Stray Beam Weapons fire

[Kamen Rider Blade]

On Earth, in modern times, we have the concept of "Stray Bullets" that occurs when anybody who fires a FireArm and the bullet misses it's intended target and keeps on travelling until it hits something.
That can be very deadly for random people around the area.

What isn't really discussed in Star Trek is what happens in Space Battles when Beam Weapons fires & misses for whatever reason and the Continuous "Laser-like" Beam keeps on traveling in space.

That would be considered "Stray (Particle) Beam Weapons Fire" IMO.
AKA as "Stray Weapons Fire" if you want to be simplistic about it.
If you know a better term, please share it.

Assuming that Civilian Space Travel is fairly common along with FTL (Super Luminal) sensors, wouldn't civilian Space Travel have to deal with "Stray Beam Weapons Fire" if they approach any combat zone.

StarFleet Phasers have a "Effective Tactical Range of ~1 Light-Second ≈ 300,000 km in range.
In 1 Light-Second it's hard to dodge beam weapons fire if you're a large StarShip that has a slow turning rate / slow ability to strafe / jerk / jank randomly in a direction to avoid weapons fire.

Especially since it's stated in the ST:TNG Technical Manual that Phasers function similarly to Lasers in particle emission/projectile speed since they move at the speed of light.
Granted Phaser Fire was never portrayed accurately until ST:Lower Decks & ST:Picard S3.
For that, I'm thankful to the new Trek regime for portraying Phaser Fire accurately in terms of travel speed.

But granted this topic is about "Stray Beam Weapons Fire", so civilians should be seeing Beams that are constantly diverging and growing in "Conical size/Cross Section" & lowering in Energy Density/Intensity per mm² as they travel further away from it's origin point.

Wouldn't a combat zone be pretty deadly within that light-hour range around the area of combat?

I did some rough napkin math based on Red Laser Beam Divergence formulas I got from here.
Assumption 1: Laser Aperture Diameter = 1m w/ Aperture Area of 0.785 m² & Projected Beam Diameter is 1m wide @ 1m distance
Assumption 2: Red Laser WaveLength = 650 nm
Assumption 3: 3.0 E9 Joules = Amount of Energy to "Totally Vaporize a Human Body, including Skeleton (break all atomic bonds)" SRC = Atomic Rockets)

Reference Scale Comparison:
- Dimmest Light Visible to the naked eye in perfect darkness __ ~= 0.1 E-9 ___ (watt/m²)
- 0.005 w Standard Red Laser Pointer that is Regulated by Law ~= 1.69836267 E-9 (watt/m²) <- When Standing on the Moon
- North Star Brightness/Intensity with Urban Light Pollution ___ ~= 4.0 E-9) ____ (watt/m²)
- Full Moons Brightness/Intensity ________________________ ~= 1.0 E-3) ____ (watt/m²)
- Mid-Day's Sun ______________________________________ ~= 1.0 E 3) ___ (watt/m²)

@ 1-Light Second, a initial 1 m² Beam Area would spread to ______1.208 699 23 m² & have the Energy Intensity per unit area reduced to ≈ 64.9459% from it's initial 100% (Power Class = E-1)
@ 2-Light Second, a initial 1 m² Beam Area would spread to ______4.834 796 93 m² & have the Energy Intensity per unit area reduced to ≈ 16.2365% from it's initial 100% (Power Class = E-1)
@ 3-Light Second, a initial 1 m² Beam Area would spread to _____10.878 293 10 m² & have the Energy Intensity per unit area reduced to ≈ _7.2162% from it's initial 100% (Power Class = E-2)
@ 4-Light Second, a initial 1 m² Beam Area would spread to _____19.339 187 72 m² & have the Energy Intensity per unit area reduced to ≈ _4.0591% from it's initial 100% (Power Class = E-2)
@ 5-Light Second, a initial 1 m² Beam Area would spread to _____30.217 480 82 m² & have the Energy Intensity per unit area reduced to ≈ _2.5978% from it's initial 100% (Power Class = E-2)
@ 6-Light Second, a initial 1 m² Beam Area would spread to _____43.513 172 38 m² & have the Energy Intensity per unit area reduced to ≈ _1.8041% from it's initial 100% (Power Class = E-2)
@ 7-Light Second, a initial 1 m² Beam Area would spread to _____59.226 262 41 m² & have the Energy Intensity per unit area reduced to ≈ _1.3254% from it's initial 100% (Power Class = E-2)
@ 8-Light Second, a initial 1 m² Beam Area would spread to _____77.356 750 90 m² & have the Energy Intensity per unit area reduced to ≈ _1.0148% from it's initial 100% (Power Class = E-2)
@ 9-Light Second, a initial 1 m² Beam Area would spread to _____97.904 637 86 m² & have the Energy Intensity per unit area reduced to ≈ _0.8018% from it's initial 100% (Power Class = E-3)
@ 1-Light Minute_, a initial 1 m² Beam Area would spread to ___4351.317 238 20 m² & have the Energy Intensity per unit area reduced to ≈ _0.0180% from it's initial 100% (Power Class = E-4)
@ 1-Light Hour__, a initial 1 m² Beam Area would spread to 3916185.514 382 86 m² & have the Energy Intensity per unit area reduced to ≈ _0.00002% from it's initial 100% (Power Class = E-6)

When you think about it, the danger zone for space battles would be quite a large chunk of space given Beam Divergence for any "Laser-Like" concentrated Particle Beam Weapons of any type.

If your vessel or StarShip had no shields like with what saw recently in ST:LD S5, then it could be grave for them if they get caught in random cross-fire.

It makes you wonder how many Civilian StarShips / Vessels ever got caught in random cross-fire while traveling near or to a Active 'Space Battle'-Zone.

I wonder if you folks have any thoughts.

EDIT #1) I double checked my math, I was a bit off here & there, not enough to affect the end conclusion, but enough that I need to fix the #'s.
I finally had time to toss in the formula into Excel, and double check against other online Calculators for critical components.

 

[HIjol]

Wow!

Having never thought of this aspect of Trek, I do not have many thoughts, but I am always happy to have new things to consider regarding Star Trek!

Wow!

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

All the technical equations are beyond me, but I would suggest phaser fire has a built-in technobabblish "self-destruct" of sorts - it breaks up if it doesn't hit the target within a certain (adjustable) time limit.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

All the technical equations are beyond me, but I would suggest phaser fire has a built-in technobabblish "self-destruct" of sorts - it breaks up if it doesn't hit the target within a certain (adjustable) time limit.

I doubt that would work that way given it's pure Particle Energy of some form and not a Electronic Device.

Torpedoes & Missiles of that sort would definitely have those kinds of things programmed in.

But like a Bullet, pure Particle Beams aren't Electronic Devices that you can program.

So once you send it, especially in the vacuum of space, it just goes until it hits something or spreads out & dissipates enough to where it wouldn't be harmful.

That region could be quite large, but given how vast space is, it shouldn't be a problem if you use common sense and engage your FTL drive to avoid any Combat Zones.

If you need to travel into the Combat Zone for any reason, that could be a issue that the writers deal with since that could be a "Plot Point" from a civilian PoV (Point of View) in their civilian vessel(s).

 

[HIjol]

Guess we have to put out Trust in the Great Bird of the Galaxy to have accounted for The Scatter?

Or;

“Advanced particle beam weapon systems often incorporate safety measures like precise targeting mechanisms, beam deflection systems, and shielding to minimize the risk of stray radiation.“

~~Source: (appropriately?) AI

 

[knightgrace]

Not, quite.

In the January 12th, 2009 issue of 'Aviation Week and Space Technology' magazine there are several articles on a very interesting topic. Actual Phased Array Lasers. Each prototype, individual laser, was based off a glass fiber strand...

Keep in mind that the articles came out in January of that year, meaning that at least two years before the articles were written there was an active classified program. It is now 2025...think about it...deeply think about it.

Several generations of Phased Array Lasers have passed, in that time frame, one way or another. The Chief (?) Researcher, hated/hates Star Trek, but even he, knew that a Phased Array Laser, spelled "Phaser ".

Now about Phased Array Radars.

Don't do that, pay attention!


Face Palming, is appropriate, but not yet.


In a simple early generation Phased Array Radar system you might have 1500, to 4000+ individual Radar Modules. All generating precision timed radio frequency events. Forming an electronic scan. Each individual Radar pulse is correspondingly very weak... In the Original SPY-1 Radar an individual Radar module could, if needed put out a a five megawatt individual beam. Having over 4000 beams, under precise control conditions means something. Really something. Radar updates occurred in the microsecond range...

Meaning "You Lose".

You are detected, and therefore...

As the articles state, the sensor is the weapon, and the weapon is the sensor.

Do, we know that the Phasers on the Enterprise-D, put out 5.1x10^6 megajoules of power. A single UNIT! The main Phaser Strip, has 200 of these units. So , since 14^2 = 196, allowing for spare units, the range isn't one light-second, but 14 light-seconds.


Optical Phased Array systems need higher power computers to fine tune the timing there of.

Much higher than a 1960s computer could support.

Which brings us to computer capabilities.

It is stated in several books that the SPY-1s capabilities are limited by the controlling computer. The original computers, were hardly more powerful than minicomputers. For those too young to know, a minicomputer is defined as a 16 bit word size system.

In credibly weak by today's standards.

So, stray beams? Not unless you want them.

 

[HIjol]

I think we have just identified the next members of Star Fleet Command’s “Stray (Particle) Beam Weapons Fire" Research Team!

Seriously!!!

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

So, stray beams? Not unless you want them.

We're assuming that the enemy is some-what competent and both YourSelf, Allies, & Enemies will both have some form of:
- Active Targeting Sensors
- Targeting Sensor Jammers or just Sensor Jammers
- ECM (Electronic Counter-Measures)
- ECCM (Electronic Counter-CounterMeasures)

So targeting misses might occaisionally happen depending on circumstances.

 

[Ithekro]

Aside from some massive ECM and evasive maneuvers, the only other time I could see a lot of phaser fire being scattered around would be if the starship is actively using the phasers to find a cloaked ship. At which point they would likely be using lower power settings until they find an actual target to hit with the torpedoes and more intense phaser fire.

And then there are the pulse phasers on the Defiant-class. But those probably dissipate in a much shorter distance.

 

[blssdwlf]

In TOS, stray beams is only an issue if you are warping into an active combat zone

We know from TOS that their navigational deflectors and sensors will see anything moving at light speed, especially coming towards them ("The Corbomite Maneuver") so warping into a light speed energy beam really is more of a CHOICE

Same for FTL weapons. From TOS we've seen even the lowly shuttle detect incoming FTL things and take evasive action ("Metamorphosis").

TNG and later sensors seem to have lost the ability to detect anything until the last moment so stray weapon fire is probably a real danger outside of TOS. YMMV

Phasers do lose effectiveness over distance ("The Doomsday Machine") and I would imagine photon torpedoes use up their warhead after a bit of distance and become inert.

 

[Ithekro]

I would image a photon torpedo would using its warhead as fuel until new the end where it might self-destruct to prevent an enemy....or even any culture covered under the prime directive, from gaining access to Federation technology.

 

[blssdwlf]

I would image a photon torpedo would using its warhead as fuel until new the end where it might self-destruct to prevent an enemy....or even any culture covered under the prime directive, from gaining access to Federation technology.

From TNG's "Genesis" a photon torpedo that missed its target had to be instructed to abort and destroy itself. The torpedo further malfunctioned and didn't destroy itself and they had to go look for a few days to retrieve the spent torpedo. So up to that episode it didn't appear that photon torpedoes self-destruct on their own if they missed.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

From TNG's "Genesis" a photon torpedo that missed its target had to be instructed to abort and destroy itself. The torpedo further malfunctioned and didn't destroy itself and they had to go look for a few days to retrieve the spent torpedo. So up to that episode it didn't appear that photon torpedoes self-destruct on their own if they missed.

Then they should probably change it's programming.

 

[knightgrace]

Another thing. The McGraw-Hill Encyclopedia of Science and Technology Year Book, 1983...following...

In the real world, the "no escape zone " is forty to sixty percent of the maximum range of the weapon.


Bad news for players of role playing games...

You have been doing it wrong. The actual geometric shape that is formed, depends upon what each active participant is doing. Chasing? Or trying to escape...

Please remember that an AIM-9(a - k) was a chase device due to the insensitivity of the tracking seeker head. Furthermore, the early Sidewinders, could only pull a twenty-five degree turn. While a F-4 Phantom II(manned) could only pull a maximum of six to seven gs. The F-16 was designed for nine g.

Modern AIM-9s can pull 60g...

 

[HIjol]

Thank you, @Kamen Rider Blade, for this very interesting topic and thread! I never really thought very deeply about weaponry in Star Trek...

I don't have near the technical or mathematical understanding and ability of some of you here, posting, but since I am a visual creature, you got me thinking:

What would it be like if we could actually fire photon torpedos at ships?:

From AI;

"
AI Overview

If you could fire a "photon torpedo" as depicted in Star Trek at a real ship, the result would be catastrophic, essentially vaporizing the ship instantly due to the immense energy released in a concentrated burst of pure light (photons) upon impact; it would be like a miniature star exploding directly against the vessel, leaving nothing but scattered particles behind.

Key points about a photon torpedo's destructive potential:

• Pure Energy:
  Unlike traditional torpedoes that rely on explosive force, a photon torpedo is essentially pure energy, meaning it wouldn't need to penetrate the ship's hull to cause damage; the impact itself would be devastating.
• Extreme Heat and Radiation:
  The concentrated energy of the photon torpedo would generate unimaginable heat upon impact, instantly vaporizing any material it touches, including the ship's hull and contents.
• No Debris Left Behind:
  Due to the complete disintegration of the target, there would likely be very little debris left after a photon torpedo strike, creating a near-instantaneous and visually dramatic destruction.
  

Important Considerations:

• Fictional Technology:
  It's important to remember that photon torpedoes are a fictional concept and currently, there is no known way to generate or direct such a concentrated burst of energy in the real world.
  
  
• Theoretical Physics:
  Even if the technology existed, the immense energy required to create a photon torpedo would likely be beyond our current understanding of physics."
• 
  

Dug a little deeper, generally, and found this very interesting:

"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weapo...nergy output of a,rated yield of 18.5 isotons.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I like to think that stray phaser beams lose power and cohesiveness at a certain range and dissipate until they become nothing. The old TNG Technical Manual implied that standard photon torpedoes are matter/antimatter-powered, and if they don't hit something after three or four million kilometers, they'll automatically self-destruct due to the M/AM containment field eventually losing power.

As already mentioned above in TNG's "Genesis," it was said that Worf had tinkered with the photon torpedoes being tested, and that the "subspace detonator" on the stray torpedo did not engage. Combined with Worf's modifications, maybe that's why that torpedo didn't self-destruct and it had to be recovered perhaps.

 

[blssdwlf]

Then they should probably change it's programming.

Yeah, it was all Worf's fault

What TNG's "Genesis" does show is that photon torpedoes at that time had all the equipment to self-destruct and change mission while in-flight. The question is whether the torpedo would've self-destructed on its own after the miss or does it require instructions to do so from the firing ship since Picard ordered it to abort and self-destruct.

Funny enough, the errant photon torpedo completely misses all of the asteroids in the field that was considered too dense for the Enterprise-D. Given the topic of this thread then the chances of getting hit by a stray torpedo would likely then to be "only by the will of the writer" YMMV.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Another thing. The McGraw-Hill Encyclopedia of Science and Technology Year Book, 1983...following...

In the real world, the "no escape zone " is forty to sixty percent of the maximum range of the weapon.


Bad news for players of role playing games...

You have been doing it wrong. The actual geometric shape that is formed, depends upon what each active participant is doing. Chasing? Or trying to escape...

Please remember that an AIM-9(a - k) was a chase device due to the insensitivity of the tracking seeker head. Furthermore, the early Sidewinders, could only pull a twenty-five degree turn. While a F-4 Phantom II(manned) could only pull a maximum of six to seven gs. The F-16 was designed for nine g.

Modern AIM-9s can pull 60g...

Imagine what future 24th Century Missiles / Torpedoes could do with Inertial Dampeners, Light Shields, & it's own AI when programmed correctly to dodge point defense fire.

 

[HIjol]

SkyNet?

 

[knightgrace]

About the existence/non-existence of Photon Torpedoes...


Bad news.

Very BAD NEWS.


The Safeguard/Sentinel project of the late 1960s - early 1970s, which was a antiballistic missile system had two types of antiballisric missiles.

The Sprint short range antiballistic missile, and the Spartan long range antiballistic missile.

One had a nuclear warhead which "killed " via neutron flux. And the other? X-RAY FLUX!!! In other words a Photon Torpedo...

So, yes, we do have them... Or did.


To show the difference between the two, Star Trek's Photon Torpedo kills by gamma ray flux... as opposed to x-ray flux.

Dead is dead.

By the way, another name for a neutron warhead? NEUTRON BOMB.

Don't think that Star Trek is os fantasy. Well some episodes are. But in its essence, it's not.

You should e, if sane, running away at better than warp factor ten.

It has become apparent to me over the decades that there are people out there far smarter than I, who have been figuring things out.

And taken the next step. Steps.