I mean, if you say that then Amanda is equally racist when she discusses Spock's human side.
Spoilers Star Trek: Strange New Worlds 2x01 - "The Broken Circle"
- Thread starter Commander Richard
- Start date
Kind of. Yeah. To make it more impactful, let's take a real world example and see how it sounds.
There is a mixed-race black and white person.
This person generally identifies as black.
Other people around him... fairly consistently... keep trying to get him to be more white.
Sounds... kinda racist to me?
I mean, I've seen it on both sides, with people distressed over discovering they had a white ancestor too.
The difference is, Chapel is aware Spock actually has feelings for him. Amanda knows that Spock has those emotions. They are just trying their way to feel that connection.
Maybe it's racist but to me it's also trying to acknowledge a reality that they know to exist.
It goes beyond just Spock to the treatment of Vulcans in general throughout Trek, including modern Trek.
My only REAL criticism of Spock's exploration of his human side is that this feels like the wrong time in his story to be doing this. This probably should have been about a decade prior. We're only a few years away from the TOS stories, and even if they look completely different now, the stories themselves are supposed to be have occurred.
Spock goes from fairly openly toying with human emotions to be outright disdainful of them in about 5 years. Not impossible... but i'm hoping SNW shows WHY Spock pulls such a 180. I... have a feeling it's due to Chapel. I think the seeds were planted for it in the musical episode, but to be honest I was mostly trying to skip through it so it would end.
Not impossible at all. I'm disdainful of myself for choices made 5 years ago.
Why should Spock be different? He is shown, clearly, in the Cage, as having emotions, of being more exuberant, and expressive. The comics had one explanation, which was suitably fascinating, but your speculation Chapel is equally possible.
I don't see this as the "wrong time." I feel it works quite well in this time that we know little about Spock, but just assume he's always been Spockish (my new username?).
Well, all aliens get treated as stereotypes. I think Tuvok and Sarek did the best of breaking those stereotypes, with Tuvok even taking time to share with an alien why he couldn't reciprocate his emotions, but it was through a mind meld, so we, the audience, can only guess what was shared.
Vs. Spock who is half human, as told to us again and again in TOS. This is not some mystery that Amanda might ask him about, nor is his feelings towards Chapel something out of left field. It's there. So, SNW is doing what prequels do best and give us insight in to it.
Taken as a reboot is fine, but ultimate, will serve as a lessening of what is intended.
I think something to bear in mind is that while there are analogies to real-world racism, Spock's situation is fundamentally different: He is biologically a hybrid rather than just being part of one species. And it is biologically unhealthy for Humans to suppress their emotions; that means that it's really not clear if Spock's choice to embrace Vulcan culture over Human culture is actually, biologically, healthy for him. Obviously that kind of scenario just does not apply to real life, where people can be descended from multiple cultures and practice elements of multiple cultures without it being biologically unhealthy to them.
There is a big difference between making an active choice to psychologically harm yourself and having a medical condition that you did not choose.
Many would argue there is very much a choice in becoming obese... myself included... from experience. I was obese. Why? Because I liked food, and I didn't like exercise. There was no medical condition. I chose to be that way. And then... I chose not to be that way. It's not easy... but at the end of the day, for the vast majority, it is very much a choice.
It doesn't make it ok to shame people for it.
Medical research indicates that for the majority of obese people, it is not a choice.
I mean, the best way to think about it is that the deck is stacked against some people. Most of those who are physically fit/slim aren't so because of choice, but because they aren't as interested in food, they enjoy exercise, they have a higher resting metabolism, or some mixture of all three.
While it may technically be possible for some obese people to restructure their whole lives in order to both lose weight and keep it off for good, it requires a lifelong commitment and a ton of work, which just isn't what those without the propensity have to deal with.
I don't think anyone is shaming Spock at all, so this analogy feels flawed on its face.
Spock has both sides, and he struggles with them. How that plays out in his day to day is a great source of drama, and he dishes out to McCoy as much as McCoy dishes it to him. I don't think Amanda or Chapel are out of line to figure out were those emotions lie.
I was generally referring to the treatment of Vulcans in general.
I actually DON'T think the Spock/McCoy stuff is actually bad, specifically for the reason you said. Spock also dishes it out. I can identify with that, I grew up in a time where people did that all the time... I still do that with friends.
Well, that unfortunately happens with Klingons as well, and Ferengi. Even Sisko is awful about it. And Voyager did it the worst.
But, I was more referring to Spock, and his unique relationships with his mom and Chapel.
In the grand scheme, it's really made me think that people like T'Kuvma aren't actually wrong about the Federation...
The Federation... humans... are conquerors. Humans just do it more subtle, not conquering people with arms, but by dominating their culture and colonizing everyone. Humans aren't even doing on purpose or maliciously but, it happens, and its insidious.
That's not exactly a new idea, though. Both Eddington and Kerla in TUC share a similar view.
But, I don't think either are trying to force being human, but trying to get both sides of Spock's view, his unique nature.
I think it is fair to say that the Federation has certain values it is hoping to peacefully persuade all cultures to adopt, and that it hopes that all cultures will consent to joining the Federation.
I also think it's fair to say that that critique, while valid, does not justify the violent retaliation or ideology of Klingon supremacy that T'Kuvma advocated.
I also think it's fair to say that that critique, while valid, does not justify the violent retaliation or ideology of Klingon supremacy that T'Kuvma advocated.
Violence is usually not the answer.
But I would amend that slightly to say "The Federation" has values it's hoping to persuade cultures to adopt... really meaning humans have values they are trying to persuade cultures to adopt. The Klingons saw it... Azetbur criticizes the Federation as a "homo sapiens only club".
It's very rarely addressed directly, but humans absolutely dominate the Federation and almost universally when there is criticism of "The Federation", it's actually criticism of humans. We even see the human cultural colonialism with other Federation members... there's numerous examples of humans pushing human-centric things onto aliens, again usually in the form of harassing Vulcans.
Going back to the T'Kuvma thing for a moment, there is a much deeper discussion. I agree, violence is bad. But what if a people see no other alternative? When DOES violence become acceptable to combat colonization? I ask this without having an answer myself. I do wish that Discovery had delved deeper into this question, rather than T'Kuvma moreso ending up a generic wanna-be tyrant.
We see it with Bajor as well... less so the Federation actively doing much on Bajor (on DS9... yes), but more so Bajor's perspective on it. It's clear early on that many Bajorans see the Federation as just another occupying force.
And then you have Quark's root beer speech, which is one of my favorite lines in all of Star Trek.
Interesting, what you see as humancentric one can argue are really WesternEuropean or NorthAmericancentric values. Understandable since its a US TV show and can only reflect the cultural values of its producers. However the idea that in the future humanity becomes this idealised version of US society might be considered arrogantly racist.
The idea of exploration, the final frontier is an idealised version of the exploration and frontier pioneer attitude that shaped the Americas, which was anything but ideal for the populations already living there.