• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Shatner Slams E.U. Censors Proposal to Ban Star Trek’s “To Boldly Go Where No MAN Has Gone Before "

And in what world does declaring a behavior illegal or criminal eradicate that behavior? Might as well legalize … oh, I don’t know … theft, because in hundreds of years of being illegal it hasn’t eradicated the behavior.

Or am I reading you wrong?
Completely wrong.

Nowhere did I say that banning hate speech is not a good idea. I ask, what do we do next with the people who have these beliefs that we would argue strongly against? In my opinion, and based on studies that I have read, building relationships with individuals is were I would start, even with believes I don't agree with.


For me, and the education I've had, it's all about what do you replace it with. If I tell you "stop believing that bad thing" and I don't offer an alternative then it's like telling someone to loose weight but only giving them a list of what not to eat.
Thank you, that's a beginning. Unfortunately, as usual, (at least some of) the scholarly articles are pay-walled.
Odd. None of them popped like that for me. Sorry for that.
 
Completely wrong.

Nowhere did I say that banning hate speech is not a good idea. I ask, what do we do next with the people who have these beliefs that we would argue strongly against? In my opinion, and based on studies that I have read, building relationships with individuals is were I would start, even with believes I don't agree with.
Gotcha. What I would say to that is: Yes, there’s hundreds of things than can and should be done to make people with harmful views change their minds and behaviors, not the least of which is probably a good education system and a strong democracy. But the immediate measure should always be to protect groups that are discriminated against by these people. To use some hyperbole: It’s well and good if you want to talk to a neo-nazi, trying to make them see the error of their ways and convince them to not do neo-nazi stuff. But it’s probably a better idea to first get their hands off your throat. ;)
 
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1368430217712052 --- that's directly on point, but purportedly in the setting of schools and workplaces.
It's cited in https://www.healthaffairs.org/do/10.1377/hpb20200929.601434/ (search "Empirical evidence").
Here's another one. Does contact reduce prejudice or does prejudice reduce contact? A longitudinal test of the contact hypothesis among majority and minority groups in three european countries. (apa.org)

How I miss being in grad school and having full access to scholarly databases.
Gotcha. What I would say to that is: Yes, there’s hundreds of things than can and should be done to make people with harmful views change their minds and behaviors, not the least of which is probably a good education system and a strong democracy. But the immediate measure should always be to protect groups that are discriminated against by these people. To use some hyperbole: It’s well and good if you want to talk to a neo-nazi, trying to make them see the error of their ways and convince them to not do neo-nazi stuff. But it’s probably a better idea to first get their hands off your throat. ;)
As I noted, I was specifically talking about beliefs, not any incitement to violence or acts of violence, which are already illegal.
 
Their house, their rules. If you don’t like it, you can always go elsewhere.

Nowhere else to discuss Star Trek. There might be other BBS's, but they're likely as not to be ghost towns. In any case, given that I've managed to reach the penultimate (standard) rank on this site, I've obviously learned to live within the limits.

Not everything is censorship, you know. Sometimes it's just people enforcing the clubhouse rules.

First, the clubhouse rules that I agreed to say nothing about expressing varied social and political viewpoints. They ban flaming and trolling. And I have nothing against that. I know firsthand what a persistent troll can do to a community.

Second, I support the free exchange of viewpoints. There are limits, you notice I didn't say anything when the OP took a hike. But the choice of "conform to our beliefs or face the consequences" leads nowhere good, whether it's a community standard or an actual law.
 
Got it. The contact hypothesis. Thanks.

There's a Wikipedia article on it with links, which looks like a reasonable place to jump off from.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contact_hypothesis

According to it, there are a number of conditions (four) under which "intergroup contact will reduce prejudice." The section on "null findings and gaps in research" also indicates the need for more study and refinement of the hypothesis.
 
That said, I oppose hate speech.
You know what? While I'm not supportive of banning it legally, I hate it too.

However, I think the "hate speech" panic button is like Voyager's Big Red Reset Button: it gets hit too hard, too often, and a better alternative often exists.
 
First, the clubhouse rules that I agreed to say nothing about expressing varied social and political viewpoints. They ban flaming and trolling. And I have nothing against that. I know firsthand what a persistent troll can do to a community.

So first of all, I should mention that as thorough as the rules page tries to be, there are long-standing rules that are not explicitly spelled out there. Just as one example, there is nothing in the rules page that says you can't talk about who you have on ignore, but it is a rule, and you can get warned for it. Admittedly, this does sometimes cause confusion for newer members, as well as probably angering the "rules lawyers". So just keep in mind that there is precedent built up over time, that might not be codified.

And that inevitably leads to people complaining that they should be allowed to be homophobic, because the rules don't specifically forbid it. But that's not the way it works.

But to my main point...

First, the clubhouse rules that I agreed to say nothing about expressing varied social and political viewpoints.

Second, I support the free exchange of viewpoints.

But the choice of "conform to our beliefs or face the consequences" leads nowhere good, whether it's a community standard or an actual law.

I think the main issue here, is that we have an extremely significant (perhaps insurmountable?) difference of opinion as to what constitutes a valid "political viewpoint".

From my point of view, I would say emphatically that we do not issue warnings or otherwise punish posters for having a different political opinion. And if that were in fact happening, I suspect that the mod in question would not retain their moderator position for very long. Just to give an example of what I'm talking about: I am a left-leaning Canadian who is very anti-gun. But people come into this forum and occasionally talk about their guns, and what gun-related hobbies they participate in. You yourself, if I am remembering correctly, used to wax poetic about your Glock back when you first joined. (And yes, I had to look up what that even was at the time! :lol: ) If mods were going around punishing for different political viewpoints, then one might suspect I would have a history of warning people for being pro-gun. But that doesn't happen. Now, I am within my rights to argue about gun laws, or post a lament about the prevalence of gun culture in the US, or whatever, but I don't have a right to issue warnings against people just because I disagree with them. And in fact, doing so would ultimately end up getting me in trouble.

Now, of course, if, in the course of a pro-gun post, the poster flames someone, or trolls the other members, or something, then yes, I can issue a warning... because they broke the rules, not because they're pro-gun. And alternatively, if an anti-gun poster also flamed someone, I would be expected to warn them as well, even though I may agree with their standpoint on the gun topic.

So this whole "conform to our beliefs or face the consequences" thing you are railing against, isn't happening.

But as I mentioned, the difference seems to be what we consider a valid political viewpoint. What I said earlier, and which ended up causing a lot of back and forth in this thread, was that people's humanity, and their right to exist and participate in society cannot be up for "debate". That's because these rights are fundamental--or inalienable, as I believe you Americans are fond of saying. That means that there are no circumstances under which these rights should ever be withheld or rescinded.

So, from this perspective, any post that advocates for removing these fundamental rights or for dehumanizing members of the group in question, is by definition not just a different "political viewpoint" or "contrary opinion" that is worthy of respect and continuing discourse. It is, rather, simply an attack on the community in question. Or, in basic terms, it is simple hatred.

And no, we don't allow that on the board.

I gather from your posts, that from your perspective, that this is just a difference in political views, like whether the budget should be balanced vs. running a deficit, or whether a carbon tax should be implemented, or what have you. And that is why you feel persecuted for expressing your "opinions". But you don't seem to see that by expressing such opinions, you would be the one doing the persecuting.

We have members from all walks of life here on the board, including many different minority groups. They come here to talk Star Trek or whatever with other fans. Why should they have to endure reading posts that call their very humanity into question, or refute their right to exist as they are? On the rules page, it mentions that the rules are in place to keep it fun here. Being exposed to racism, or homophobia, or what have you, is not fun. You lament the curtailing of your speech rights (which, I might add, are not really being curtailed--as stated, you can say what you want, but then you also get the consequences for doing so), but what of the rights of others to come here and participate as themselves, without being subjected to all the discrimination that's out there in the rest of the world?

So yes, our house rules prohibit discrimination and bigotry. And I am all for it. A club that allowed rampant bigotry doesn't sound like a club I would want to be a part of.

Apologies, this got very long. I don't usually write so much all at once. But this is something I feel strongly about, and I also wanted to try to give you some insight into what goes into moderating here. I know that others are much more eloquent about these topics than I, but hopefully I was able to communicate my point. I don't expect to change your mind, but I hope it at least opened your eyes a little to the opposite perspective.
 
Apologies, this got very long.
- You have nothing to apologize for. You said what you felt needed saying. And the fact that you used civility and reason instead of bullying or abusive remarks shows that whatever the challenges of moderating, you handle the job well.
- In the end, our worlds are not as far apart as you think they are. I most certainly understand that we're all human, assuming MiB is fiction (:eek:). And rest assured, the only people I think "shouldn't exist" are ones who pose a threat. I do not apologize for owning a gun (don't have the Glock anymore though) or for being willing to defend myself or others. Given that phasers are a fixture among Star Trek characters, I think that's a shared belief.
- I am likewise a firm supporter of human rights. However, when two groups of people come into conflict over a given issue, I will make my own decision about who I think is right. If that gets me accused of bigotry, so be it.
- Regarding not permitting certain remarks, I accept that we must agree to disagree. There's still plenty of Trek stuff that we can have fun with.
 
Being a Mod is both extremely challenging and extremely exhausting. I am surprised how long you've been able to do it without freaking out, Avro :) I think I would have given in to the temptation to klick the ban button a hundred times in all these years.

My POV is that it is perfectly normal to disagree. It'd be a boring world, and one at a full standstill, if there weren't different opinions. I believe that is something everyone here agrees to.
However, civilized people ought to be able to discuss in a matter-of-fact style without getting personal, violent, insulting or generally hitting below the belt line. That ability is imo what makes the difference between a moron and a decent poster.
Ever thought of where the word "gentleman/gentlewoman" is derived from? Or gentility? From being gentle - i.e. non-violent - to each other. And that's what I expect to find in a good discussion.
Convincing someone by being silver-tongued is more difficult and challenging than forcing your opinion on others by threats or by being the one who shouts loudest, but it certainly is more satisfactorily. Duelling with intelligence is so much more interesting than duelling with bad language.

As for the original topic of this thread: ever thought of how insulting ist is to females to be called woman, i. e. womb-man? Being reduced only to your usefulness in propagation? How would men feel if they were called penis-people? This is what is behind the European recommendations for gender-neutral speech.
This is one of the occasions where I am really proud of my native language: we have perfectly unrelated and neutral words for humans in general, male and female ones (Mensch / Mann / Frau).
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top