some Star Trek III: TSFS Plot Contrivances

[sonak]

Greetings. While recently viewing TSFS again, I had some new thoughts on certain parts of the story, three to be specific. I shall attempt to explain why I think they're contrivances for the purposes of plot convenience.



1. The whole premise of the Enterprise crew going rogue

-this one might deserve a whole thread by itself, but I don't understand why the crew needed to steal the Enterprise and go against Starfleet to go to the Genesis planet. First, remember that Vulcan is a very influential member of the Federation. Sarek is the ambassador to the Federation, and knows all about the situation with Spock's katra. If he requested that Kirk be allowed to go and gives the reason why, shouldn't this be good enough? Sarek, Kirk, and his crew are all legends within the Federation, I don't see why they'd be turned down, especially if you consider a somewhat similar scenario in "Amok Time," where T'Pau used her influence to allow the UFP to overlook a personal need of Spock's that conflicted with certain orders. Kirk only tries to persuade ONE admiral to let him go, and that's it. No further attempts.

I think that without the whole "stealing the enterprise" segment, we end up with a rather short plot. Basically they'd go to the Genesis Planet, fight the Klingon Bird-of-prey, fly to Vulcan and that's it. The whole "ooh, Kirk and crew have gone rogue!" makes it more cinematic.


2. Why doesn't USS Grissom raise its shields or at least fire on the decloaked bird-of-prey?

-there's enough time that goes by that Esteban says "oh my God!" AND starts evasive manuvers, yet doesn't think to say "raise shields!" or "fire photon torpedoes!" I know it's a science vessel, but it's not defenseless, is it?


3. After Kirk realizes that the Enterprise's shields have overloaded, he doesn't make the decision to finish off the bird-of-prey.

-I know he doesn't want to kill them originally, but at that point, the bird-of-prey had already committed an act of aggression and the Enterprise had already severely damaged by the bird-of-prey and was now defenseless. At that moment, his priority was taking out the bird-of-prey before it could fire on the suddenly defenseless Enterprise. A few more torpedoes would've done it.


Am I off-base on these points? Have I overlooked something?


I hope you are all having a great day.

 

[Roboturner913]

Greetings. While recently viewing TSFS again, I had some new thoughts on certain parts of the story, three to be specific. I shall attempt to explain why I think they're contrivances for the purposes of plot convenience.



1. The whole premise of the Enterprise crew going rogue

-this one might deserve a whole thread by itself, but I don't understand why the crew needed to steal the Enterprise and go against Starfleet to go to the Genesis planet. First, remember that Vulcan is a very influential member of the Federation. Sarek is the ambassador to the Federation, and knows all about the situation with Spock's katra. If he requested that Kirk be allowed to go and gives the reason why, shouldn't this be good enough? Sarek, Kirk, and his crew are all legends within the Federation, I don't see why they'd be turned down, especially if you consider a somewhat similar scenario in "Amok Time," where T'Pau used her influence to allow the UFP to overlook a personal need of Spock's that conflicted with certain orders. Kirk only tries to persuade ONE admiral to let him go, and that's it. No further attempts.

I think that without the whole "stealing the enterprise" segment, we end up with a rather short plot. Basically they'd go to the Genesis Planet, fight the Klingon Bird-of-prey, fly to Vulcan and that's it. The whole "ooh, Kirk and crew have gone rogue!" makes it more cinematic.


2. Why doesn't USS Grissom raise its shields or at least fire on the decloaked bird-of-prey?

-there's enough time that goes by that Esteban says "oh my God!" AND starts evasive manuvers, yet doesn't think to say "raise shields!" or "fire photon torpedoes!" I know it's a science vessel, but it's not defenseless, is it?


3. After Kirk realizes that the Enterprise's shields have overloaded, he doesn't make the decision to finish off the bird-of-prey.

-I know he doesn't want to kill them originally, but at that point, the bird-of-prey had already committed an act of aggression and the Enterprise had already severely damaged by the bird-of-prey and was now defenseless. At that moment, his priority was taking out the bird-of-prey before it could fire on the suddenly defenseless Enterprise. A few more torpedoes would've done it.


Am I off-base on these points? Have I overlooked something?


I hope you are all having a great day.

Havent seen TSFS in a while so I may be off a little. To address the points.

1. Yes, it was obviously intended to raise the drama. However, at the same time you have the fleet admiral telling Kirk that Genesis has become a whirlwind of controversy. The Klingons are afraid that it can be turned into a weapon against them. Having Kirk and the Enterprise (their greatest enemies) gallavanting around Genesis can't be a good idea, diplomatically speaking.

2. It's very likely that Esteban has no combat experience whatsoever. As the captain of a survey vessel he is probably a lifelong science officer. Also it is very possible the Grissom was unarmed. Either that or so lightly armed he knew their only chance was to attempt escape.

3. I could be wrong but at that point wasn't the automation system knocked out? Rendering the ship unable to fire or do anything else. Again I could be wrong, haven't seen the movie in a while.

I don't disagree with these things are are plot contrivances, but you'll see that in any flick. At least in this one they are marginally reasonable. As opposed to say, going back in time to pick up some humpback whales and hoping like hell they tell this probe what to go do with itself.

 

[sonak]

You may be right about the automation system issue-I thought it was just supposed to be the shields not the weapons that were affected, but I might have misunderstood.


As to the "Genesis planet as political controversy," I understand why that would be the case, but what Kirk was trying to do with Spock was apolitical and unconnected to the controversy. They could've even explained to the Klingons what they were doing, to show that it wasn't a threatening act.


As to your last point, this thread wasn't meant to be about bashing TSFS. I think it's a good film, I just wanted to address these plot issues.

 

[UssGlenn]

even assuming that they couldn't use Sareks influence to get approval to go, why did they need to take the Enterprise? That's never made clear but we can make some educated guesses.
option 1: hire a ship. McCoy tries and fails but his attempt was very ham-fisted. More likely the group just didn't want to involve outsiders in the mission, it introduces an unknown element.
option 2: buy a ship. only thing stopping this is if they don't have the funds to do it, or aren't able to get a loan. I'm assuming the Federation has a money based economy, even if they don't use cash.

so why use the Enterprise? could it merely be a speed issue? anything else they take would be slower and thus able to be caught and stopped before arriving?

 

[Xerxes1979]

The automation system was knocked out AFTER Kruge ordered emergency power and fired a photon.

The shields never worked, so yes Kirk should have finished the Klingons.


(On Edit) The photon tubes might have been empty, seeing as the port side was destroyed in Wrath of Khan. How many shots did Chekov shoot in the Mutura nebula? I think only two or three shots max.

 

[Timo]

1) certainly makes Starfleet look and sound like an arch-conservative organization. Which is pretty plausible, come to think of it, as it is after all a military one. In "Amok Time", T'Pau saved Kirk's bacon after Kirk had violated Starfleet orders, and all players seemed to realize that Kirk would never have been able to ensure Spock's well-being without walking over Starfleet. In ST3, Vulcan influence (in this case Sarek's, who seems to be a lesser player than T'Pau) would also be most useful in mopping up afterwards.

2) doesn't sound like a plot contrivance at all. The plot involved a Federation science ship being destroyed by a Klingon warship: this would have happened quite regardless of what commands the CO of the science ship gave.

However, I don't see any reason to think that the Grissom failed to raise shields, or at least that Captain Esteban failed to order them raised. It's the kind of behavior we can assume, just as we can assume our heroes use the toilet every now and then despite the camera always looking the other way at such times. After all, other episodes establish that shields can be found on virtually all types of vessel and that they are raised in situations like this.

Naturally, we missed the line, because the camera had better things to show at the time - namely, the Klingon aggressors preparing for their dastardly deed.

From the treknological point of view, though, it is well established that it takes a few seconds from keypress for the shields to become effective. There's a very explicit 13.5 second down-up-again cycle in ST5, for example. Perhaps the shields of the Grissom might have been of greater help had they been fully raised? I sort of doubt it, though, as this was a clear-cut battle between a helpless victim ship and a powerful predator.

3) is not clear-cut. Automation going down is the reason the shields don't respond. It also prevents the Enterprise from firing back with phasers, and can well be argued to be the reason she cannot fire back with torpedoes, either (although we could also argue that torpedoes require torpedo crews for reloading and repeated fire, automation or no automation).

However, this does not explain why Kirk wouldn't immediately order weapons to be fired against the Klingons. He spends a couple of crucial seconds just being worried, at which time the Klingons get a shot in, and all hope is lost. Is this a plot contrivance? I don't think it's even an unusual occurrence within the Trek universe. We don't see split-second responses in other combat situations, either - Kirk wouldn't have that sort of reflexes, he'd have ones honed on the sort of fighting where the shields take impacts and give you time to plan for a response.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[sonak]

1) certainly makes Starfleet look and sound like an arch-conservative organization. Which is pretty plausible, come to think of it, as it is after all a military one. In "Amok Time", T'Pau saved Kirk's bacon after Kirk had violated Starfleet orders, and all players seemed to realize that Kirk would never have been able to ensure Spock's well-being without walking over Starfleet. In ST3, Vulcan influence (in this case Sarek's, who seems to be a lesser player than T'Pau) would also be most useful in mopping up afterwards.

2) doesn't sound like a plot contrivance at all. The plot involved a Federation science ship being destroyed by a Klingon warship: this would have happened quite regardless of what commands the CO of the science ship gave.

However, I don't see any reason to think that the Grissom failed to raise shields, or at least that Captain Esteban failed to order them raised. It's the kind of behavior we can assume, just as we can assume our heroes use the toilet every now and then despite the camera always looking the other way at such times. After all, other episodes establish that shields can be found on virtually all types of vessel and that they are raised in situations like this.

Naturally, we missed the line, because the camera had better things to show at the time - namely, the Klingon aggressors preparing for their dastardly deed.

From the treknological point of view, though, it is well established that it takes a few seconds from keypress for the shields to become effective. There's a very explicit 13.5 second down-up-again cycle in ST5, for example. Perhaps the shields of the Grissom might have been of greater help had they been fully raised? I sort of doubt it, though, as this was a clear-cut battle between a helpless victim ship and a powerful predator.

3) is not clear-cut. Automation going down is the reason the shields don't respond. It also prevents the Enterprise from firing back with phasers, and can well be argued to be the reason she cannot fire back with torpedoes, either (although we could also argue that torpedoes require torpedo crews for reloading and repeated fire, automation or no automation).

However, this does not explain why Kirk wouldn't immediately order weapons to be fired against the Klingons. He spends a couple of crucial seconds just being worried, at which time the Klingons get a shot in, and all hope is lost. Is this a plot contrivance? I don't think it's even an unusual occurrence within the Trek universe. We don't see split-second responses in other combat situations, either - Kirk wouldn't have that sort of reflexes, he'd have ones honed on the sort of fighting where the shields take impacts and give you time to plan for a response.

Timo Saloniemi

I have to disagree with your view that it's obvious that Grissom raised shields off-screen. The Grissom was destroyed very quickly in that battle, the bird-of-prey fires only one or two torpedoes if I remember correctly. I can't imagine that any vessel's shields would be so weak as to allow that, because otherwise what would be the point of having the shields in the first place?


As to Kirk's delays in the battle with Kruge, between this and the not raising shields in TWOK, the early movies show him to have horrible judgment when it comes to direct ship-to-ship battles.

 

[Timo]

Only one torpedo is fired, yes. But it's pretty realistic that the Grissom would be unable to survive it. A single shell from a battleship's gun would assuredly sink the Calypso, would cripple the USS Cole, but would not necessarily put the USS New Jersey out of operation; it makes perfect sense today for civilian ships to be less protected than military ones, and for military ones to have varying degrees of protection. Why not in the future?

Shields incapable of resisting Klingon torpedoes might still protect the Grissom from the phasers of a pirate skiff, or from meteor swarms.

If anything, DS9 is the annoyingly unrealistic show in featuring space battles where the small runabouts shrug off multiple shots from dedicated warships. In "The Die is Cast" or "Treachery, Faith and the Great River", this can at least be attributed to the possibility that the Jem'Hadar were ordered to hold back because there was a Founder aboard... In most other occasions, this is not an option. At least "Armageddon Game" plausibly shows and tells that a midsize warship can finish off a runabout with first shot.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Pauln6]

Only one torpedo is fired, yes. But it's pretty realistic that the Grissom would be unable to survive it. A single shell from a battleship's gun would assuredly sink the Calypso, would cripple the USS Cole, but would not necessarily put the USS New Jersey out of operation; it makes perfect sense today for civilian ships to be less protected than military ones, and for military ones to have varying degrees of protection. Why not in the future?

Shields incapable of resisting Klingon torpedoes might still protect the Grissom from the phasers of a pirate skiff, or from meteor swarms.

If anything, DS9 is the annoyingly unrealistic show in featuring space battles where the small runabouts shrug off multiple shots from dedicated warships. In "The Die is Cast" or "Treachery, Faith and the Great River", this can at least be attributed to the possibility that the Jem'Hadar were ordered to hold back because there was a Founder aboard... In most other occasions, this is not an option. At least "Armageddon Game" plausibly shows and tells that a midsize warship can finish off a runabout with first shot.

Timo Saloniemi

Yeah, if Shields are powered by warp engines it stands to reason that small ships with smaller warp engines are going to have weaker shields. This would be offset somewhat by the smaller vessel they have to cover but considering the warp power curve, the difference could potentially be huge.

 

[Anticitizen]

Concerning point #3:

187 INT. ENTERPRISE BRIDGE - FAVORING CHEKOV 187

He shows growing concern.

CHEKOV
Sir, the shields... Non-
responsive.

KIRK
Scotty...?

SCOTTY
The automation system's
overloaded. I didn't expect to
take us into combat, ya know...!

Looks like the Enterprise's firing of the two torpedoes was enough to overload the automation center, making further action impossible. Note, this was right before the BoP returned fire.

 

[Ssosmcin]

I don't have an issue with Grissom being obliterated with one lucky shot. With shields down, a torpedo impacting the warp core could send the unshielded ship into Space Heaven.

Only one torpedo is fired, yes. But it's pretty realistic that the Grissom would be unable to survive it. A single shell from a battleship's gun would assuredly sink the Calypso, would cripple the USS Cole, but would not necessarily put the USS New Jersey out of operation; it makes perfect sense today for civilian ships to be less protected than military ones, and for military ones to have varying degrees of protection. Why not in the future?

I don't think that works here. These are starships. Just because one is a science vessel doesn't mean they make it flimsy of with little girlie shields. They still have to withstand space and all its inherent dangers. A research vessel would probably only differ in armament, with a smaller compliment of photons and the like. Considering the number of enemies Starfleet seems to have, it wouldn't make sense to give the science guys an aluminum ship, so to speak. If you want to bring TNG into it, the Pasteur withstood multiple disruptor shots. I'd say that the most Federation starships (other than specific battle ships I guess) are constructed with the same structural integrity, but the level of firepower they pack depends on what their duties are.

It was established that Esteban was an asshole and his lack of competence left him open to destruction. Unraised shields + lucky shot = no more Grissom.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

Genesis was like something SF wanted to bury.. even if Sarek himself talked about it, he'd probably be forced to be quiet. Sf wanted to keep it under wraps.

 

[Anticitizen]

Here's an excerpt from the original script concerning the Grissom scene. Note that there are some slight changes.

BACK TO BRIDGE - GRISSSOM (INTERCUT WITH PLANET & BIRD 92
OF PREY)

ESTEBAN
Red alert! Raise shields!

SAAVIK (V.O.)
Captain, what's happening?!

ESTEBAN
We are under attack! Stand by for
evasive -- stand by for --

93 INT. BIRD OF PREY 93

KRUGE
(Fire!)

94 EXT. SPACE - GRISSOM F.G., BIRD OF PREY, CLOSE B.G. - 94
(ILM)

The BIRD FIRES A Klingon PHOTON TORPEDO which WHOOSHES
the relatively short distance to the peaceful Grissom
and, shockingly -- blows her to bits with one shot.

95 THE GENESIS PLANET - SAAVIK, DAVID - THE BOY 95

SAAVIK
Captain!... Come in, Captain!

96 INT. BRIDGE - BIRD OF PREY 96

Kruge turns to his gunner.

KRUGE
(I told you, engine station
only!!)

Kruge's BEAST GROWLS.

GUNNER
(A fortunate mistake, sir...)

Note that the writers intended for the Grissom to be destroyed in one blow due to the 'lucky shot' the incompetent Klingon gunner delivered - with the shields up. The actual line where Esteban orders shields to be raised is cut, but that doesn't mean he didn't deliver it - that scene is cutting between simultaneous events on the planet, on the Grissom, and on the Bird of Prey. We see the BOP decloak, Esteban says 'oh my God,' the camera cuts back to Saavik on the planet, and when it cuts back to Grissom, red alert has already been called offscreen, so we can assume the shields order was, too.

We don't know what the nature of the weapon the Bird of Prey used was. Since the antagonists in TSFS were originally supposed to be Romulans, and the BoP was supposed to be an updated Romulan BoP from 'Balance of Terror', I like to think it used a similar - or the same - weapon to the devastating plasma torpedo used in that episode. And, apparently, its devastating effects can be mitigated if applied correctly - which the Klingon gunner obviously didn't. Perhaps a narrow focus on energy could limit the damage to a targeted area, and the gunner that destroyed the Grissom fired a too-wide-angle charge.

In Balance of Terror, the Romulans had to decloak because firing the weapon took so much power. This is in line with the delay between decloaking and firing when the Enterprise meets the BOP - 'Klingon bird of prey, sir! She's arming torpedoes!' If the torpedo was just a missile in a tube, it'd already be ready to fire. Apparently there's a power-build up delay, there. There was when Grissom was attacked, too. To fire a weapon that punches through the shields may require that sort of build-up.

It certainly wasn't the same type of torpedo used by the Klingons in TMP.

 

[Timo]

The Klingon BoP has always fired what looks like a fuzzy green bolt (except in ST6, where the whole point of firing torpedoes was that they should be mistaken for Federation ones) that does very little structural damage. The torps do minimal damage even when the skipper by all rights would want to deliver maximum lethal power, such as is ST:GEN and in the Kirk/Kruge fight of ST3:TSfS. OTOH, the Klingons clearly expect the torpedo to only damage, not destroy, in the Esteban/Kruge fight and when Klaa fires at the Enterprise inside the Great Barrier.

It would make sense to assume that the BoP normally carries a nonlethal type of torpedo, either because she is incapable of packing heftier ordnance, or because the ship type is optimized for commerce raiding (a bit like its real-world inspiration, the German submarine) and often takes live prizes. For lethal work, the ship switches to her wingtip disruptors, like in the Kruge/Valkris fight of ST3, or when Klaa got less sporty and more businesslike towards the end of ST5.

The loss of the Grissom would then not require a hapless gunner predictably botching a highly demanding job and unfairly getting punished for it, but would involve a freak accident where a supposedly nonlethal shot turned lethal (as so often happens in the real world).

In Balance of Terror, the Romulans had to decloak because firing the weapon took so much power.

We don't really know if this was the reason. Another reason might be that a cloaked ship is blind, too, save for an extremely vague visual view of her target. Actual targeting scanners will have to be locked to target after the cloak is dropped, or else the shot will go wild - and they cannot be locked when the cloak is up, because they would glow like a beacon on the victim's sensors.

Chang in ST6 might have chosen to fire blind from point-blank ranges, because that's what his original mission of crippling Gorkon's cruiser called for. He would then be handicapped in his fight with Kirk, just like any assassin packing a Derringer would be at a disadvantage if forced into an open gunfight with the Colt- or Winchester-carrying hero.

It certainly wasn't the same type of torpedo used by the Klingons in TMP.

This might be because the battle cruiser and the BoP are intended for different tactical applications. Or then because the BoP is too small to carry a "conventional" photon torpedo - although ENT would tend to disprobe that idea - or because the BoP is too weak to provide her (as such standard-sized) torpedoes with a big destructive charge. The latter might be true of antimatter torps just as easily as with those Romulan plasma weapons; a single torp could be loaded with an arbitrarily big antimatter charge, but loading the next one might be slow going if your antimatter system (read: your main power train) is small and weak.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Anticitizen]

In Balance of Terror, the Romulans had to decloak because firing the weapon took so much power.

We don't really know if this was the reason. Another reason might be that a cloaked ship is blind, too, save for an extremely vague visual view of her target.

That's true, but we did get the corroborative statements by the Romulans that they were low on power - 'only enough to get home', if I recall.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Chang in ST6 might have chosen to fire blind from point-blank ranges, because that's what his original mission of crippling Gorkon's cruiser called for. He would then be handicapped in his fight with Kirk,

No, he didn't remember they had a little target screen which was tracking the Enterprise and later Excelsior and he seemed preety accurate for someone firing on a moving target while blind, also the characters seemed pretty suprised about the klingons being able to fire while cloaked added to the fact that Chang's ship was a prototype for a new version that can fire while cloaked not the standard version with him just doing something different, plus it may have been a power thing just becuase when you think about it cloaks probably draw a lot of power as they make the ship invisible to visual and other sensors.

 

[Christopher]

Sarek, Kirk, and his crew are all legends within the Federation, I don't see why they'd be turned down...

Is there really any canonical evidence for the claim that they're "legends" at this time? There's a tendency in fandom to assume that the Trek characters are as famous and popular in-universe as they are to us, the audience, but one should be wary of making assumptions. All that had ever been stated canonically about Sarek prior to/including this movie is that he was a Vulcan ambassador who was Spock's father. TSFS establishes that he's important enough to have seen the Genesis information, but nothing beyond that. He had the President's ear by TUC, but it's only in his TNG appearances that he was treated as a figure of legend.

As for Kirk and crew, it stands to reason that they'd be famous for saving the Earth from V'Ger, but it's certainly a stretch to say that they're "legends" so extraordinarily acclaimed that the government would just give them anything they asked, at least at this point. I think the emergence of "legendary" status would've come in the ensuing years, after Kirk & crew saved Earth from a second mysterious probe and then saved the Federation president from assassination.

Kirk only tries to persuade ONE admiral to let him go, and that's it. No further attempts.

Not just one admiral -- the commanding admiral of Starfleet. Who's going to overrule him?

As to the "Genesis planet as political controversy," I understand why that would be the case, but what Kirk was trying to do with Spock was apolitical and unconnected to the controversy. They could've even explained to the Klingons what they were doing, to show that it wasn't a threatening act.

Politics isn't about fact, it's about appearances. Genesis was creating great controversy as a potential doomsday weapon. It would be political suicide for Starfleet to send anything other than a science vessel to study the planet. And the Klingons certainly wouldn't have just trusted Kirk's claims that their mission was simply to retrieve a friend's body for burial. Klingons don't value the bodies of their dead, so it's not a reason they would understand or believe. They'd assume it was a cover for a more military purpose.

so why use the Enterprise? could it merely be a speed issue? anything else they take would be slower and thus able to be caught and stopped before arriving?

Quite possibly.

Besides, they couldn't legally go to Genesis in any ship. If they hired or bought a ship, they'd still have to file a flight plan, and if they filed a false flight plan and went to a forbidden system, they'd still be breaking the law. So if they were going to be committing a crime anyway, why not just swipe their favorite ship?

A more serious suggestion: Scotty had just, by a convenient coincidence, completed automating the Enterprise (perhaps so that it could be operated even after much of its cadet crew had been wounded, killed, or transferred off), so that made it possible for a few people to operate it. Any other ship capable of being manned by a 5-person crew might have lacked the power and speed to make it to Genesis in time or to elude the blockade.

Just because one is a science vessel doesn't mean they make it flimsy of with little girlie shields.

There's an idiom we really need to rethink. Take it from someone who grew up with a big sister -- little girlies are at least as tough as little boys.

They still have to withstand space and all its inherent dangers.

True, but if basic navigational deflectors and radiation shields were sufficient to deflect high-yield antimatter torpedoes, there'd be no need for tactical shields. Presumably the "inherent dangers of space" defenses are always engaged the whole time a ship is, well, in space. So the fact that they need to raise shields in combat suggests they need something more.

And yeah, the script did say it was a "lucky shot." Maybe there's a design flaw in the Oberth class, or was at that point (since the class is still in use 80 years later).

 

[Silvercrest]

And the Klingons certainly wouldn't have just trusted Kirk's claims that their mission was simply to retrieve a friend's body for burial. Klingons don't value the bodies of their dead, so it's not a reason they would understand or believe. They'd assume it was a cover for a more military purpose.

They might have accepted it if someone had explained that this was the equivalent of helping the dead get into Sto'vo'kor. If you think about it, that's basically what Sarek is requesting.

Not that anyone of that era would have tried that tactic, even if they knew. (If we dismiss Vulcan mysticism, what do we think of Klingon mysticism?)

Me, I'm more annoyed by the fact that there's no onscreen reason why they have to go retrieve Spock's body at all. From what I can see, they should just take McCoy straight to Vulcan so T'Lar can dump the katra in a jar. Yes, Christopher, in other threads you've given valid justifications for why both body and soul might both have to come home. But none of that is discussed in the movie.

 

[BillJ]

Kirk only tries to persuade ONE admiral to let him go, and that's it. No further attempts.

Not just one admiral -- the commanding admiral of Starfleet. Who's going to overrule him?

The fact that he has the personal ear of the Commander of Starfleet probably says something about what Starfleet thinks of Kirk.

 

[Therin of Andor]

The fact that he has the personal ear of the Commander of Starfleet probably says something about what Starfleet thinks of Kirk.

An Earth-based Starfleet admiral wouldn't have the "personal ear" of another Earth-based Starfleet admiral?