from competing against children, and men from competing against women to be of value in competition, then inter-sexed folks clearly pose a problem. Any system seeking to accommodate them outside the traditional male/female dichotomy faces the practical issue that there simply aren't many such folks around, and I suspect that an "other" category, however labelled and delineated, would be both ethically and practically problematic. Yet if women possessing various male characteristics that serve to confer a material advantage are permitted to race alongside woman without such characteristics, is that not unfair to those women? In the long run, with our increasing ability to manipulate genetic structures, isn't there a risk of creating a women's sporting culture composed (at the elite level) almost entirely of such individuals?

There is no risk of women's sports being composed "almost entirely of such individuals." Just how common do you think intersexed people are?

I really don't care how it is handled, as long as any qualification issues are dealt with up front, and not left as a millstone around the competitor's neck. "Do too well at this, and we might have to reconsider whether you're really a woman."

Since this issue was not contentious before she started winning, that ship has sailed. She won. They can get over it. If the relevant authorities want to tweak how they deal with qualification in the future, sure, let them. As long as they set up a fair and consistent system, I don't care what the system actually is.

I simply object to any calls for stripping this woman of her winnings. It's not like she was born a man and is really a man and just masqueraded as a woman for the purpose of winning sporting events. That would be a whole different kettle of fish. Instead, this is a gray area with no clear answers, and I do not think she should be the one to suffer for it.

Precisely my sentiments as well. She should not be punished for simply being who she is.

J.

 

[Rii]

If the authorities involved had a problem with it, it should have surfaced before she was allowed to compete. Wanting to take her awards away now just smacks of sour grapes.

Maybe, but in any case I think it's more interesting to consider the issue in an abstract sense, and I don't think ignoring biology in favour of self-identification provides a satisfactory answer. If we consider the "like against like" principle that prevents dolphins from competing against swimmers, motorcyclists from competing against runners, adults from competing against children, and men from competing against women to be of value in competition, then inter-sexed folks clearly pose a problem. Any system seeking to accommodate them outside the traditional male/female dichotomy faces the practical issue that there simply aren't many such folks around, and I suspect that an "other" category, however labelled and delineated, would be both ethically and practically problematic. Yet if women possessing various male characteristics that serve to confer a material advantage are permitted to race alongside woman without such characteristics, is that not unfair to those women? In the long run, with our increasing ability to manipulate genetic structures, isn't there a risk of creating a women's sporting culture composed (at the elite level) almost entirely of such individuals?

There is no risk of women's sports being composed "almost entirely of such individuals." Just how common do you think intersexed people are?

In the long run, with our increasing ability to manipulate genetic structures...

I'm thinking a half-century from now. The track n' field version of Gattaca.

I simply object to any calls for stripping this woman of her winnings. It's not like she was born a man and is really a man and just masqueraded as a woman for the purpose of winning sporting events. That would be a whole different kettle of fish. Instead, this is a gray area with no clear answers, and I do not think she should be the one to suffer for it.

I agree, this whole experience must be horrible for her.

 

[Geckothan]

The way I see it, if someone has a pair of testes, they aren't female.

 

[Galactus]

Yeah 18 is an adult, cause we all know the majority of 18-year olds take care of themselves without any help. Things like this is why I gave up sports a few years ago. The media is merciless and has no respect. It is getting to the point where there is no such thing as a private person anymore. Second people never lose gracefully. If this girl had lost no one would have said jack. If they had a problem they should have taken care of it then. You run a lot of races before the finals. IAAF is stupid for letting this get out of hand and having no respect for this girl and anyone make jokes about what she is going through is just as stupid and sick. I love how we as humans love jumping on and making fun of people whose only crime in life was being born.

 

[Geckothan]

I agree that it's sick making things like this public, but the fact remains that someone with testes instead of ovaries can't really be considered truly female.