Saw Wrath of Khan for the first time today...

[Therin of Andor]

^ Nimoy supposedly did.

Gene Roddenberry had already taken the other side, having sent Susan Sackett on a mission to drop the news of Spock's imminent death at a UK convention, and distancing himself from Bennett's and Nimoy's decision.

 

[BriGuy]

Hey, OP, did you ever watch the TOS show "Space Seed"?

Seeing that could help.

TWoK will always be the best of the Trek movies.

 

[Data Holmes]

BriGuy said:
Hey, OP, did you ever watch the TOS show "Space Seed"?

Seeing that could help.

Indeed.

TWoK will always be the best of the Trek movies.

I'm going to say, that while it is one of the best, it isn't the best.

 

[Maurice]

A film should be able to stand on its own without requiring you to have seen a previous adventure like Space Seed.

As to TWOK being the best movie, that's clearly debatable, as has happened here with some frequency.

Honestly, from my POV it's one of those films that pays lip service to various themes, but the plot isn't really set up to explore them in any meaningful way. Quoting classics of literature is a cheat: instead of having an insight of your own, you borrow the words of others...creating the illusion that your film sound like it's more meaningful than it actually is, because you're trading on the cred of the real giants.

 

[Plum]

Tharpdevenport said:
It wasn't just shocking ... Gene received death threats.

Yea, I remember the special features for ST:II TWoK had Harv Bennet, I believe, talking about the pre-screenings they had done for the film. There was, apparently, an earlier version where Spock dies and it's really sad. There's no flight onto the Genesis Planet as in the version we all see today. I think the "remember" moment might be missing too. The way Harv tells it, people left the pre-screening stunned and sad. Really depressed!

The version we know today gave people an uplift at the end of the movie... which heavily hints Spock will return somehow. Those screenings went much better!

 

[indranee]

well, I was all of 17 and devastated. DEVASTATED!!

I still remember standing in line with many of my classmates. it was a looooooooong line. we took turns to go to the restroom. it was our first participation into active Trekfandom. we weren't old enough to do it during TMP. TWOK was our intro. we laughed, we gasped, we cried. we came out and went to Dairy Queen and hung out and argued and argued and argued about whether Spock was really dead. and if he was, whether he should stay dead. the next year, many of us went to Creation Con in NYC to see Nimoy face a several thou audience. I mean, it's memory, ya know?

we had to wait two whole years after that in order to see it and believe it (that he came back).

so I guess you had to be there to know what this movie means to some us. it's all in the perspective.

sure, maybe TWOK on the whole doesn't hold up as well as some of the others but... BUT... it's got moments that are absolute, pure, unadulterated gold. meyer knew what he was doing. and unlike TMP, he didn't let it lose momentum. I actually love TMP, but I am not going to deny its flaws (just as I won't deny TWOK's).

 

[Messianni]

Therin of Andor said:
^ Nimoy supposedly did.

Gene Roddenberry had already taken the other side, having sent Susan Sackett on a mission to drop the news of Spock's imminent death at a UK convention, and distancing himself from Bennett's and Nimoy's decision.

I remember reading (Star Trek: Movie Memories) that he had done so anonymously and how Bennet/Meyer had to adapt by adding in everyone "dying" during the training simulation. It was a fake-out, of sorts, and led fans on thinking that "oh, so he did die, just not for real" then setting them up for a surprise at the end of the movie.

 

[Bishbot]

The God Thing said:
What the fuck is there to explain? It is effectively like asking somebody to expound in detail upon the manifold reasons why he or she doesn't like to accidentally step in a pile of fresh dogshit.
TGT

I'm sorry TGT, I know I'm wrong, but I can't shake the hilariously possible image of you posting regularly on message boards that everything after TMP sucks ass while secretly watching Endgame for the 47th time and cheering everytime the souped up Voyager blows up another Borg cube real good.

 

[Plum]

^^^
No, no, he does post with regularity and pin-point accuracy. If with, erm, colourful metaphors intermixed. You'll get used to such iron clad visions of Trek. There are charms to this... Trek is rather camillian like, if you think of it's long history in broadcasting. It's easy for one to disregard whole shows and movies and include only others. A personal 'canon'. Which may help with the pain of watching Endgame.

 

[cardinal biggles]

Loading copies of Nemesis into a personal cannon and then setting the fuse would certainly help with my pain.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

TWOK is a good "B" movie. It's not my favorite of the Trek films, but then I don't think there's a single one of them that holds up as an exceptionally good movie.

 

[Unicron]

Out of curiosity, K-Star, had you already seen TOS' "Space Seed" before TWOK?

 

[jimbo1973]

cardinal biggles said:
^Yeah, Spock's death loses some of its emotional impact if you know going in that he'll return for the next four movies and a two-part TNG episode. But in 1982, it was quite shocking, and kept people excited about the next film, because they honestly didn't know what might happen next.

yes..remember in 82..there was no next gen, Ds9, Voyager or Enterpeise.this was it and they killed Spock one of the most popular characters..I remeber my brother said(I was still young and dont remeber). that people were balling thir eyes out when spock died..and we didnt know he was going to come back.I personally love ST2 as you can see from my sig, but everyone is entitled to there own opinion..

 

[Peach Wookiee]

Maybe it's because I lose myself in the movie every time I watch it... I cry... Even though I know what's ultimately going to happen...

 

[Arlo]

I dismiss TNG fans and later who don't know or like TOS, simply because it's not worth trying to explain why it's so good.

K-Star doesn't like TWOK. SO what? Good for him. I love it. Life goes on.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

jimbo1973 said:... that people were balling thir eyes out when spock died..

One of the folks I saw this with on opening night was my writing partner, no trekkie. When Radiated Spock pulls off the glove and slaps his bleeding hand up on the partition in that Vulcan salute, my friend leans over and says "Live long and phospher."

I cracked up, though I thought we might have to flee a lynch mob.

 

[Plum]

^^^
I bet you were necking with some chick in the theatre instead of watching Shindler's List too.

I have a great memory of the movie. Lovely old fashioned theatre, 1982, middle of the climactic ship battle. The film breaks! The audience was so into the movie there is a long silence. A fellow, to the front right, stands and turns to the film booth and says in a clear and deeply threatening tone (the sort where you take the guy seriously); "FIX THE FUCKING FILM."

The theatre laughed and cheered! That poor guy in the film booth! But he got a big cheer when he fixed it in, like, 30 seconds.

 

[Vonstadt]

^^ LoL

 

[BriGuy]

DS9Sega said:
A film should be able to stand on its own without requiring you to have seen a previous adventure like Space Seed.

Is it required? No, not really. Khan and Chekov do us the favor of outlining "the tale" for Capt. Terrell.

As to TWOK being the best movie, that's clearly debatable, as has happened here with some frequency.

Anything can be argued. But in any poll or survey, TWoK will always come out on top of the movies and usually by a long shot.

Honestly, from my POV it's one of those films that pays lip service to various themes, but the plot isn't really set up to explore them in any meaningful way. Quoting classics of literature is a cheat: instead of having an insight of your own, you borrow the words of others...creating the illusion that your film sound like it's more meaningful than it actually is, because you're trading on the cred of the real giants.

And you're entitled to your own POV. Others find meaningful messages and themes in it, such as Kirk coping with aging, death, the loss of his friend, etc.

 

[intrinsical]

I find TWoK to be the most poetic of all the Trek movies. Just about every scene resonates its theme of life, death and rebirth. From the Kobiyashi Maru where the senior crew trains a new crew, to Kirk's birthday gift and McCoy's advice, to Saavik's questions about how to deal with life and death, to the genesis device and genesis cave to the death of Spock. The movie just about covers every major perspective about living and dying.

Thats what I love about TWoK.