Survival Instinct - why did Ron Moore leave?

[Mogh]

I've been working my way through Voyager and I've hit the sixth season with some trepidation. I say that as from my memory, the last two seasons fell off a cliff in terms of storytelling.

However, I just watched Survival Instinct and was pleasantly surprised at just how good it is. A really emotional gut punch and dilemma by the end; some really good character work with Kim/Paris, Tuvok/Chakotay, Seven/Chakotay. A surprising tour-de-force and something that kept the Borg pretty menacing; I had misremembered that the demise of the Borg as a particularly scary threat had started in Dark Frontier and never recovered (great Seven character piece though it was, it made the Borg very "handleable") but here they were more like their First Contact heyday, which isn't surprising as one Ronald D Moore had joined the writing staff.

However, he quit shortly thereafter; offering a story credit for Barge of the Dead, but nothing more (no pun).

Does anyone know what the actual trigger was that made him think he couldn't do it, when the output suggests that he could? Both this episode and Equinox, part II (despite its flaws; although Moore would go on to it far better in Battlestar Galactica's "Pegasus") are a really solid start to the season. Was it just purely noxious politics? I remember reading him complaining about not being able to turn Voyager's writing around, but the first two eps look like it was off to a good start?

 

[DGCatAniSiri]

From what I understand, he was bringing up ideas and pushing back on the edicts from on high that Braga never really fought against (the kind of things that, as a counterpoint, Ira Stephen Behr in the DS9 writer's room would take as challenges instead of orders - things of the like of bringing the same storytelling sensibilities of DS9 to Voyager), Braga started freezing him out of the writers' discussions, and the straw that broke the camel's back was when he asked "okay, so in this situation, what would B'Elanna say?" the response he was given was "we don't know, do whatever." At that point, he realized that the Voyager situation just wasn't going to improve and he was not going to give his blood, sweat, and tears if it wasn't appreciated.

A shame, since like you said, Survival Instinct is a really solid episode in and of itself, and shows what can be done when there is care and consideration about the characters as people who experience things and they impact them going forward, even if it centering on Seven can be considered low hanging fruit, given the focus she got overall. I'll always regret what we didn't get with Voyager in general, but those sensibilities with the characters would have done so much for them...

 

[Mogh]

From what I understand, he was bringing up ideas and pushing back on the edicts from on high that Braga never really fought against (the kind of things that, as a counterpoint, Ira Stephen Behr in the DS9 writer's room would take as challenges instead of orders - things of the like of bringing the same storytelling sensibilities of DS9 to Voyager), Braga started freezing him out of the writers' discussions, and the straw that broke the camel's back was when he asked "okay, so in this situation, what would B'Elanna say?" the response he was given was "we don't know, do whatever." At that point, he realized that the Voyager situation just wasn't going to improve and he was not going to give his blood, sweat, and tears if it wasn't appreciated.

A shame, since like you said, Survival Instinct is a really solid episode in and of itself, and shows what can be done when there is care and consideration about the characters as people who experience things and they impact them going forward, even if it centering on Seven can be considered low hanging fruit, given the focus she got overall. I'll always regret what we didn't get with Voyager in general, but those sensibilities with the characters would have done so much for them...

That's really sad. It sounds like Braga (a writer responsible for some terrific episodes) tried and got beaten back - such as his desire for a season-long arc for Year of Hell, and eventually gave in and stopped trying. With more adventurous choices only permitted in the last two seasons of Enterprise when the audience had long since gone.

RDM could really have lifted Voyager. Utter tragedy he never got to.

 

[Boris Skrbic]

Utter tragedy he never got to.

No, since if he’d been welcomed with open arms and eventually given free-ish rein on ENT instead of Braga/Coto, we never would’ve had nBSG as we know it. Moore staying on for VGR was a misstep, nothing more.

 

[Mogh]

No, since if he’d been welcomed with open arms and eventually given free-ish rein on ENT instead of Braga/Coto, we never would’ve had nBSG as we know it. Moore staying on for VGR was a misstep, nothing more.

I think it's clear that it was so; but the general sentiment is that things couldn't have worked out differently as he'd have made a better show out of it.

 

[suarezguy]

It's hard to say what his impact would have been, probably overall some improvement but it seems like he wanted to make the show a pretty different show, like his idea that the crew should put Janeway on trial, that would feel very left field and against how the characters had been portrayed since season 2 (though ironically it could have maybe worked right after "Equinox" but even then probably not).

 

[Mogh]

It's hard to say what his impact would have been, probably overall some improvement but it seems like he wanted to make the show a pretty different show, like his idea that the crew should put Janeway on trial, that would feel very left field and against how the characters had been portrayed since season 2 (though ironically it could have maybe worked right after "Equinox" but even then probably not).

Oh, agreed - he needed to be a voice in the mix, but not unchallenged.

 

[STEPhon IT]

It's hard to say what his impact would have been, probably overall some improvement but it seems like he wanted to make the show a pretty different show, like his idea that the crew should put Janeway on trial, that would feel very left field and against how the characters had been portrayed since season 2 (though ironically it could have maybe worked right after "Equinox" but even then probably not).

It was Moore who thought of that idea??? Well, good minds think alike, I think that is a great idea, it would look at GOAT Janeway's journey through different eyes and reinforce it's not just a jolly ol' crew who all get along but gearing the Great One for something to come near a series finale. Internal conflict. There's nothing wrong with her having a learning perspective in which the crew wanted to make her understand some decisions she made had done some damage to their morale.

It would also be interesting if the great one discovered even her senior staff had these thoughts. As you mentioned, Moore's interesting ideas would've made VOY a different show and IMO a better one; I wanted a show similar to what DS9 was in its 1st three seasons where the stakes appeared high for the young crew and they had to be inventive to settle conflicts and best of all the solution was gray. It could be a good ending or it could make things a lot worse. GOAT Janeway needed some strong internal friction within that environment she created and it never happened.

 

[Mogh]

It was Moore who thought of that idea??? Well, good minds think alike, I think that is a great idea, it would look at GOAT Janeway's journey through different eyes and reinforce it's not just a jolly ol' crew who all get along but gearing the Great One for something to come near a series finale. Internal conflict. There's nothing wrong with her having a learning perspective in which the crew wanted to make her understand some decisions she made had done some damage to their morale.

It would also be interesting if the great one discovered even her senior staff had these thoughts. As you mentioned, Moore's interesting ideas would've made VOY a different show and IMO a better one; I wanted a show similar to what DS9 was in its 1st three seasons where the stakes appeared high for the young crew and they had to be inventive to settle conflicts and best of all the solution was gray. It could be a good ending or it could make things a lot worse. GOAT Janeway needed some strong internal friction within that environment she created and it never happened.

Agreed. It's often been said that the Maquis woes were wrapped up too early (they were) and that Voyager's constant pristine condition was absurd (it was).

During the last couple of seasons I found myself constantly rolling my eyes and saying "so what?". You found an anomaly - so what? An alien presence - so what?

It was supposed to be about the journey, but we see very little of that - of real struggles to run a ship for years, or more than the most surface evolution of the people on that journey. The show started out with a clear vision but ended being "stuff that could happen on any show, but befell a ship that just so happened to be in the Delta Quadrant".

 

[somebuddyX]

LCARSCOM.net Interview from 2000, formatting's gone to shit but great read.
IGN Interview from 2003, Voyager info starts about halfway down, but the whole thing is worth a read.

 

[STEPhon IT]

Agreed. It's often been said that the Maquis woes were wrapped up too early (they were) and that Voyager's constant pristine condition was absurd (it was).

During the last couple of seasons I found myself constantly rolling my eyes and saying "so what?". You found an anomaly - so what? An alien presence - so what?

It was supposed to be about the journey, but we see very little of that - of real struggles to run a ship for years, or more than the most surface evolution of the people on that journey. The show started out with a clear vision but ended being "stuff that could happen on any show, but befell a ship that just so happened to be in the Delta Quadrant".

After reading her book, "Born with Teeth", I don't believe Kate Mulgrew would approve of such a treatment of a character she co-created. For a trial from her peers to happen, it would be breaking the character down just to rebuild her back up ala Capt. Picard in Tapestry, Family, Lessons, and All Good Things... or Commander Sisko in Emissary, Accession. Character stumbling blocks where after the story our heroes became something new, an enlightenment where our flaws we can learn from and make us better people. Mulgrew takes a lot of pride in this character, almost as a symbol of strength for her but not for me!

Based on her backstory and the THINGS she endured, I have an understanding for what a superwoman such as G.O.A.T. Janeway was for her; woke thoughts I learned was not new but was spoken in small circles for some women who have this inner hatred for men and man culture. I understand her story and I pray I don't ever have the experiences she went through, please God no, but I find a similar instance with actor George Takei when it involves Sulu; he preferred the character being a Captain of a Starship in TUC despite losing a rear opportunity to have a larger, involvement in the story where he, along with his other cast mates, can finally shine. As much as I saw it as a demotion since he's barely in the movie; Takei saw it as reaching the top of Mt. Everest. It was a symbol of an Asian person reaching the heights of Captain Kirk for him, an SF icon.

For Mulgrew, being the 1st of her gender to star in a Star Trek series meant a lot to her and for her she felt it was her duty for young people like me to have someone to look up to. It probably would confuse her to have knowledge that me, AS A WOMAN, I completely loathe her character, but as I read her book the character was a badge of honor and it was her experiences which guided her path to being the great one. When I look back at the opportunities to make that character very interesting, for Mulgrew it would be considered not strong, even when faced with a so-called Commander who was supposed to have more experience than her and was supposed to be a guiding hand to her.

Nope! GOAT Janeway should not take lessons from a man especially a terrorist, altho it was implied an Admiral mentored her in the ep. "Relativity" but it didn't take a milli-second to share she was better than that old man. She's five steps ahead of the guy in every frame which annoyed me bc I felt the scene could have some sense of humanity to it, you know, she's a fine officer but doesn't know everything. These are ticks which pop up in all her run on VOY and I honestly could imagine Mulgrew reading those scripts from Moore where they may had some flaws for her symbol and she would step in and gave the writers a talk or she simply make some notes and ask for the lines to be rewritten because for her that character had to be strong.

There are articles where Robert Beltran talks about Kate Mulgrew, her behavior towards certain cast members who SHE THOUGHT were stepping on her toes or who was... a concern for her baby. Jeri Ryan was a major target for Mulgrew's bullshit. As much as a lot of the things Ronald D. Moore mentioned were spot on and what the series was supposed to be about; there was no way in hell he was going to make that series right as the 800 lbs gorilla Kate Mulgrew was standing in front of him because as her words were and the shit she'd been through she was born... with teeth!

 

[Bornin1980something]

I'm not American, what's a GOAT?

 

[Tosk]

Greatest Of All Time. But I couldn't tell you why they are using it every time they mention her name.

 

[Mogh]

Greatest Of All Time. But I couldn't tell you why they are using it every time they mention her name.

To help distinguish from all the other Janeways.

 

[Bornin1980something]

Greatest Of All Time. But I couldn't tell you why they are using it every time they mention her name.

Like Michael Burnham, then.

 

[Mogh]

Like Michael Burnham, then.

She called Janeway "GOAT" as well?

 

[Bornin1980something]

She called Janeway "GOAT" as well?

No, she's a GOAT.

 

[STEPhon IT]

No, she's a GOAT.

LOL!!!

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

I understand her story and I pray I don't ever have the experiences she went through, please God no, but I find a similar instance with actor George Takei when it involves Sulu; he preferred the character being a Captain of a Starship in TUC despite losing a rear opportunity to have a larger, involvement in the story where he, along with his other cast mates, can finally shine. As much as I saw it as a demotion since he's barely in the movie; Takei saw it as reaching the top of Mt. Everest. It was a symbol of an Asian person reaching the heights of Captain Kirk for him, an SF icon.

As a Asian man, I can appreciate what George Takei did and how him making Captain shows us that Asian Americans can reach for the top and make it.

You only need to look at the world of Tech.

Lisa Su is the CEO of AMD, she's the savior of AMD and righted the ship that was sinking so badly.
Now AMD is kicking the crap out of Intel and taking the #1 position in CPU performance and is getting close to be #1 in GPU peformance. The next generation of GPU's with RDNA3 is aiming for nVIDIA's throat and trying to take the Performance crown.
Little by little, AMD is hacking away at Intel AKA Chipzilla. AMD is coming for Intel's market share and new Intel CEO Pat Gelsinger can't do anything about it other than weather the storm that is brewing. Intel's decade of arrogance gave us consumers Quad-Cores for literally 10 years. That cost Intel in the long run. Slow & steady progress will win the race and TSMC has proven that on the manufacturing side while AMD has upped their CPU design game by learning from the mistakes of the past and starting from ground up. Combined together, AMD + TSMC is a Phoenix reborn from the ashes, ready to battle Chipzilla.

Jensen Huang, as CEO of nVIDIA, he created nVIDIA from scratch and brought us the Graphics Power House that is the 800 lb gorilla in the GPU space. nViDIA doesn't hold a 80% market share in Discrete GPU's without reason. He built a amazingly powerful company, but even then, he's VERY afraid of AMD & Lisa Su's team in the RTG (Radeon Technology Group).

 

[Mogh]

No, she's a GOAT.

A Grotesquely Over-Acted Type? I'll buy that

But then that's one for the Discovery forum!