Stats in games with RPG elements

[Jadzia]

I'm sure readers know what I mean here: Constitution, et al.

I was mulling over this earlier for an idea I had. And to help me develop that idea further, I'd like to hear what your favourite stats systems are, and ask why you like them.

Do you feel that the design of a game's stats system is important in how enjoyable that game is?

Do you like systems with lots of numbers, or just a few? Does complexity offer much freedom for players to customise their characters? Or does complexity obfuscate the basic nature of the game, and detract from your enjoyment of it.

For example, one game may offer a set of primary stats as well as various experiences, esoteric minor stats, skill ratings, and each with base values and stat modifiers . And almost every interaction with the game world could involve a myriad calculations with these figures.

 

[Kelthaz]

When Mario eats a mushroom he gets big. If he gets hit he shrinks. Much more complex than that and you've lost me.

Video games should be about fun and dropping a spreadsheet on the player doesn't make the game more fun. Obviously depending on your game statistics are a necessity, but I recommend you keep them as simple as possible. I would also recommend hiding them from the player when given the opportunity.

 

[Jadzia]

Games like WoW, Runescape, and Rift seem to thrive on being stat heavy.

The most devoted players will pay close attention to these figures and will enjoy honing their character to be as perfect as possible, while playing it in the specific way (niche) they want to play it.

 

[Canadave]

When Mario eats a mushroom he gets big. If he gets hit he shrinks. Much more complex than that and you've lost me.

Video games should be about fun and dropping a spreadsheet on the player doesn't make the game more fun. Obviously depending on your game statistics are a necessity, but I recommend you keep them as simple as possible. I would also recommend hiding them from the player when given the opportunity.

It depends on the game, IMO. In some games I don't want or need a lot of information. In others, I do.

And personally, I'm a fan of the SPECIAL system of character customization from Fallout. You get your basic, nearly unalterable stats, your list of trainable skills, traits to modify your stats, and when you level up, perks to help customize your abilities. It really gives you a lot of options.

 

[Kelthaz]

Games like WoW, Runescape, and Rift seem to thrive on being stat heavy.

The most devoted players will pay close attention to these figures and will enjoy honing their character to be as perfect as possible, while playing it in the specific way (niche) they want to play it.

Statistics play a huge role in MMORPGs no doubt, but I'm not a fan of that genre. I'm primarily an action gamer and I find when action games get infused with RPG elements they dilute the gameplay with needless complexity at best and grinding at worst. I understand the need for statistics in the RPG and 4X genres, but I prefer to see statistics and leveling up kept out of action games. That goes for Action RPGs too -- I prefer the Zelda or Soul Blazer approach to statistics in that genre.

 

[Servo]

I think games should have as many statistics as possible available to the player, so that if you want to look at them you have the option to, but if you don't you can just ignore them.

One of the things I love about CoD: Black Ops is the vast amount of player statistics you have access to. I love having the ability to look at my career stats, such as weapon accuracy, K/D ratios (overall, and with individual weapons), shots fired, hit location maps...etc.

The thing that annoyed me about Modern Warfare 2 was the fact that it only gave you basic statistics and didn't offer a huge amount of career details. It's not a dealbreaker as far as buying the game is concerned, but it's nice to be able to view a breakdown of your career, and see exactly what you've done with the time you've invested in the game.

 

[Jadzia]

Statistics play a huge role in MMORPGs no doubt, but I'm not a fan of that genre. I'm primarily an action gamer

I like Arcade games most (that is relatively short games which you can improve upon with knowledge, practice, and better reflexes).

The way that arcade games add RPG elements is with upgrades. One of the best examples is Slap Fight, an overhead vertical scrolling SEU. Here you collected stars from things you destroyed, and you could spend them on upgraded weapons, higher speed, or shields for your ship. There are no statistics in sight.

Another example is Super Sprint, that had wrenches appearing on the track which you could collect. You could spend these on upgrades to your car, such as speed, acceleration, or better traction that enabled you to turn at higher speed without skidding. No statistics in sight here either.

I find when action games get infused with RPG elements they dilute the gameplay with needless complexity at best and grinding at worst.

I somewhat agree. Grinding is what happens if the stats system is poorly designed, but it can also happen if game content has been neglected, or if the game needs so much filler to justify it's price tag.

In my two above examples of arcade games, players will stack their upgrades, and will end up with most of them later in the end. ie, there are various upgrade routes one can take, but the destination is always the same.

But what stats systems can provide is depth of choice and commitment to a specific upgrade path. eg, your death knight can stack +STR gear, or stack +INT gear. If you choose one you'll sacrifice the other. You can't have the best of both.

 

[clint g]

To this day my favorite stat system was that in deus ex. It actually felt as if your stats ment something in that game

 

[Jadzia]

The thing that annoyed me about Modern Warfare 2 was the fact that it only gave you basic statistics and didn't offer a huge amount of career details.

I think that kind of data is useful to determine your own strengths and weaknesses as a player (as opposed to the strengths and weakness of your character).

In Starcraft 2, players like to know each others win:loss ratio, because it's useful to quickly weigh up how skilled a player is.

eg, a player with 63:42 would be one who is well ahead of the curve, and has enough games under their belt to suggest it is because of skill rather than luck.

So earlier this year when Blizzard decided to remove this ratio and allow players to see the "wins" figure only, it caused quite a ruckus among the community. Blizzard may or may not revert their decision in the future. Players like statistics.

 

[Jadzia]

The idea I was talking about at the beginning of the thread was a system of my own design, that I may choose to incorporate into a game in the future.

 

[gh4chiefs]

When Mario eats a mushroom he gets big. If he gets hit he shrinks. Much more complex than that and you've lost me..

Awesome line man.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

When Mario eats a mushroom he gets big. If he gets hit he shrinks. Much more complex than that and you've lost me.

Video games should be about fun and dropping a spreadsheet on the player doesn't make the game more fun. Obviously depending on your game statistics are a necessity, but I recommend you keep them as simple as possible. I would also recommend hiding them from the player when given the opportunity.

It depends on the game, IMO. In some games I don't want or need a lot of information. In others, I do.

And personally, I'm a fan of the SPECIAL system of character customization from Fallout. You get your basic, nearly unalterable stats, your list of trainable skills, traits to modify your stats, and when you level up, perks to help customize your abilities. It really gives you a lot of options.

SPECIAL is heavily inspired by (or lifted from, depending on your POV) GURPS, which Jadzia might want to take a look at.

 

[Canadave]

^ Interesting, I didn't know that. RPGs aren't my favourite genre, so my knowledge of them is only on the broadest level.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

No worries, I don't think most people know about the SPECIAL/GURPS connection.

As for RPG systems in general, I like the basic approach most games take, including the approach Jadzia has here: a small set of primary stats, a more expansive set of ability/skill stats, and then some boolean "traits" to individualize the character.

That said, I also like the Elder Scrolls system, where you have major/minor stats, and all of which increase by being used in the game. In fact, I think that's a better approach than the straight-up classing D&D-style systems use. Rather than pigeonhole yourself into a specific role, why not let you shape your role by having stats which increase from use (or even decrease from disuse)? The only downside to that I can see would be grinding. It should take some work to raise a stat but not so much that you spend the whole game stat-building rather than enjoying yourself.

 

[Jadzia]

That said, I also like the Elder Scrolls system, where you have major/minor stats, and all of which increase by being used in the game. In fact, I think that's a better approach than the straight-up classing D&D-style systems use. Rather than pigeonhole yourself into a specific role, why not let you shape your role by having stats which increase from use (or even decrease from disuse)? The only downside to that I can see would be grinding. It should take some work to raise a stat but not so much that you spend the whole game stat-building rather than enjoying yourself.

I know it's not evident from the labels, but the system I have above doesn't pigeonhole. I've designed it to allow characters to multi-class, or it can be forced to solo-class, by limiting the growth of the combat skills.

The combat skills increase with use, and a character's overall experience level is determined by the largest of these skills.

The sheet shows typical data for a level 1 mage, incase you hadn't guessed.

 

[Kelthaz]

Hey, I remember playing Super Sprint. Well that brings back some nice nostalgic memories. I wonder if it would run on Windows 7 ...

Anyway, the problem I have with RPG elements and character progression is that I find those elements to be a replacement for skill and strategy. There is of course overlap between skill and RPG elements, but when you add to one you have to take away from the other. I don't think I've ever seen a game with RPG elements that wasn't detrimental to the overall skill requirements.

[QUOTE="Method 1 - RPG Elements]
I'm on the final level and it's so cool to be slaughtering those minions from the first few levels with my suped up character and Sword of Infinite Killing + 5. Even those near-fatal projectiles only do a single point of damage at Level 54 while wearing my Armour of Invincibility + 10.
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE="Method 2 - Skill]
I'm on the final level and it's so cool be slaughtering those minions from the first few levels with my skill and experience with the game. Even those near-fatal projectiles aren't a threat because I've advanced enough as a player to be able to dodge them reliably.
[/QUOTE]

Of course it depends on what you're looking for in a game and how interested you are in a challenge, but for me leveling up, equipment, money, inventories, and crafting does nothing but hurt the quality of the game. I can and have enjoyed video games with RPG elements (aka. Super Sprint, Zelda, Soul Blazer, etc.), but never as much as games without them. It's the reason I love the old school Castlevania games, but find the Symphony of the Night style, including Symphony of the Night, to be near unplayable.

 

[Jadzia]

[QUOTE="Method 1 - RPG Elements]
I'm on the final level and it's so cool to be slaughtering those minions from the first few levels with my suped up character and Sword of Infinite Killing + 5. Even those near-fatal projectiles only do a single point of damage at Level 54 while wearing my Armour of Invincibility + 10.
[/QUOTE]

With RPG elements I think the game shouldn't become easier towards the end. It should be such that the game remains essentially the same, just that all numbers are 10 times bigger at the end than they were at the beginning.

What RPG does then, is enable you to get a series of small gains along the way: a better weapon that puts you ahead of the curve, and you can notice the difference, but as you progress it gradually falls behind the curve. Then you find some better armor, and you notice the difference in how it absorbs damage, and you feel you are ahead of the curve again. That pattern creates small fluctuations in difficulty and in how the game feels, which forces you to constantly adapt, and these upgrades provide a steady supply small 'feel good' rewards.

But I think if anything, the RPG game should become harder towards the end, so that it stretches your skill. eg, your DPS has increased factor 10, but enemy DPS has increased factor 20. The challenge level then increases, and when you win you can say "Even those near-fatal projectiles aren't a threat because I've advanced enough as a player to be able to dodge them reliably".

 

[Capt. Vulcan]

I love stats in games, and will take them in almost any genre. Even in sports games the only modes I play are the ones where you can make players and earn stats for them like in an RPG. The only time I don't like them is when they're there with no purpose. It annoys me when it turns out there's no reason to raise any other stat than Strength and Constitution, or the game only places a few reasons to raise luck or what have you. I also prefer there to be choices for abilities or perks along the way that limit you from getting other abilities because I also don't like it when there's only one real end-game for the characters to proceed. Like by the end every single player will end up with the same exact character because all the maxed out characters are the same. Even with races, classes and sub classes, if every elf druid blood archer is the same exactly elf druid blood archer or whatever, that gets boring for me.

 

[Canadave]

But I think if anything, the RPG game should become harder towards the end, so that it stretches your skill. eg, your DPS has increased factor 10, but enemy DPS has increased factor 20. The challenge level then increases, and when you win you can say "Even those near-fatal projectiles aren't a threat because I've advanced enough as a player to be able to dodge them reliably".

Personally, I'm not so sure about that, myself. I like being at the end of an RPG and feeling as if my hard work has paid off—I'm badass now, and the enemy is going to have to throw something damn good in my direction to defeat me. YMMV, of course.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

But I think if anything, the RPG game should become harder towards the end, so that it stretches your skill. eg, your DPS has increased factor 10, but enemy DPS has increased factor 20. The challenge level then increases, and when you win you can say "Even those near-fatal projectiles aren't a threat because I've advanced enough as a player to be able to dodge them reliably".

Personally, I'm not so sure about that, myself. I like being at the end of an RPG and feeling as if my hard work has paid off—I'm badass now, and the enemy is going to have to throw something damn good in my direction to defeat me. YMMV, of course.

I think what makes the biggest difference is whether and how much control you have over the evolution of your stats. If it's just straight-up grinding to level up and increase stats across the board, that's a bit boring. Systems that allow you to specialize and develop certain traits at the expense of others let you individualize your character(s) and provide more gameplay variety.