Starship Museums: why?

[Admiral Jean-Luc Picard]

Assumption.

No, that's what reverse engineering is. Do you really think Starfleet would not have stripped that thing down? Klingons were not friends of the UFP when the BOP went down in SF bay.

A sign that the Accords are still in place. It's Kronos One after all.

Why would the Klingons give Kronos One to a Starfleet museum? This makes no sense to me.

And then the Dominion War ended. Priorities shift.

Think of all the losses during the Cardassian war, 2 Borg invasions, Klingon war, and Dominion-Cardassian-Breen war, all because Starfleet "doesn't believe in warships." If anything, the shift in priorities would be TO warships, NOT away from them. Maybe not warships, but at the very least, dedicated peacekeeping battleships. If the Defiant-A is considered old, why not park it over Bajor or just give it to the Bajorans as a patrol ship?

Subjective. Doesn't mean it doesn't explain it.

It's still dumb.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I saw it and thought it was dumb.

Show us on the doll where the tow truck driver hurt you.

 

[fireproof78]

No, that's what reverse engineering is. Do you really think Starfleet would not have stripped that thing down? Klingons were not friends of the UFP when the BOP went down in SF bay.

Um, pretty sure you can put things back together. And it's still an assumption that a) this is the first BOP Starfleet or the Federation have acquired, which seems like a stretch given the active counterintelligence efforts and b) that they needed to strip it for parts.

Why would the Klingons give Kronos One to a Starfleet museum? This makes no sense to me.

It's historically significant. It took Gorkon making this overture. Kronos One in a Starfleet Museum makes perfect sense because it was a watershed moment between the two powers, a peace brokered by Starfleet officers.

Think of all the losses during the Cardassian war, 2 Borg invasions, Klingon war, and Dominion-Cardassian-Breen war, all because Starfleet "doesn't believe in warships." If anything, the shift in priorities would be TO warships, NOT away from them. Maybe not warships, but at the very least, dedicated peacekeeping battleships. If the Defiant-A is considered old, why not park it over Bajor or just give it to the Bajorans as a patrol ship?

That's not the Starfleet way, as demonstrated again and again and again within the shows themselves. People can say its dumb all the they want but the Dominion Wars was extremely unpopular among Starfleet brass and leadership. Moving away from a Dominion War footing makes perfect sense from a morale, and policy standpoint. Retiring the Defiant is both acknowledging its significance and demonstrating a step away from a war hawk footing.

It's still dumb.

Doesn't change anything. If Starfleet decided to salvage it more power to them.

 

[Admiral Jean-Luc Picard]

Show us on the doll where the tow truck driver hurt you.

You can't just move the crashed Ent-D like a car stuck in a ditch.

 

[Admiral Jean-Luc Picard]

Um, pretty sure you can put things back together. And it's still an assumption that a) this is the first BOP Starfleet or the Federation have acquired, which seems like a stretch given the active counterintelligence efforts and b) that they needed to strip it for parts.

It's the first BOP on screen and given how much the crew struggled to learn how to fly the ship, I think it's reasonable that it's the first Klingon BOP acquired by Starfleet. Regarding reverse engineering, that's not something you do on Vulcan when you're aiming to fly back to Earth in a few months. Once back on Earth, it's absolutely something Starfleet would do. Take that sucker apart, learn everything they can.

It's historically significant. It took Gorkon making this overture. Kronos One in a Starfleet Museum makes perfect sense because it was a watershed moment between the two powers, a peace brokered by Starfleet officers.

If it's so important, why is it not a Klingon museum?

That's not the Starfleet way, as demonstrated again and again and again within the shows themselves. People can say its dumb all the they want but the Dominion Wars was extremely unpopular among Starfleet brass and leadership. Moving away from a Dominion War footing makes perfect sense from a morale, and policy standpoint. Retiring the Defiant is both acknowledging its significance and demonstrating a step away from a war hawk footing.

Everything in the TNG movies, DS9, and VOY says it IS the Starfleet way. Pulling a 180 in PIC S3 is just bad writing and going backwards narratively.

Doesn't change anything. If Starfleet decided to salvage it more power to them.

It's bad writing. It reduces the Enterprise-D saucer to a cheap special effect. That thing should be so badly trashed, that "if" they could tractor it back to space, it should have gone to one of those junk yards in space that we saw in a few TNG episodes. When I saw the end of PIC 3-9 "Vox," I was just embarrassed. I did enjoy the finale, though.

 

[Morpheus 02]

For the Klingon cruiser (i.e. NOT the Bounty), wouldn't that one posisbly be the one where the crew was in suspended animation for years , and Worf assumed command, with Klingon gear, to help that cruiser NOT start a war? THAT ship is about 100 years old or so...and i don't think Klingons are really sentimental about the actual ship...just the stories about it. A worn out ship is like a dead body -- just an empty shell. The "soul" of the ship would be in glorious stories about it. (The episode being the what, season 1 episode with K'Elehr)

And the Bounty -- was there really much about it, other than the cloaking device, that would be THAT much of mystery? Wouldn't it be basic Klingon tech? WHich they might have already scavenged from the Klingon War? It's not like the Klingon cruisers were any kind of innovation like the TNG Romulan Warbirds were.

 

[fireproof78]

It's the first BOP on screen and given how much the crew struggled to learn how to fly the ship, I think it's reasonable that it's the first Klingon BOP acquired by Starfleet. Regarding reverse engineering, that's not something you do on Vulcan when you're aiming to fly back to Earth in a few months. Once back on Earth, it's absolutely something Starfleet would do. Take that sucker apart, learn everything they can.

I disagree on all counts. Vulcans have their own intelligence apparatus so they can easily do it there.

If it's so important, why is it not a Klingon museum?

Because it's not just important to the Klingons.

Everything in the TNG movies, DS9, and VOY says it IS the Starfleet way. Pulling a 180 in PIC S3 is just bad writing and going backwards narratively.

And in Picard they say "Starfleet lost their way." In DS9 the war is considered completely out of step for them. Changing and going back to the explorer mentality is marked off in Insurrection, and in Picard Season 3 so regardless of the narrative, this is the Starfleet way to move away from the war footing. We don't have to agree but it makes sense from a Starfleet point of view based on what's shown.

It's bad writing. It reduces the Enterprise-D saucer to a cheap special effect. That thing should be so badly trashed, that "if" they could tractor it back to space, it should have gone to one of those junk yards in space that we saw in a few TNG episodes. When I saw the end of PIC 3-9 "Vox," I was just embarrassed. I did enjoy the finale, though.

Interesting emotional reaction. Embarrassed for whom?

And the D crash was a cheap special effect. It was treated as a laugh with Data's "Oh shit," comment. It was a punch line for Troi's bad driving for years in many fan circles. Not sure how it cheapens it, when it wasn't as dramatically significant as it could be.

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

I'm not sure what the problem with the Klingon Bird-of-Prey is. They said in Voyage Home that Starfleet was going to study the thing and find out its secrets when they got it back to Earth. Then they probably did. Then they put it in a museum.

And it never occurred to me that Starfleet wouldn't move the saucer. They can't just leave one of their most advanced ships lying there for the Romulans or Klingons to get their hands on.

 

[Admiral Jean-Luc Picard]

For the Klingon cruiser (i.e. NOT the Bounty), wouldn't that one posisbly be the one where the crew was in suspended animation for years , and Worf assumed command, with Klingon gear, to help that cruiser NOT start a war? THAT ship is about 100 years old or so...and i don't think Klingons are really sentimental about the actual ship...just the stories about it. A worn out ship is like a dead body -- just an empty shell. The "soul" of the ship would be in glorious stories about it. (The episode being the what, season 1 episode with K'Elehr)

I don't imagine the Klingons are the types to just give away all of their secrets to the Federation! They'd blow it up first. Same reason why Kirk self-destructed the Enterprise in ST-III.

And the Bounty -- was there really much about it, other than the cloaking device, that would be THAT much of mystery? Wouldn't it be basic Klingon tech? WHich they might have already scavenged from the Klingon War? It's not like the Klingon cruisers were any kind of innovation like the TNG Romulan Warbirds were.

It's a fully working and intact Klingon BOP, flooded with some structural damage from hitting the water pretty hard, some trashed computers from the whale probe, but that's about it. At that point, just strip it apart and reverse engineer.

 

[Admiral Jean-Luc Picard]

I disagree on all counts. Vulcans have their own intelligence apparatus so they can easily do it there.

Speculation. We've never seen anything on screen to indicate the Vulcans have such advantaged reverse engineering capabilities.

Because it's not just important to the Klingons.

Fair enough, but they're also not going to just fork over secret Klingon technology to the Federation, someone they've bene on again, off again enemies with and might be enemies with in the future.

And in Picard they say "Starfleet lost their way." In DS9 the war is considered completely out of step for them. Changing and going back to the explorer mentality is marked off in Insurrection, and in Picard Season 3 so regardless of the narrative, this is the Starfleet way to move away from the war footing. We don't have to agree but it makes sense from a Starfleet point of view based on what's shown.

How is it "completely out of step" for the Federation to defend itself from the Dominion? You keep dodging that Starfleet had what, 3 wars in a row plus 2 Borg invasions.

Interesting emotional reaction. Embarrassed for whom?

It's not a "for" emotion. I just sat there thinking, "This is so stupid, they reduced the Ent-D to cheap CGI."

And the D crash was a cheap special effect. It was treated as a laugh with Data's "Oh shit," comment. It was a punch line for Troi's bad driving for years in many fan circles. Not sure how it cheapens it, when it wasn't as dramatically significant as it could be.

No, the Ent-D crash was actually very expensive to poducer and a major plot point of the film. Data's "Oh Shit" moment his hilarious, because he said out loud what everyone was thinking, and he's the ONE character you expect NOT to say that. It's funny, and it's good funny. The theater was roaring in laughter when I saw it back in '94. In GEN, Troi didn't crash the ship, "Helm controls are off line!" She was just along for the ride at that point. In NEM, she was following Picard's orders, the crash was on purpose. I do get the joke, though. She drive two Enterprises once each and crashed both. It was fun to see her take the helm a third time and not crash. hah

 

[HotRod]

#4 Very carefully doesn't explain how it was retrieved.

 

[Admiral Jean-Luc Picard]

You're missing the point. It's bad writing. The Ent-D literally is only in the show, because... MEMBERBERRIES!!!!!

 

[HotRod]

You're missing the point. It's bad writing. The Ent-D literally is only in the show, because... MEMBERBERRIES!!!!!

I don't disagree, but you're questioning how it was salvaged. Not everything needs to be seen or explained. Maybe they trust their audience just enough for us to accept that in the 24th century, they can get a crashed saucer off the surface of a planet.

Hell, we've seen that even in the 23rd Century, a single Constitution class can lift an entire crashed ship of comparable size off the surface of a planet.

I can't imagine it was that difficult to get the Enterprise-D saucer off the planet.

 

[Admiral Jean-Luc Picard]

I don't disagree, but you're questioning how it was salvaged. Not everything needs to be seen or explained.

I honestly don't care how it was salvaged. My gripe is that it just should not have been possible. If it's a Prime Directive thing, fire some photons and call it a day. I get why Braga wanted to get away from the 24th century, citing it was getting too magical.

Maybe they trust their audience just enough for us to accept that in the 24th century, they can get a crashed saucer off the surface of a planet.

Perhaps, but for me, it just has me rolling my eyes. If something that extreme is going to happen, throw in some dialogue. I'd have been happy if Geordi said something like, "Surprisingly, the saucer was structurally intact, though it was a pain in the ass to get it back into space." With writing, I have high standards. I don't like TV shows having big reveals with no explanations.

Hell, we've seen that even in the 23rd Century, a single Constitution class can lift an entire crashed ship of comparable size off the surface of a planet.

When did this ever happen?

I can't imagine it was that difficult to get the Enterprise-D saucer off the planet.

It's not a question about difficult. It's a question of "why" do that to begin with. I'm looking at this from a real-world writing POV. I'd have been happier if the last two episodes simply focused on taking back control of the Titan-A and using that ship to confront the Borg cube.

 

[fireproof78]

Speculation. We've never seen anything on screen to indicate the Vulcans have such advantaged reverse engineering capabilities.

Same as the speculation as this being the first Bird of Prey Starfleet or the Federation has ever had access to. The simple truth is we don't know. We assume. That's it.

Fair enough, but they're also not going to just fork over secret Klingon technology to the Federation, someone they've bene on again, off again enemies with and might be enemies with in the future.

What secret technology in a ship 100 years old?

How is it "completely out of step" for the Federation to defend itself from the Dominion? You keep dodging that Starfleet had what, 3 wars in a row plus 2 Borg invasions.

I don't dodge anything. I am noting what is said in the shows. No matter what you or I might think they explicitly say "Starfleet doesn't build warships."

Period. That's not a discussion point. So, retiring the Defiant, regardless of a defensive position, makes sense from a PR position and from a public perception position. They have to regain some sense of their identity based on what they value.

It's not a "for" emotion. I just sat there thinking, "This is so stupid, they reduced the Ent-D to cheap CGI."

And that's embarrassing? Seeking clarification.

No, the Ent-D crash was actually very expensive to poducer and a major plot point of the film. Data's "Oh Shit" moment his hilarious, because he said out loud what everyone was thinking, and he's the ONE character you expect NOT to say that. It's funny, and it's good funny. The theater was roaring in laughter when I saw it back in '94. In GEN, Troi didn't crash the ship, "Helm controls are off line!" She was just along for the ride at that point.

It might have been expensive to produce but it didn't feel that way in the film. And again, I'm not saying Troi crashed the ship but that became an Internet meme and unfortunately Generations and Nemesis fed in to that.

The crash simply didn't work for me because a lot of that final battle was not well orchestrated. So, to me, while I have no love for the Enterprise D it being salvaged doesn't bother me.

 

[HotRod]

My gripe is that it just should not have been possible.

Why?

If it's a Prime Directive thing

It was.

fire some photons and call it a day.

Leaving behind lots of evidence.

I don't like TV shows having big reveals with no explanations.

It had an explanation.

When did this ever happen?

Strange New Worlds.

 

[BillJ]

#1 Scanning is not the same thing as reverse engineering. Scanners are not magical all-knowing and all-powerful devices. They have limitations.
#2 I call BS, Klingons aren't going to just fork over one of their ships like this.
#3 Incompetence. After the Cardassian War, 2 Borg invasions, the Klingon war, and the war with the Dominion, Cardassians, and Breen... Starfleet would have to be mentally handicapped to not have retire their warships.
#4 Very carefully doesn't explain how it was retrieved.

Let's all say it together... Science Fiction...

These shows are not a real-life treatise on the military, espionage, technology, or anything else. They are make believe.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I find it hard to believe the one from SFS is the first BOP the Federation has "acquired". It is however one of historical significance. So I can see it in a museum.

 

[BillJ]

It is however one of historical significance. So I can see it in a museum.

Yeah, likely the only one to visit San Francisco, in 1986.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Yeah, likely the only one to visit San Francisco, in 1986.

I can neither confirm or deny.