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Spirits, ghosts, and that kind of stuff

Gingerbread Demon

Yelling at the Vorlons
Premium Member
This is not aimed at any particular show in scifi but why do some shows find anything remotely spiritual hard to write, either ignore, ir try to explain rather than just let things be what they appear to be?

It's why I love shows that don't like Babylon 5 where we have things like soul hunters that, well hunt souls. I just finished the episode "Day of the dead" where for one day the dead come back from where they are.

They were clearly not apparitions, not holograms, but the actual dead who visited with people connected to them onboard the station. I really like this episode a lot.

Anyway yeah where was I? Yeah why in fiction shows is the spiritual stuff something people get weird about when doing a series or a movie?
 
A lot of sci-fi writers feel science fiction is supposed to be about rational science and will strive to do so. Part of it may be that particular writer having a bad experience with religion and feeling a need to discredit it. Although that isn't always the case. Indeed, Ron Moore, who is himself an atheist actually got frustrated with the fact that Star Trek always requires a rational explanation for everything which is why he included God and Angels as part of BSG, even up to the criticized ending of "God did it" which truth be told, is evident throughout the whole series and isn't as left field as many claim it is in the finale.

There was also SeaQuest, which even in the primarily realistic first season did an episode about a haunted shipwreck where the ghosts were in fact actual ghosts and the episode ends with them moving onto Heaven. Granted, that was due to the network requesting a Halloween themed episode.
 
A lot of sci-fi writers feel science fiction is supposed to be about rational science and will strive to do so. Part of it may be that particular writer having a bad experience with religion and feeling a need to discredit it. Although that isn't always the case. Indeed, Ron Moore, who is himself an atheist actually got frustrated with the fact that Star Trek always requires a rational explanation for everything which is why he included God and Angels as part of BSG, even up to the criticized ending of "God did it" which truth be told, is evident throughout the whole series and isn't as left field as many claim it is in the finale.

There was also SeaQuest, which even in the primarily realistic first season did an episode about a haunted shipwreck where the ghosts were in fact actual ghosts and the episode ends with them moving onto Heaven. Granted, that was due to the network requesting a Halloween themed episode.

Funny you say that I have the whole series of Seaquest and plan to rewatch it at some point. I thought the first season it was at its best but then it got sillier in season 2 and that killed it for me during my first watch. I've done a rewatch before but not many things are remotely memorable to be honest. There's the sub itself which, well it's the star of the show. It does follow a trope and that is feature windows on a deep sea sub... Not possible, not at the depths they portray on the show anyway. But it has two quite large front windows.

Also surprisingly not a heavy sub for all the junk inside. In one episode about a dozen helicopters could move it by ropes
 
I don't mind spiritual stuff if it's done in a way that makes sense with what came before, but if the show is always based around hard core science and then out of nowhere starts throwing in magic and ghosts and like that it does bug me. I think the MCU did a great job of bringing in gods and magic and things like into a more science based world, although they did seem to retcon the Asgardians from advanced aliens in the first Thor to actually being full on gods in the later stuff.
 
There's fantasy and there's science fiction. The supernatural is, by definition, not scientific, so if you've got ghosts and whatnot, that ain't science fiction. It's that simple. It comes down to expectations and the viewer's willing suspension of disbelief. If you say you're playing by one set of rules, stick to that. JMS made a lot of noise when he was promoting B5 early on about how it was going to be the most scientifically accurate SFTV series ever. He... how to put this politely... misrepresented the show, and personally I think B5 is weaker for it.
 
I think it comes down to one's personal belief system. If you are open to the possibility of the religious or unexplainable, then science fiction and ghosts are not irreconcilable. If you are not then you tend to be more critical. It also depends on the set up and structure of the story being told.

For all its flaws, Event Horizon does a great job of bridging the two worlds and leaves it up to the interpretation of the viewer whether the final explanation is scientific or spiritual.

NuBSG also did this. Although the ending was controversial, I think it was well established, both in story and because the original BSG was a religious story, that there was always the possibility of a religious element to the story.
 
Indeed, Ron Moore, who is himself an atheist actually got frustrated with the fact that Star Trek always requires a rational explanation for everything which is why he included God and Angels as part of BSG, even up to the criticized ending of "God did it" which truth be told, is evident throughout the whole series and isn't as left field as many claim it is in the finale.

Indeed. I was one of the people who saw all the explicit mentions of God and angels and prophecy and miracles throughout Moore-BSG and convinced myself "These are false claims, there must be a rational explanation that will eventually come out." But when the finale made it explicit that it was all real, that it had been divine intervention all along, I realized I'd been fooling myself the whole time, that we'd been explicitly told what was going on all along and had just refused to believe it. We're not used to seeing magic realism combined with space opera, so we didn't recognize it for what it was.

Which is particularly ironic in the case of BSG, given that the original series was created as a sci-fi riff on the Book of Mormon and was steeped in religious themes, right up to an episode where Patrick Macnee played the literal Devil. To skirt network censorship, they had to dress up their angels and demons as highly evolved aliens, but it was still clear what the intent was. So why should we have been surprised that the remake was more explicitly grounded in the divine?


There was also SeaQuest, which even in the primarily realistic first season did an episode about a haunted shipwreck where the ghosts were in fact actual ghosts and the episode ends with them moving onto Heaven. Granted, that was due to the network requesting a Halloween themed episode.

Oh, that drove me crazy. The first season generally had such good science, but then at the end they threw it out in favor of a ghost story and an alien episode. And then in season 2, it became so dumb that it made Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea look plausible.

Although what really frustrated me was what the producers said in the press. In season 1, they said "SeaQuest isn't science fiction, it's a plausible extrapolation of the future from real present-day science" -- which is a good basic definition of what science fiction is. Then in season 2, the new producers said, "Okay, we're going to start doing science fiction now," and it became mindless fantasy nonsense. It just underlined the ignorant, derogatory assumptions the general public made at the time about what science fiction was, as if they didn't recognize that the word "science" is 50 percent of it.


I think it comes down to one's personal belief system. If you are open to the possibility of the religious or unexplainable, then science fiction and ghosts are not irreconcilable. If you are not then you tend to be more critical. It also depends on the set up and structure of the story being told.

But science, by its very nature, is not about belief. It's about what can be objectively observed and verified, removing personal bias and subjectivity as completely as possible. It's not just about whether something exists, but about the process of verifying its existence and studying how it works.

What I hate is fiction that depicts supernatural phenomena as existing but being intrinsically "beyond science," as if science were a fixed, unchanging body of knowledge. That's a fundamental misunderstanding of what science is. The whole purpose of science is to expand, to discover new things. A century and a half ago, quantum physics would've been seen as a fantasy beyond what was known to science. But now, it's the foundation of all modern physics and of everyday technology like diodes and transistors. Since it was real, science was able to observe, confirm, and use it, to expand itself to encompass that reality. That is literally what science is for.

By the same token, in a universe where magic or ghosts or whatever existed, they would be part of the workings of the universe, so the science of that universe should be able to observe them, confirm their reality, learn the rules by which they operate, and incorporate them into the ever-expanding body of scientific knowledge. If existing scientific tools (technological, conceptual, or mathematical) don't account for them, it's the job of scientists to devise new models and principles that can encompass them.

This is what I love about the premise of Ghostbusters. Ghosts exist in that universe, but the protagonists are scientists who study them and develop technology to detect and contain them. There's no claim of an intrinsic separation between the natural and supernatural; it's all one reality that science can learn to understand and address. (I guess you could say the same about Danny Phantom, while we're at it.)

Also, of course, what you believe about reality should have nothing to do with what you consider acceptable in a work of fiction. I don't believe the paranormal exists in reality, but it exists in the Ghostbusters universe, and that franchise gets it right that science is a process that can expand to encompass its existence, rather than a rigid dogma that can't learn new things.


For all its flaws, Event Horizon does a great job of bridging the two worlds and leaves it up to the interpretation of the viewer whether the final explanation is scientific or spiritual.

I liked the idea that the "supernatural" phenomena were the result of the different physical laws of the other universe. I saw a similar idea in prose story once, Greg Bear's novella "The Way of All Ghosts," in which interaction with another universe with a higher (?) "dimension of order" had effects on matter, mind, and reality that were hellish and unbearable to people from our universe.

Event Horizon also offered a relatively plausible depiction of the effects of exposing a person to vacuum -- at least, more plausible than the idiotic "explosive decompression" of Outland or the usual instant-freeze nonsense (which is the opposite of what would happen, since vacuum is an insulator, and any moisture on the skin would sublimate to vapor from the lack of pressure rather than solidifying).
 
BSG, given that the original series was created as a sci-fi riff on the Book of Mormon
It’s a sci-fi riff on mormonism, but if you want a sci-fi riff on the Book of Mormon specifically, you need to go to Scott Card’s “Homecoming” pentology. Card’s “Alvin Maker” series is his riff on the life of OG Mormon fraudster Joseph Smith with the fraud and the 14-year-old brides elided.
 
It’s a sci-fi riff on mormonism, but if you want a sci-fi riff on the Book of Mormon specifically, you need to go to Scott Card’s “Homecoming” pentology. Card’s “Alvin Maker” series is his riff on the life of OG Mormon fraudster Joseph Smith with the fraud and the 14-year-old brides elided.
All this talk about Mormonism. If you haven't seen Heretic yet, it is a really good film.
 
I think part of the reason I'm more accepting of ghosts and things like that in my sci-fi is because I've had a first hand encounter with a ghost and believe 100% that they're real.
 
I've seen some weird shit, one was a shadowy orb floating at about head height in the middle of the night. But I've done enough hallucinogens to know that the human brain can just make shit up under the right conditions. Our sense of reality can be very fragile, a lot more than we really like to think about.

But if ghosts turned out to be real, that would be cool. I do like the idea that ghosts aren't disembodied consciousnesses floating around after death, but sort of echoes of people that repeat like a recording. Like if all of time is happening at once and we're only able to perceive it on a linear path, maybe sometimes there is a bit of bleed and we catch a glimpse of the past.

Or like Jacques Vallée wrote about that all paranormal phenomena are the same thing, some form of intelligence from another dimension or plane of existence that can only interact with us by taking forms that our minds create for them. It's why UFOs take the form of the most advanced form of technology we can imagine, giving us stories of craft from the 1800s that look like steampunk airships and stories from ancient Japan with a craft that looks like two boats sandwiched together. So UFOs, ghosts, Bigfoot, and elves are all the same thing, which could explain high strangeness like seeing Bigfoot walk out of a UFO or experience poltergeist activity after an alien abduction. It's not coming from other planets, it's always been here and all around us. We just can't see it most of the time or we ignore it.
 
I've seen some weird shit, one was a shadowy orb floating at about head height in the middle of the night. But I've done enough hallucinogens to know that the human brain can just make shit up under the right conditions. Our sense of reality can be very fragile, a lot more than we really like to think about.

Yes. Firsthand perception is not proof, because there are countless ways our minds can fool us or we can misinterpret what we thought we saw. That's why hearsay and anecdotal testimony aren't admissible in court and aren't sufficient evidence for science. Any observation must be repeatable or verifiable by independent observers before it can be trusted to reflect objective reality.

There was one time in my youth when I distinctly remembered coming downstairs, opening the fridge, and finding pulpy orange juice in the pitcher, only to be assured when I mentioned it later that we only had pulp-free orange juice. I was absolutely certain of the reality of what I'd seen and sensed, but the physical evidence showed it must have been a dream or hallucination of some kind. Which is weird, because I never sleep during the day, and have never had another hallucination as far as I know.

As Sherlock Holmes said once or twice, one shouldn't consider a supernatural explanation for a thing unless all possible natural explanations have been ruled out. If you're in a creepy old house and you hear weird moans, the doors open by themselves, and you see blurry shapes hovering in your vision, it's probably just inaudible subsonics vibrating the house and your eyes.
 
My experience was with a group, and we pretty thoroughly examined the situation and couldn't find a logical explanation.
 
This is not aimed at any particular show in scifi but why do some shows find anything remotely spiritual hard to write, either ignore, ir try to explain rather than just let things be what they appear to be?
I have the opposite problem—it feels like more often than not, most television series (that I’ve seen) tend to present the supernatural as either possibly real or actually real, even when they are (nominally) non-fantasy shows. As someone who doesn’t believe in such, I personally find this pietistic at best and dishonest at worst, though I recognize that others have different views.

(I mean, there are times when it just really works well for the story; I get that. The final scene of Homicide: Life on the Street‘s post-series TV-movie moved me to tears. But I really respected TNG’s “Who Watches the Watchers”, and I wish the position presented there was more widespread.)
 
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