ST Chronology Idea - Kirk, Command School, Carol & David Marcus

[JonnyQuest037]

(Mods: I posted this in General Trek Discussion, as it incorporates stuff from both TOS and the movies. If you feel that it's more appropriate somewhere else, feel free to move it.)

So last night I was working on my TOS chronology a bit, trying to nail down big events in the lives of Kirk and his crew, keeping their career trajectory as plausible as possible, and I got an idea that's a bit different from the established TOS chronology, but I think still fits with the established facts. I'd love to hear people's feedback on it. Here's what I came up with (You may notice that some of the years given below don't jibe with the Okuda Chronology. This is intentional and I can explain my reasoning if you're curious. For instance, I have Kirk being born in 2234, not 2233):

2254 - James T. Kirk (age 20) graduates from Starfleet Academy.

2254 - Ensign Kirk begins serving on the USS Republic, NCC-1371, under Captain Garrovick.

2254 - Onboard the USS Republic, Ensign James T. Kirk logs that his friend Ben Finney left a circuit open that could have led to the destruction of the ship. Finney draws a reprimand and is moved to the bottom of the promotion list.

2255 - Ensign James T. Kirk transfers to the USS Farragut, NCC-1647, alongside Captain Garrovick. It is Kirk's first deep-space assignment.

2255 - Lt. J.G. James T. Kirk commands his first planetary survey on the planet Neural, a technologically unsophisticated Class-M planet.

2257 - James T. Kirk (age 23) is promoted to full Lieutenant.

2257 - Half the crew of the USS Farragut is annihilated by a mysterious cloud creature while exploring planet Tycho IV. Lt. James T. Kirk, manning phaser control, blames himself for not firing on the creature sooner.

2257 - Lt. James T. Kirk is accepted into Starfleet Command School, also teaching courses to midshipmen.

2257 - Gary Mitchell aims a “little blonde lab technician” at Jim Kirk, in the hopes of getting his friend to loosen up. Kirk and Carol Marcus soon fall in love and begin a romantic relationship that lasts for the next several years.

March-April 2258 - Lt. James T. Kirk makes three attempts to successfully complete the Kobayashi Maru scenario at Starfleet Command School. He is finally beats the test when he reprograms the simulation to make it possible to rescue the ship. He is awarded a commendation for original thinking.

2258 - James T. Kirk graduates from Starfleet Command School.

2259 - James T. Kirk (age 25) is promoted to Lieutenant Commander.

Dec. 31, 2259 - James Kirk proposes to Carol Marcus on New Year’s Eve.

Early 2260 - James Kirk and Carol Marcus make plans to get married.

April 2260 - Carol Marcus calls off her engagement to Jim Kirk when she discovers that she is pregnant.

September 3, 2260 - David Marcus is born to Carol Marcus. He is the son of James T. Kirk, although his father will not learn of his existence for some time.

2261 - Lt. Commander James T. Kirk (age 27) begins serving as first officer on the USS El Dorado, NCC-1722.

2262 - James T. Kirk has a romantic relationship with the future Janet Wallace.

2262 - James T. Kirk (age 28) is promoted to Commander.

2263 - James T. Kirk has a romantic relationship with Starfleet attorney Areel Shaw.

2263 - Commander James T. Kirk (age 29) assumes command of the USS Saladin, NCC-500.

2265 - James T. Kirk (age 31) is promoted to Captain and assumes command of the USS Enterprise.

2265-2270 - The five-year mission seen on TOS.

c. 2270 - Kirk discovers that he has a son. despite his desire to be involved with the boy's upbringing, he agrees to respect Carol's wishes and stay away.

2273 - The newly-refit USS Enterprise is prematurely pressed into service against V'Ger.

2273-2278 - The reunited crew of the USS Enterprise embarks on another five-year mission of exploration.

c. 2278 - Admiral Kirk becomes Commandant of Starfleet Academy.

2283 - Kirk encounters his son David Marcus for the first time in over a decade. David discovers his true parentage and Kirk is able to begin the process of reconciliation with both Carol and David.

OK, so those are the results. Here is my reasoning:

- I've never liked the Okuda theory that Kirk somehow became an Ensign while still at the Academy and a Lieutenant immediately upon graduation. It seems much more reasonable to me to assume that he became an Ensign upon graduation, like most military cadets.

- Starfleet Academy has been pretty well established as being a four-year institution, much like present day Naval Academies. But "Bread and Circuses" contains an odd reference to R.M. Merik getting tossed out of the Academy after failing a psycho-simulator test in his fifth year. Additionally, TWOK shows Saavik taking the Kobayashi Maru test while at the Academy as a Lieutenant.

- Therefore, it seems to me that Starfleet Academy has a 1-2 year Command School in addition to the standard 4-year Academy training. This can be taken immediately after graduation (as Merik did), or sometime later into their careers, as apparently Kirk and Saavik did. Something like the Kobayashi Maru makes much more sense if it's specifically only for students on the command track, not everyone at the Academy. It'd be much easier to keep secret, too.

- This makes more sense of Gary Mitchell's comments about "Watch out for Lt. Kirk -- In his class, you either think or sink." It sounds like Mitchell had Kirk as a teacher, which is odd as the two of them seem to be contemporaries. But if Kirk went back to the Academy for a time to recover from the Farragut disaster and contemplate his next career move, it makes a bit more sense.

- If, as many fans seem to like, Carol Marcus really was "the little blonde lab technician" that Gary Mitchell set up his friend with, it makes more sense for them to meet between 2257-2260 than during Kirk's time as an Academy midshipman in 2250-2254.

- I think this also has the potential of giving Kirk a clearer character arc. In the years following his near-death experience at Tarsus IV, young Kirk becomes ultra-serious and by the book ("a stack of books with legs"). After his second near-death experience on the Farragut, his friendship with Gary Mitchell teaches him the value of occasionally breaking the rules. Kirk loosens up and becomes more willing to consider unconventional solutions to problems like the Kobayashi Maru scenario, pushing him closer to the Kirk we see in TOS.

- Similarly, as you often can be after the end of a major relationship, Kirk is alone for a few years after his breakup with Carol Marcus, concentrating on his career. His relationship with Janet Wallace breaks him out of this romantic funk, which is why he still has such fond memories of her in "The Deadly Years."

- My friend (and ST comics writer) Glenn Greenberg was talking recently how it made more sense if Kirk did not know about David Marcus until sometime after TOS, and I agree with him. Although I haven't read the book, I understand that Michael Jan Friedman's novel Faces of Fire follows this scenario, with Spock deducing David's true parentage.

The only thing that doesn't really fit is that McCoy says in TWOK that Kirk was a cadet when he took the the Kobayashi Maru test, but I think that the rest jibes pretty well with the facts as we know them.

Questions? Thoughts?

 

[BillJ]

I never did like the idea of a second five-year mission. Been there, done that, got the Blu-rays. I'm not necessarily opposed to the idea of him commanding the Enterprise again sometime between The Motion Picture and The Wrath of Khan. But, a second five-year mission seems very unimaginative.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

I never did like the idea of a second five-year mission. Been there, done that, got the Blu-rays. I'm not necessarily opposed to the idea of him commanding the Enterprise again sometime between The Motion Picture and The Wrath of Khan. But, a second five-year mission seems very unimaginative.

Eh, it fills the gap, and I have yet to read any ideas for that timeframe that I like better (YMMV). That was one of the things I didn't change from the official chronology, though.

 

[Tracy Trek]

Additionally, TWOK shows Saavik taking the Kobayashi Maru test while at the Academy as a Lieutenant.

It makes sense. I've wondered why Saavik was a Lt. while still a student.

 

[The Old Mixer]

(Mods: I posted this in General Trek Discussion, as it incorporates stuff from both TOS and the movies. If you feel that it's more appropriate somewhere else, feel free to move it.)

It's cool here, for the reasons stated.

I like the command school thing...it's been speculated elsewhere (e.g., the FASA RPG), and while not confirmed in canon, it's also not denied. And Mitchell's line about being in Kirk's class only really makes sense if Kirk was teaching.

What's established in canon but missing is Kirk leaving Starfleet for a time and having his relationship with Antonia, as established in Generations. This seemed to be not too long before TWOK. My head canon is that after his post-TMP command of the Enterprise, Starfleet was going to force him back to a desk job and that's why he left.

I'm also very keen on the idea that WNMHGB takes place before the 5-year mission, and that the Enterprise had time to get a major refit to her production configuration before the 5-year mission commenced (which makes a lot more sense than taking the ship out of service for months during the 5-year mission). So I'd nudge things so that Kirk had command of the Enterprise by 2264 at the latest...maybe 2263; with the 5YM still beginning in 2265.

 

[Stevil2001]

This does require you to ignore Kirk's description of Gary as a man he's known for fifteen years. In your timeline, it's not even ten!

 

[JonnyQuest037]

I like the command school thing...it's been speculated elsewhere (e.g., the FASA RPG), and while not confirmed in canon, it's also not denied. And Mitchell's line about being in Kirk's class only really makes sense if Kirk was teaching.

Yeah. Of course, I may be opening up a whole can of worms here, because this means I'll also have to find appropriate times for Sulu and Chekov to go to command school, too...

Another thing I like about this solution is that it brings Prime Kirk's backstory a bit closer to what we saw in ST09. With this sequence of events, they both took the KM test in 2258 (although I think that Prime Kirk's solution wasn't exactly the same as Kelvin Kirk's).

What's established in canon but missing is Kirk leaving Starfleet for a time and having his relationship with Antonia, as established in Generations. This seemed to be not too long before TWOK. My head canon is that after his post-TMP command of the Enterprise, Starfleet was going to force him back to a desk job and that's why he left.

Yeah, I like that rationalization. I honestly still haven't incorporated the whole Antonia/temporary retirement thing into my timeline, largely because it kind of mucks up TWOK's continuity, and partly because GEN sucked. The explanation I've liked the most had Kirk telling her that he was returning to Starfleet around the end of TVH. That makes the most sense to me.

I'm also very keen on the idea that WNMHGB takes place before the 5-year mission, and that the Enterprise had time to get a major refit to her production configuration before the 5-year mission commenced (which makes a lot more sense than taking the ship out of service for months during the 5-year mission). So I'd nudge things so that Kirk had command of the Enterprise by 2264 at the latest...maybe 2263; with the 5YM still beginning in 2265.

Yeah. In my mind there's a bit of a gap between WNMHGB and "Corbomite Maneuver", too. I just tend to have it occurring during the 5YM, as I don't like pushing Kirk's captaincy any further back than it already is. I figure becoming a Captain by 31 makes him enough of a wunderkind. I'm guessing that WNM takes place in April or May of 2265 and then the series proper kicks in around September or October of 2265 (Which lets us have "Charlie X" takes place around Thanksgiving). But I totally get the rationale for 2264.

This does require you to ignore Kirk's description of Gary as a man he's known for fifteen years. In your timeline, it's not even ten!

...Now where did I say that Kirk and Mitchell didn't meet in 2250? Right now I'm figuring that they were classmates at the Academy, became friends, served together on a ship or two, and went back for Command School around the same time. Gary hears about how strict his friend is being from Kirk's students, and figures all work and no play makes Jimmy a dull boy. Enter the blonde lab tech.

I think that still fits with everything said in WNMHGB... "Hey man, I remember you back at the academy. A stack of books with legs. The first thing I ever heard from upperclassmen was, “Watch out for Lieutenant Kirk. In his class, you either think or sink.” and "Gary told me that you've been friends since he joined the service, that you asked for him aboard your first command." I just had to interpret it a little creatively, since the dialogue suggests that Gary was a former student of Kirk's while William Shatner and Gary Lockwood were obviously contemporaries in age.

 

[Stevil2001]

...Now where did I say that Kirk and Mitchell didn't meet in 2250? Right now I'm figuring that they were classmates at the Academy, became friends, served together on a ship or two, and went back for Command School around the same time. Gary hears about how strict his friend is being from Kirk's students, and figures all work and no play makes Jimmy a dull boy. Enter the blonde lab tech.

I think that still fits with everything said in WNMHGB... "Hey man, I remember you back at the academy. A stack of books with legs. The first thing I ever heard from upperclassmen was, “Watch out for Lieutenant Kirk. In his class, you either think or sink.” and "Gary told me that you've been friends since he joined the service, that you asked for him aboard your first command." I just had to interpret it a little creatively, since the dialogue suggests that Gary was a former student of Kirk's while William Shatner and Gary Lockwood were obviously contemporaries in age.

I think it's really reading against the dialogue to argue that Mitchell knew Kirk before he heard about him from the upperclassmen, and that Mitchell was not a student of Kirk's at the time. If he wasn't taking a class at the Academy (which I assume he wouldn't be if he was also in Command School), what's his incentive for distracting Kirk?

Though I don't have a better solution. "Where No Man" is a pretty big outlier in terms of everything else we know about Kirk's age and career.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

I think it's really reading against the dialogue to argue that Mitchell knew Kirk before he heard about him from the upperclassmen, and that Mitchell was not a student of Kirk's at the time. If he wasn't taking a class at the Academy (which I assume he wouldn't be if he was also in Command School), what's his incentive for distracting Kirk?

Yeah. Not my typical solution to these sorts of dilemmas, I admit. I usually bend over backwards to respect the creator intent. I figure that the dialogue is just vague enough that I could get away with it. If Gary said something as unambiguous as "I was your best student" or "Man, you were a tough teacher", I doubt I'd have thought of this.

Who knows? Maybe 23-year-old Gary still had enough of a baby face that he was mistaken for a midshipman by an ignorant upperclassman and was told "Watch out for Lieutenant Kirk..." Gary's just the type of guy who'd find the error amusing and use it as an excuse to mess with his friend.

Yeah, it's far from a perfect solution, which is why I wanted feedback on it, to plug any holes.

 

[Tenacity]

Questions? Thoughts?

2231 - Kirk (aged 0) born.
2248 - Kirk (aged 17) graduates high school, soon after enters academy.
2249 - Kirk meets Janice Lester,
2250 - Kirk meets Gary Mitchell (age 13).
2252 - Ensign Kirk (aged 21) graduates, assigned to Republic.
2254 - Lt (jg) Kirk assigned to academy as instructor in tactics and history. Gary Mitchell enters SF academy (age 17).
2254 - Kirk meets Carol Marcus.
2255 - David Marcus is born.
2256 - Lt Kirk assign to Farragut.
2257 - The protracted separation result in Kirk and Marcus breaking-up.
2259 - Lt Commander Kirk (aged 28) assigned as first officer to ship on 3 year mission.
2261 - Kirk meets Janet Wallace, she is a officer assigned to the same ship.
2262 - Commander Kirk (age 31) takes command of a destroyer type starship. Requests Gary Mitchell be assign to his new ship.

2262 - Kirk meets Areel Shaw, a legal officer aboard the same ship. After they separate Kirk resolve not to have relationship with women assigned to a ship he commands.

2264 - Commander Kirk (age 33) takes command of the Enterprise, voyage to upper edge of galaxy, Enterprise receives repairs on return. Gary Mitchell killed (age 27).

2265 - Captain Kirk (age 34) begins 5 year mission.
2265 - Carol Marcus receives Phd.
2270 - Fleet Captain Kirk (age 38) takes Enterprise on (non 5 yr) missions.
2273 - Commodore Kirk
2274 - Commodore Kirk (age 41) turns over the Enterprise to Commander Decker. Kirk assigned to staff position at SF Command.

2276 - Rear Admiral Kirk assigned to SF Chief of Operations.
2278 - Events of TMP. Afterwards Kirk takes sabbatical from SF, meets Antonia.
2279 - Kirk returns to SF.
2279 - Admiral Kirk (aged 48) instructor in advanced tactics and starship operations at the academy.
2280 - David Marcus receives Phd. David killed.
2280 - Events of TWOK, TSFS, TVH.
2281 - Events of TFF.

Kirk rapid rise in rank is owing to the observed high death rate of starfleet officers and my theory that starfleet (and possibly the federation too) is going through a long period of near explosive expansion. Kirk's promotion every 3rd year on average is a result of this expansion and isn't atypical for other officers in starfleet.

Kirk had known Mitchell for 15 years at the time of WNMHGB.

Kirk was 34 in Deadly Years.

The deal Kirk worked out to get command of the Enterprise in TMP involved losing his position as Chief of Operations.

TWOK is 15 years after Space Seed.

Kirk was never the commandant of SF academy.

David was 25 at the time of his death, younger would have made it hard to believe he possessed a Phd. Let face it, he wasn't all that bright.

After informing Carol of David's death, Kirk and she never saw or spoke again.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Kirk was never the commandant of SF academy.

Just my personal interpretation.

David was 25 at the time of his death, younger would have made it hard to believe he possessed a Phd. Let face it, he wasn't all that bright.

I went with David being 22-23 in TWOK, since that jibed with Merritt Butrick's real age during shooting and release (born Sept. 3, 1959). I honestly wasn't considering the time it would take for him to get a doctorate, so that's a good point. I suppose that either way, though, he'd have to be a prodigy of some kind.

We're in agreement on Kirk being 34 in "The Deadly Years" and turning 49 in TWOK, though.

Thanks for sharing your version, Tenacity!

 

[KeepOnTrekking]

I like your timeline. I started something similar years ago trying to keep it grounded in what was seen on the screen. I don't believe in stardates being sequential or 1 year of episode production equaling 1 year in the ST universe. Sorry, Okudas.

You're right on target with the 5YM being from 2265-2270 ("Q2").
I started with a Spock timeline, which I'll gloss over for brevity. I came up with approximately 8 months between Pike's handing over the Enterprise to Kirk and the start of the 5YM. I believe "Corbomite Maneuver" to be a Year 1 story. Whether "Where No Man has Gone Before" occurs during Year 1 or during the 8 months prior, let's assume they both occur within a calendar year.

In "Corbomite," McCoy says that he promoted Lt. Bailey too fast because Bailey reminded Kirk of himself 11 years ago. Let's assume Kirk graduated from the Academy as Ensign 11 years before Year 1. In "Where No Man," Dehner says that Kirk was friends with Mitchell since the day Kirk entered the service. Kirk later says that he has known Mitchell for 15 years. Let's assume Kirk entered the Academy 15 years ago.

In TNG's "Coming of Age," it said that you have to be at least 16 to enter the Academy. That would make Kirk 31 during Year 1. Kirk says he's 34 during "The Deadly Years" which would place it during Year 3.

Let's assume that Kirk took command of the Enterprise 8 months prior and that this was during 2264. Adding 30 years to this date would place "Generations" during 2294 because Kirk first assumed command 30 years earlier according to a reporter.

9 years earlier, Kirk told Antonia that he was leaving to go back to Starfleet. This would be 2285. If "Balance of Terror" occurred during Year 1 in 2265 (with the founding of the Nimbus colony soon after), this would place "The Final Frontier" during 2285 also.

Then there's the damning "15 years" between "Space Seed" and "Wrath of Khan." Zipping back to the Spock timeline mentioned earlier, I had come up with "Enemy Within" during Year 1, "The Menagerie" and "This Side of Paradise" during Year 2, "Amok Time," "Journey to Babel," and "Enterprise Incident" during Year 3 and "Yesteryear" during Year 5. Since I have 1st year episodes during Years 1 and 2 of the 5YM, it really wouldn't be much more of a stretch to put "Space Seed" during Year 3 (2267-2268). Which would put "Wrath of Khan" during 2283. Which comes close to the date on the Romulan ale bottle.

If we really stretch the 15 years with 6-11 more months forward and stretch the 9 years from "Generations with 6-11 more months backwards we can get Kirk leaving Antonia and "Wrath of Khan" occurring during 2284.

"Search for Spock" follows "Wrath of Khan." 3 months later comes "Voyage Home." All in 2284.

We're going to have to assume there was around 6 months shakedown time (similar to Decker's 2 1/2 years in STTMP) to account for getting "Final Frontier" into 2285. Scotty said something about Kirk giving him 8 weeks was too much time. So we know there was at least 2 months. Maybe the new ship had more problems than we know which caused Scotty to claim that the ship was built by "monkeys."

We had to pad 6 -11 some months to stretch a couple of numbers and let go of the idea of first season episodes occurring during Year 1 of the 5YM (and so on), but it holds up fairly well so far. I'll try to post more later.

 

[Phoenix219]

I like a lot of the ideas presented here. I've always considered No Man to be the end of an unseen full season/year, the 2265-2266 first year of the mission. If we had gotten to know Kelso, Mitchell, Boyce (or is it Piper?), etc throughout an entire season of adventures, how much more of an impact would the already fantastic pilot have become?

 

[JonnyQuest037]

I like your timeline. I started something similar years ago trying to keep it grounded in what was seen on the screen.

Thanks! This is just excerpts from what I've been working on. I suppose sooner or later I'll post the whole thing somewhere.

I don't believe in stardates being sequential or 1 year of episode production equaling 1 year in the ST universe. Sorry, Okudas.

Me neither. Here's how I worked out TOS stardates:

Like with TNG, I assume that 1000 stardate units = 1 year, but that it's tracking the mission year, not Jan-Dec. When the majority of stardates shift over 1000 units, I figure that it's a new year on the mission. In TOS, the stardates range from the early 1000s to the late 5000s, which is perfect to cover 5 years. So a mission with a stardate in the 1000s would be the first year of the 5YM, a Stardate in the 2000s would be the second, and so on. It separates the 5YM into manageable chunks, with room to fit in extra adventures each year (Of course, this system gets screwed up if you decide to include TAS, which I mainly incorporate for background info.). So the 5YM looks like this:

YEAR ONE (2265-2266)
“Where No Man Has Gone Before” (Stardate 1312.4) to “Balance of Terror” (Stardate 1709.2) - 8 episodes

“Charlie X” takes place around Thanksgiving 2265. The Christmas party where Kirk meets Dr. Helen Noel takes place about a month later. “Balance of Terror” takes place shortly after the New Year.

YEAR TWO (2266-2267)
“What Are Little Girls Made Of?” (Stardate 2712.4) to “Court Martial” (Stardate 2947.3) - 6 episodes

YEAR THREE (2267-2268)
“The Menagerie” (Stardate 3012.4) to “The Deadly Years” (Stardate 3478.2) - 24 episodes

Kirk claims to be 34 years old in “The Deadly Years”, while Sulu testifies that he’s served under Kirk for 2 years.

YEAR FOUR (2268-2269)
“I, Mudd” (Stardate 4513.3) to “The Paradise Syndrome” (Stardate 4842.6) - 17 episodes

YEAR FIVE (2269-2270)
“The Enterprise Incident” (Stardate 5027.3) to “Turnabout Intruder” (Stardate 5928.5) - 20 episodes

Kang states in “Day of the Dove” that it has been 3 years since the Organian Peace Treaty, established after “Errand of Mercy” in 2267.

When we get into the movie era, I assume that the stardates "reset" every decade or so. So TMP (with a stardate in the 7000s) takes place not too long after TOS (I like Roddenberry's figure of 2.8 years after the 5YM), TWOK-TFF all take place in the same decade in the 8000s, and TUC is about a decade after TWOK, with a stardate in the 9000s. Hope that makes sense.

I came up with approximately 8 months between Pike's handing over the Enterprise to Kirk and the start of the 5YM. I believe "Corbomite Maneuver" to be a Year 1 story. Whether "Where No Man has Gone Before" occurs during Year 1 or during the 8 months prior, let's assume they both occur within a calendar year.

Was there anything specific that led you to an 8-month gap, or was that just the amount of time that sounded right to you?

In "Corbomite," McCoy says that he promoted Lt. Bailey too fast because Bailey reminded Kirk of himself 11 years ago. Let's assume Kirk graduated from the Academy as Ensign 11 years before Year 1.

That lines up with my timeline fine, as I have "Corbomite" happening in 2265 and Kirk graduating in 2254. I also use the "11 years ago" comment to establish a probable timeframe of Kirk & McCoy meeting for the first time -- 11 years is a unusually specific timeframe to give if you weren't personally acquainted with the person you're talking about. This, together with the timeframe references in "The Man Trap" had me pin the Kirk/McCoy meeting to 2255 -- which also establishes when McCoy got divorced & entered Starfleet. And oddly enough, this is exactly when the Kelvin timeline has that stuff happening (I'm not bending over backwards to incorporate Kelvin continuity into a TOS timeline, but I'm not ignoring serendipity, either).

...That means that McCoy had an extramarital affair with Nancy Crater, though. Sorry, folks, but I think a flaw like that gives McCoy a more interesting backstory than the divorce being all Jocelyn McCoy's fault. And it would explain why "my wife got the whole planet in the divorce."

In TNG's "Coming of Age," it said that you have to be at least 16 to enter the Academy. That would make Kirk 31 during Year 1.

Interesting! Honestly, I would have rather had Kirk enter the Academy at 17, as that's the age given in The Making of Star Trek and that jibes with the age of real-life Naval cadets (accepted from ages 17-23), but that's good to hear. The justification I was thinking was that Mallory's father (from "The Apple") helped Kirk get into the Academy a little earlier than normal. Thanks for sharing that, as I don't know TNG and the subsequent shows nearly as well as TOS.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

like a lot of the ideas presented here. I've always considered No Man to be the end of an unseen full season/year, the 2265-2266 first year of the mission.

I'm personally reluctant to give over a full year of the 5YM to the Mitchell/Kelso/Piper era, as that eats up a lot of time that could be better devoted elsewhere. So I just figure that that crew had a very eventful few months at the top of the 5YM, where stories like "Strangers From the Sky" can go.

 

[Phoenix219]

Well to me, it seems there was a lot of established history and relationships between the crew; a lot of familiarity and a good comfort level, for sure. The aesthetic changes and the crew changes imply that some amount of time could have passed. We determined some reasons for wanting to push forward the date of Space Seed, as well, so getting S2 closer to Year Three works for me.

Maybe it helps because I don't consider the novels to be canon, just TOS, TAS and STC, lol.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Well to me, it seems there was a lot of established history and relationships between the crew; a lot of familiarity and a good comfort level, for sure.

Yeah, I can certainly see that. But who knows? Maybe Kirk, Mitchell, and Kelso had all served together before on another ship, and that accounts for their familiarity. Kirk and Spock certainly still seem to be only newly-acquainted in WNMHGB, in my opinion (them playing chess together is enough of a novelty for Mitchell to ask them about it, the final line "I think there's hope for you after all, Mister Spock", etc.).

The aesthetic changes and the crew changes imply that some amount of time could have passed.

Yes, I agree. I just have it in a matter of months rather than an entire year or more.

Maybe it helps because I don't consider the novels to be canon, just TOS, TAS and STC, lol.

That certainly does make things simpler! I consider TOS to be a framework that I hang other things around. If I really like an episode of TAS, a novel, comic, or a fan film and it doesn't seem majorly out of step with TOS, then sure, it happened in my head canon. If I don't like it, I'm not going to bend over backwards to try to make it fit. It's what I call a salad bar approach to continuity: I take what I like and leave the rest alone.

STC loses me a bit with the counselor in the 23rd century thing, but I like most of what I've seen of it. I need to see more episodes!

 

[Phoenix219]

She gets a scene here or there, but has not been overwhelmingly pushed in the show. I rationalize it in my head as a Dr. Noel/psychiatrist type role, but they do make a point that the "counselor" is a new thing that is being tried for the first time. Its probably an experiment that gets shelved for a few decades.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Yeah, it's just that the whole "counselor" thing is SUCH a 1980s/TNG concept ("Let's have our therapist go into space with us!"), coupled with the fact that the part is played by Vic M's wife or girlfriend (I forget which), it throws me right out of the episode as soon as they bring it up. YMMV.

 

[Tenacity]

Kang states in “Day of the Dove” that it has been 3 years since the Organian Peace Treaty, established after “Errand of Mercy” in 2267.

I'm comfortable with that being a case of a alien using their own alien calendar.

I like Roddenberry's figure of 2.8 years after the 5YM

Really I don't. The reason I separated the end of the of the 5 year mission and Kirk being promoted to Admiral as much as possible was to give Kirk a chance to be first a Fleet Captain, then a Commodore, before becoming a Rear Admiral.

Roddenberry's idea than Kirk was promoted to Admiral primarily as a publicity stunt on Starfleet Admiralty's part never has sat well with me. I want Starfleet to be a professional organization.

I get that Roddenberry had a growing philosophy concerning the inherent wrongness of authority figures (the eventual evil admiral syndrome), but I personally reject it.

11 years is a unusually specific timeframe to give if you weren't personally acquainted with the person you're talking about

Kirk and McCoy could have initially met fairly casually and didn't form a friendship until years later.

And please, where are you getting the 11 year figure?

Maybe Kirk, Mitchell, and Kelso had all served together before on another ship

Dr, Dehner said that Kirk requested Mitchell on his first command, that doesn't automatically mean Kirk got him. We've seen both Kirk and Picard retain certain officers when they moved to a new ship. If Kirk, Mitchell, and Kelso all served aboard Kirk's first (destroyer) command, Kirk could have brought them to the Enterprise when he was assigned as it's commander.