ST Chronology Idea - Kirk, Command School, Carol & David Marcus

[The Old Mixer]

The 15 year line in WNMHGB (which I'd forgotten) really is a clunker that limits things too much. There's a 6-year age difference between Shatner and Lockwood, so it's credible that a graduated Lt. Kirk taught Mitchell when the latter was an underclassman. With no other context, and going by the actors' ages, if that was 15 years before WNMHGB, then Lt. Kirk was teaching at the academy at about the age of 19, and Mitchell was his underclassman student at 13!

 

[JonnyQuest037]

I'm comfortable with that being a case of a alien using their own alien calendar.

I'm not. Saying, "Oh, but those were Klingon years" has always seemed like a cop out to me. If "Day of the Dove" takes place c. 2270 and "Errand of Mercy" takes place in 2267 (which they do in my timeline), then Kang's dialogue works.

Really I don't. The reason I separated the end of the of the 5 year mission and Kirk being promoted to Admiral as much as possible was to give Kirk a chance to be first a Fleet Captain, then a Commodore, before becoming a Rear Admiral.

I can see what you're saying, and I'm the first to admit that "Commodore Kirk" has a lovely ring to it, but then why do Scotty, Sulu, and Uhura, all only move up one grade in rank in that same timeframe (Chekov apparently moves up two, if you figure that he spent some time as a Lt. J.G.)? That, combined with Kirk not having logged any time in space in 2 1/2 years, points to a shorter span of time since the end of TOS.

Kirk and McCoy could have initially met fairly casually and didn't form a friendship until years later.

Certainly possible.

And please, where are you getting the 11 year figure?

From "The Corbomite Maneuver":

MCCOY: I'm especially worried about Bailey. Navigator's position's rough enough for a seasoned man.
KIRK: I think he'll cut it.
MCCOY: Oh? How so sure? Because you spotted something you liked in him, something familiar, like yourself, say about, oh, eleven years ago?

IMO that sounds a little more familiar than just McCoy quoting Kirk's service record.

Dr, Dehner said that Kirk requested Mitchell on his first command, that doesn't automatically mean Kirk got him.

True. I'm still personally undecided if "first command" in that dialogue means the Enterprise or the smaller ship that Kirk led at the rank of Commander. I'm also conflicted about reconciling the bit about Spock and Mitchell working together "for years." I suppose the simplest solution would be to have Commander Kirk request Mitchell on the Saladin, but not get him because Starfleet assigns Mitchell to the Enterprise under Pike.

If Kirk, Mitchell, and Kelso all served aboard Kirk's first (destroyer) command, Kirk could have brought them to the Enterprise when he was assigned as it's commander.

Yes, this is basically what I'm saying. There's a certain familiarity among those three in WNMHGB. Maybe Kelso attended the Academy with Kirk and Mitchell?

There's a 6-year age difference between Shatner and Lockwood, so it's credible that a graduated Lt. Kirk taught Mitchell when the latter was an underclassman.

Wow, I'm honestly surprised there's that much difference in their ages. But yeah, the "a man I've known for 15 years" really seems to imply that they were contemporaries.

With no other context, and going by the actors' ages, if that was 15 years before WNMHGB, then Lt. Kirk was teaching at the academy at about the age of 19, and Mitchell was his underclassman student at 13!

 

[J.T.B.]

I can see what you're saying, and I'm the first to admit that "Commodore Kirk" has a lovely ring to it, but then why do Scotty, Sulu, and Uhura, all only move up one grade in rank in that same timeframe (Chekov apparently moves up two, if you figure that he spent some time as a Lt. J.G.)? That, combined with Kirk not having logged any time in space in 2 1/2 years, points to a shorter span of time since the end of TOS.

Well, who knows. It is standard for a US Navy officer to go through both ensign and JG within five years, then spend another five years as a lieutenant.

I like the idea of Kirk being in a "ground" assignment for a couple of years, and I like the idea of a Command School. People seem to think of Star Trek officer careers as an unbroken string of starship postings, without staff tours, graduate school etc. that modern military officers spend years doing.

 

[Tenacity]

then Lt. Kirk was teaching at the academy at about the age of 19, and Mitchell was his underclassman student at 13!

I went with Kirk first meeting Mitchell, when Mitchell was in his early teens and still a civilian. Kirk perhaps was invited to give a speech at Mitchell's middle school and they maintained a correspondence.

This influenced Mitchell to join Starfleet.

Kirk said he knew Mitchell for 15 years, not that they were best buddies the entire time.

I'm also conflicted about reconciling the bit about Spock and Mitchell working together "for years."

Spock serving aboard Kirk's destroyer? Mitchell being on the Enterprise prior to Kirk does make more sense, But Mitchell still could have been on Kirk's destroyer for a time. People get transferred.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

I like the idea of Kirk being in a "ground" assignment for a couple of years, and I like the idea of a Command School. People seem to think of Star Trek officer careers as an unbroken string of starship postings, without staff tours, graduate school etc. that modern military officers spend years doing.

True. There's probably more people in Starfleet serving on starbases and planets than on starships, by a wide margin.

Heck, we know from the backstories of Will Decker, Will Riker, and even McCoy that it's not unusual for Starfleet officers to be posted to planets (remember that McCoy was stationed on Capella IV for a few months, according to "Friday's Child."). Heck, Commodore Stocker became a flag officer despite never commanding a starship!

Kirk said he knew Mitchell for 15 years, not that they were best buddies the entire time.

True. Sometimes you can just be acquaintances with somebody and not become close to them until later. That's certainly happened with a few of my friends.

Spock serving aboard Kirk's destroyer?

I'm not personally nuts about this idea, as I think that WNMHGB shows a Kirk and Spock who are still getting to know each other. I think it dilutes their relationship on TOS too much if they served together on another ship first. I don't have a big problem with Kirk and Spock meeting in passing years before they were on the Enterprise together, though. Like I said above, sometimes you're just acquaintances before you're full-fledged friends.

Mitchell being on the Enterprise prior to Kirk does make more sense, But Mitchell still could have been on Kirk's destroyer for a time. People get transferred.

Yeah, I agree. And the thought of Mitchell knowing Spock for longer -- or better -- than Kirk is a very intriguing one.

 

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

Some years ago I made up a chronology for a Star Trek: Origins scenario (as opposed to Abramstrek), and this was it:


Notable years:

Ca. 2160 The Klingon Chang is born (conjecture)

2222 Montgomery Scott is born

2223 The Federation/Klingon Cold War begins after decades of disastrous hostilities (conjecture)

2227 Leonard McCoy is born

2230 Spock is born

2233 James T. Kirk is born

2235 Gary Mitchell is born (conjecture)

2245 Enterprise is launched with Robert April as CO, George Kirk as XO

2249 Spock enrolls in Starfleet Academy (19 years old)

2250 Kirk enrolls in the Academy (17 years old), later on training mission on the USS Republic

2251 Christopher Pike becomes CO of the Enterprise

2253 Spock graduates (23 years old), assigned USS Enterprise; Kirk is a student instructor; Mitchell enrolls in the Academy

2254 Kirk graduates (21 years old), assigned USS Farragut as Tactical Officer; Enterprise experiences the incident at Talos IV (The Cage)

2255 Kirk on the Farragut at Neural

2257 Farragut crew killed, Kirk survives

2264 Kirk becomes CO of Enterprise (31 years old)

2265 The first five-year mission begins; Mitchell is killed (WNMHGB)

2267 The Organian Peace Treaty (Errand of Mercy)

2293 The Khitomer Accords (The Undiscovered Country)

*****

But I might be inclined to revise it from some of the things I read abovethread. I especially like the idea of a Command School for Kirk.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

That's more or less the Okuda chronology, isn't it? I'm not seeing any major differences.

 

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

^ Might be. As I said, it was many years ago when I did that and I cannot remember where I got all the info from.

 

[KeepOnTrekking]

Was there anything specific that led you to an 8-month gap, or was that just the amount of time that sounded right to you?

Ok, this will require my explaining part of my Spock timeline. In "Enemy Within," Spock identifies himself in a log entry as Second Officer. In "Yesteryear," McCoy says that Thelin has been Kirk's first officer for 5 years. Spock later says that everything has remained the same except his presence which implies that Spock, in the real timeline, also has been Kirk's first officer for 5 years. This led me to believe that "Enemy Within" happened during the first 6 months of Year 1 and that "Yesteryear" occurred during the last 6 months of Year 5.

In "Yesteryear," it is that that Spock underwent the Kahs-wan 30 years ago. It is referred to as 30 years and as 30 Vulcan years. Sarek in "Journey to Babel" goes to the trouble to mention that he translated his age into Earth years indicating that there is a difference between the two. But since they mention the Kahs-wan happening 30 years ago in both years and Vulcan years, I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that the difference is still minimal even after 30 years.

At age 7, Spock undergoes his "trial" Kahs-wan and a month later takes the real Kahs-wan. It sounds like the Kahs-wan is the first important milestone in a Vulcan boy's life as young Spock has not yet decided to commit to Vulcan or human ways. It seems logical that Spock takes the kahs-wan, passes, and decides to follow the Vulcan path before he undergoes the Vulcan ritual of joining minds with T'Pring at the age of 7 ("Amok Time").

In "The Search for Spock" Saavik says that the Vulcan male must endure pon farr every 7 years of his adult life. When does the adult life begin? In "Yesteryear," Sarek states that passing the Kahs-wan is the test of adulthood. After the Kahs-wan, Spock is joined with T'Pring and starts the 7 year cycle. The pon farr cycle at age 35 is the only one that falls within the 5 year mission. This is how I placed "Amok Time" during Year 3.

There has been various speculations about why Spock emotes at times early in the series. But I like the idea of them happening near a pon farr cycle. Assuming that "The Cage" happens during a pon farr cycle and that "The Menagerie" occurs 13 years later, "The Cage" would have to happen at the age 21 cycle and places "The Menagerie" during Year 2. The same reasoning places Spock's first meeting with Leila during the age 28 cycle and places "This Side of Paradise" during Year 2 also.

Before we go any further, we have to talk about the Academy and Command School. In TNG's "The Drumhead," Picard is talking with crewman Tarses. Tarses says that he attended the Academy's training program for enlisted personnel. Picard asks if he ever considered going the whole route and attending the Academy to become an officer. Tarses replies that he was eager to get into space and had just spent 2 years in classrooms and didn't want to spend 4 more in them. So Starfleet has a 2 year training program for enlisted men and a 4 year Academy program for those wanting to be an officer. Pretty straight forward so far.

You've already mentioned about Merik being dropped in his fifth year in "Bread and Circuses." this implies further training after graduating the Academy as ensign. I believe this to be referring to a Command school for those wanting more extensive training to become a command officer (as opposed to just a science officer or engineering officer). This lasts at least 1 year, possibly more.

In "Wrath of Khan" Saavik takes the Kobayashi Maru as a lieutenant. Kirk has taken it also. Spock states that he hasn't. How is this possible? Spock has always stated that he never sought out command ("Galileo Seven," "Enterprise Incident," "Wrath of Khan") so it's unlikely he would have attended Command school. This would be the reason why he never took the Kobayashi Maru. The test is administered during command school. After all the subject of the test is in a command situation. The Kobayshi Maru would also seem similar to the other psychosimulator tests mentioned in "Bread and Circuses" that Merik failed. So Spock would appear to graduate the Academy and went straight into actual deep space duty. (At the end of "The Cage," Pike makes it pretty clear in his remark to Number One that the Enterprise isn't a cadet ship.)

in "Enterprise Incident," Spock states that he has been a Starfleet Officer for 18 years. Since only certain people are allowed to enter the Academy to become an officer, we can include those 4 years as part of the 18. There is 13 years between "The Cage" and "The Menagerie." From the beginning of the year including "The Cage" to the end of the year including "The Menagerie" is 14 years. Adding the 4 years of the Academy brings us to 18. "The Enterprise Incident" would have to come in Year 3 (after Year 2's "Menagerie"). If we didn't include the 4 Academy years, it would place the "Enterprise Incident" after the 5YM or Spock's entrance into the Academy before he's 16.

In "The Menagerie," Spock states that he served with Pike for 11 years, 4 months, and 5 days. Starting from the beginning of the year of The Cage" and going forward 11 yea, 4 months, & 5 days place the end of Pike's command of the Enterprise approximately 8 months before the start of Kirk's 5YM.

 

[Timo]

The usual points, plus random sniping:

Graduating doesn't necessarily mean Kirk would "leave the Academy". Quite possibly he became an instructor right off the bat, and never left - not during his Republic assignment, not during the time he taught his old friend Mitchell - until the Farragut assignment, which was the first time he got Garrovick as his CO.

A separate Command School is fine for Saavik, who was a commissioned Lieutenant when taking the final test. Kirk took the test while a Cadet, though. No doubt a carefully calculating Vulcan with no real command ambitions, egos to bruise, yadda yadda, would either skip or postpone the part of the training that gave him or her command qualifications. Spock skipped, Saavik postponed.

Length of Academy training is clearly very flexible. Four years might be common, but nowhere is it indicated to be standard, and "Bread and Circuses" and STXI speak against standarization. Tailoring one's curriculum to include or exclude things like command qualifications courses may well be the routine thing instead.

That Spock would experience pon farr on schedule in "Amok Time" is IMHO unlikely, as he believed he would be spared the experience. Such belief would have to be founded on something. The assumption of the usual schedule would be a good, solid foundation, and the reality of an altered schedule a good match for the eventual outcome.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Tenacity]

In TWOK, McCoy states that Kirk was cadet when he beat the KM.

 

[Timo]

Exactly. And in that movie, nobody calls Saavik a Cadet. So,

1) weird futuristic terminology and the two did the test the exact same way, or
2) Kirk did the test pregrad, Saavik did the test postgrad.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Tenacity]

Or Saavik being a "lieutenant" was merely a cadet ranking, and she wasn't a commissioned lieutenant.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Problem is Kirk was a Lieutenant when he taught Mitchell, but had some space assignments as an Ensign.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

There has been various speculations about why Spock emotes at times early in the series. But I like the idea of them happening near a pon farr cycle. Assuming that "The Cage" happens during a pon farr cycle and that "The Menagerie" occurs 13 years later, "The Cage" would have to happen at the age 21 cycle and places "The Menagerie" during Year 2. The same reasoning places Spock's first meeting with Leila during the age 28 cycle and places "This Side of Paradise" during Year 2 also.

The problem with that is that "Amok Time" is definitely Spock's very first Pon Farr. I see no other way to interpret his "I hope I would be spared this..." line. I think it's very likely that Spock's human side or suppressed reluctance to marry T'Pring threw off the cycle somehow. If Spock had known that his Pon Farr was coming on a set schedule, he would have requested leave months ahead of time and the entire episode as we saw it would not have happened.

The theory I use for my timeline is a bit similar to what you propose: Spock was unconsciously suppressing his Pon Farr, and it occasionally came out as erratic emotions ("THE WOMEN!") or by giving out pheromones that made him irresistible to someone like Leila Kolami. I saw that idea in another chronology online, liked it a lot, and so I pinched it for mine.

In TNG's "The Drumhead," Picard is talking with crewman Tarses. Tarses says that he attended the Academy's training program for enlisted personnel. Picard asks if he ever considered going the whole route and attending the Academy to become an officer. Tarses replies that he was eager to get into space and had just spent 2 years in classrooms and didn't want to spend 4 more in them. So Starfleet has a 2 year training program for enlisted men and a 4 year Academy program for those wanting to be an officer.

Ah, cool! Another TNG tidbit about the Academy that I'd long since forgotten! Thanks, that makes a lot of sense.

You've already mentioned about Merik being dropped in his fifth year in "Bread and Circuses." this implies further training after graduating the Academy as ensign. I believe this to be referring to a Command school for those wanting more extensive training to become a command officer (as opposed to just a science officer or engineering officer). This lasts at least 1 year, possibly more.

Yes, that's basically the theory that I've developed.

In "Wrath of Khan" Saavik takes the Kobayashi Maru as a lieutenant. Kirk has taken it also. Spock states that he hasn't. How is this possible? Spock has always stated that he never sought out command ("Galileo Seven," "Enterprise Incident," "Wrath of Khan") so it's unlikely he would have attended Command school. This would be the reason why he never took the Kobayashi Maru. The test is administered during command school. After all the subject of the test is in a command situation.

Yes, that's basically what I believe. I don't see how the KM would be particularly relevant except for someone training to be in command ("Here, Communications Officer Miller, fall down and play dead once stuff starts exploding! Your final grade depends on it!").

But I thought that the ST09 movie had a very clever reason for why Spock never took the KM test: Because he was the guy that created it! It didn't really contradict anything we were told in TWOK, and it enhanced the Kirk/Spock backstory in a very interesting way, IMO.

So Spock would appear to graduate the Academy and went straight into actual deep space duty. (At the end of "The Cage," Pike makes it pretty clear in his remark to Number One that the Enterprise isn't a cadet ship.)

Well, I think all Pike meant by that remark was that the Enterprise wasn't a ship largely crewed by cadets, the way it was in TWOK. He could certainly have a cadet or two on board in some capacity.

in "Enterprise Incident," Spock states that he has been a Starfleet Officer for 18 years. Since only certain people are allowed to enter the Academy to become an officer, we can include those 4 years as part of the 18.

That's a line that I have some trouble with, as it was likely just drawn from the Writers' Guide without adding any additional time on to Spock's career. (You'll notice that Amanda says in "Journey to Babel" that Sarek & Spock haven't spoken as father & son in 18 years). So I tend to discount that line by saying that the "18 years" figure was part of Spock's deception to the Romulan Commander for some reason. And I cheat a bit by adding the time from Spock's visit to his family 4 years before "Journey to Babel" to the 18 years he and Sarek weren't speaking. That way, Spock can serve on another ship or two before he is transferred to the Enterprise, instead of serving on it right out of the Academy.

Graduating doesn't necessarily mean Kirk would "leave the Academy". Quite possibly he became an instructor right off the bat, and never left - not during his Republic assignment, not during the time he taught his old friend Mitchell - until the Farragut assignment, which was the first time he got Garrovick as his CO.

Sure, it's possible that Kirk became an instructor right off the bat, but I personally don't find that a very interesting way for him to start his career.

And in my mind Garrovick was the CO of the Republic and took Kirk along with him when he went to the Farragut. That way Garrovick can both be Kirk's CO from the day he left the Academy and Kirk's time as an Ensign can happen after he graduates.

That Spock would experience pon farr on schedule in "Amok Time" is IMHO unlikely, as he believed he would be spared the experience.

Agreed.

In TWOK, McCoy states that Kirk was cadet when he beat the KM.

Yes, I know. I noted that in the very first post in the thread. I consciously chose to discount it. It's impossible to create a ST timeline without disregarding something along the way.

2) Kirk did the test pregrad, Saavik did the test postgrad.

Very possible. I just had a gap in between Kirk serving on the Farragut in 2257 and him becoming first officer of the El Dorado in 2261, and Kirk going back to the Academy for Command School filled it very nicely. It also saves me the grief of Kirk meeting Carol as "the little blonde lab technician" sometime between 2250-2254, having them separate for some reason, and then having them get back together again to conceive David.

Although, considering the points made earlier in this thread about David having a plausible amount of time to earn his doctorate, I may end up moving his birth date back a bit. I'm still a bit undecided on this.

Or Saavik being a "lieutenant" was merely a cadet ranking, and she wasn't a commissioned lieutenant.

Seems needlessly confusing, as we already have terms like "cadet" and "midshipman" to refer to undergrads at the Academy.

Problem is Kirk was a Lieutenant when he taught Mitchell, but had some space assignments as an Ensign.

It's not a problem if you move Kirk's teaching assignments a few years later in the timeline, which is one of the reasons I did exactly that.

And we know from Spock himself that Kirk was "a young officer on his first deep-space assignment" when he was on the Farragut, so presumably the Republic stayed pretty local. In David A. Goodman's The Autobiography of James T. Kirk, the Republic is an old Baton Rogue class ship making "milk runs" to nearby starbases and colonies.

 

[KeepOnTrekking]

The problem with that is that "Amok Time" is definitely Spock's very first Pon Farr. I see no other way to interpret his "I hope I would be spared this..." line. I think it's very likely that Spock's human side or suppressed reluctance to marry T'Pring threw off the cycle somehow. If Spock had known that his Pon Farr was coming on a set schedule, he would have requested leave months ahead of time and the entire episode as we saw it would not have happened.

The theory I use for my timeline is a bit similar to what you propose: Spock was unconsciously suppressing his Pon Farr, and it occasionally came out as erratic emotions ("THE WOMEN!") or by giving out pheromones that made him irresistible to someone like Leila Kolami. I saw that idea in another chronology online, liked it a lot, and so I pinched it for mine.

I guess I just interpreted the "I hope I would be spared this..." line differently. Saavik said that the Vulcan male must endure pon farr every 7th year of their adult life. I don't believe this to mean every 7 years down to the month, day, or minute by any means. But roughly every 7 years, a year is a big span when trying to coordinate your leave time. "Amok Time" is the first time that Spock succumbed to the pon farr cycle, yes, definitely. But that doesn't mean the cycle didn't try to overwhelm him during the previous 3 cycles. As far as suppressing it unconsciously, I believe that he was aware of it and it was that which gave him the false hope that he would be spared succumbing to it in the future (along with the fact that he's half human). Spock was 3-0 before the one in "Amok Time" where he finally struck out. The fact that he looked so young when he first went through it in "Search for Spock" suggests to me that because his katra wasn't present, Spock was not able to consciously resist giving in to it at the age of 14 like he had done before.

The fact that McCoy referred to Kirk as a cadet when he took the Kobiyashi Maru is a good catch. I had forgotten about that. Just as universities have elective courses depending on what field of study you're majoring in, the Academy could have courses geared specifically towards medicine, science, engineering or command. I'm willing to concede that Kirk took his KM during the Academy as a cadet and that Saavik took hers later as a Lieutenant in command school.

As far as Spock creating the KM, I find it difficult to believe that someone could create and design a test without experiencing it himself somewhere along the way. Kind of like "I built a house with my own hands but I've never stepped inside it." I'm tempted to say just because Spock created the KM in the Kelvin timeline doesn't necessarily mean that he did in the prime timeline. Kind of like Vulcan didn't blow up or Amanda didn't die shortly after Spock and Kirk start their assignment aboard the Enterprise in the prime timeline although it happened in the Kelvin one. But I've been known to do 180s in my thinking before when the evidence becomes too overwhelming. There are always possibilities to explore.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Saavik said that the Vulcan male must endure pon farr every 7th year of their adult life.

Oh, I forgot to mention in my previous response that, in my mind, the regenerated Spock was experiencing Pon Farr at the normal time for Vulcan, around 17-18 years old. So that's when Spock would have had it if his betrothal to T'Pring hadn't been a thing.

"Amok Time" is the first time that Spock succumbed to the pon farr cycle, yes, definitely. But that doesn't mean the cycle didn't try to overwhelm him during the previous 3 cycles.

Yes. We're agreeing more than we're disagreeing.

Just as universities have elective courses depending on what field of study you're majoring in, the Academy could have courses geared specifically towards medicine, science, engineering or command.

Makes total sense to me.

I'm willing to concede that Kirk took his KM during the Academy as a cadet and that Saavik took hers later as a Lieutenant in command school.

Yes, I think that that is certainly very possible. And in the original version of my timeline, I had Kirk taking the KM towards the end of his four years at the Academy. But I'm kind of liking it at this point in the timeline, which unfortunately requires me to discount McCoy's line about Kirk being a cadet when he took the test.

I find it difficult to believe that someone could create and design a test without experiencing it himself somewhere along the way. Kind of like "I built a house with my own hands but I've never stepped inside it."

Well, construction workers build lots of houses that they never live in themselves.

I'm tempted to say just because Spock created the KM in the Kelvin timeline doesn't necessarily mean that he did in the prime timeline.

Yeah, I could go either way on it, honestly. Like I said, I just thought that it was a clever extrapolation that I'd never seen anyone do before.

The way I see the Kelvin timeline is that the divergences built up over time, and each domino knocked over the next one. Like, Nero's attack on the Kelvin resulted in Kirk being born prematurely, and George Kirk, Richard Robau, and several other crewmembers dying. Maybe one of those crewmen was the person who designed the Starfleet aesthetic that we saw in TOS, so the tech evolved in a different direction than it did in the Prime Universe. Then Starfleet built the Riverside shipyards in Iowa in tribute to George Kirk's sacrifice, which resulted in lots of Starfleet personnel being assigned there who otherwise wouldn't have been. And those lives being different affected other people's lives, for better and worse, and within a couple a decades, the timeline has developed in a very different direction. Stuff like the destruction of Vulcan, the death of Amanda, and Sarek and Spock's earlier reconciliation make further changes (Since "Journey to Babel" couldn't have happened in the same way, maybe Tellarite Ambassador Gav is alive in the Kelvin timeline).

Jim Kirk's life obviously diverged in a big way pretty early on, with his mother remarrying and his childhood being very different. I think it's safe to say that the Kelvin Kirk never went to Tarsus IV. And with the lack a strong father figure in his life and a largely absentee mother, Kirk began acting out in anger more and more until he became, as Pike said, the only genius-level multiple offender in the Midwest.

But early on, if the elements are separate enough from each other, some things might have happened in the same ways in both universes. For instance, I have no problem believing that Spock's decision to join Starfleet instead of the Vulcan Science Academy was the same in both universes, because George Kirk's death and the Kelvin's destruction hadn't affected anything on Vulcan yet. Same with the breakup of McCoy's marriage. YMMV, of course.

There are always possibilities to explore.

Yes, exactly. I think it's kind of cool that no two fans see the Trek universe in exactly the same way. IDIC and all of that.

 

[The Old Mixer]

It's not a problem if you move Kirk's teaching assignments a few years later in the timeline, which is one of the reasons I did exactly that.

I know, I was responding to those who were suggesting that he might have done his teaching stint immediately after graduation.

 

[Timo]

That's just it, though: Pike in "The Cage" already establishes that teaching of Cadets may well take place aboard starships. There's nothing wrong with Ensign Kirk teaching Cadets aboard the Republic, then. This would all be before he "left the Academy" or met Garrovick Sr.

If Kirk really is a bookworm at heart, plus him living and breathing Starfleet since childhood (and thus befriending certain another Starfleet brat, younger than himself by several years), it might well be that he plans his Fleet career with exceptional care, having no yearning for rushing into exciting deep space assignments. He knows that deep space kills - for all we know, it killed her mum at Tarsus IV!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[JonnyQuest037]

OK, I just went over to Star Trek Script Search to check the transcripts for the TNG episodes referenced in this thread. Here's the specific dialogue that I found:

In TNG's "Coming of Age," it said that you have to be at least 16 to enter the Academy.

T'SHANIK: Oliana. (to Wesley) T'Shanik of Vulcana Regar.
WESLEY: Wesley Crusher of the Enterprise.
T'SHANIK: You do not look as if you meet the age requirements.
WESLEY: Uh, I'll be sixteen next month.
OLIANA: Happy birthday.

So that seems pretty definitive. A minimum of 16 to enter the Academy in the TNG era.

In TNG's "The Drumhead," Picard is talking with crewman Tarses. Tarses says that he attended the Academy's training program for enlisted personnel. Picard asks if he ever considered going the whole route and attending the Academy to become an officer. Tarses replies that he was eager to get into space and had just spent 2 years in classrooms and didn't want to spend 4 more in them. So Starfleet has a 2 year training program for enlisted men and a 4 year Academy program for those wanting to be an officer.

PICARD: Well, tell me a little about yourself, Crewman. I know you were born on Mars Colony.
TARSES: Yes, sir. All my life I wanted to be in Starfleet. I went to the Academy's training programme for enlisted personnel. I took training as a medical technician and I served at several outposts. The day that I was posted to the Enterprise was the happiest day of my life.
PICARD: Did you ever consider applying to the Academy, going the whole route, apply to become an officer?
TARSES: My parents wanted me to. And then I thought about it. I used to sit under this big tree near the parade grounds
PICARD: An elm tree with a circular bench?
TARSES: Yes, that's the one.
PICARD: I spent many an hour there. It was my favourite spot to study.
TARSES: I used to sit under that tree and watch the drills, picture myself an officer. I know that it would have made my mother very happy, but.
PICARD: You didn't do it.
TARSES: No. I was eighteen, and eager. The last thing I wanted to do was spend four years sitting in classrooms. I wanted to be out there, travelling the stars. I didn't want to wait for anything.

So Tarses confirms that Starfleet Academy is four years for officer training, but no mention of two years' training for enlisted crewmen. All we know is that it was somewhere under four years. Do you recall where you got the two-year figure, @KeepOnTrekking?