Thank you!
Roddenberry and the Biblical Allusions in TOS.
- Thread starter MakeshiftPython
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Thank you!
It's beyond me why you're automatically giving Gene Roddenberry credit for "Who Mourns for Adonais?" when it was Gilbert Ralston who wrote that episode. According to Memory Alpha, Roddenberry came up with the initial premise, but that's it.
Lots of people made Star Trek what it was. It's a fallacy to assume that Roddenberry did everything.
But as the executive producer, what we'd now call the showrunner, he had final approval over what the other writers did, and he wrote the final draft (or at least one of the final drafts) of every script in seasons 1-2. It's not like Gilbert Ralston snuck something past him without his knowledge. If Roddenberry had objected to something in a script, he would've removed it (unless someone above him at the studio or network insisted he keep it in, but even then he'd try to find a way around them to get what he wanted anyway).
What's your source on Roddenberry writing the final draft of every script in seasons 1 & 2, Christopher? I've never heard that before, and it was my understanding that Roddenberry stepped back quite a bit after the first 13 episodes of season 1, when he went from line producer to executive producer of the show. The Memory Alpha entry on Roddenberry says the following:
My understanding is that people like Coon, D.C. Fontana, and John Meredyth Lucas did a lot more of the hands on rewriting in their capacity as writers, producers, story editors and consultants than Roddenberry typically did. I've heard stories about Roddenberry rewriting "Shore Leave" while they were on location at Africa USA and suggesting that the Kelvans transform the crew into dodecahedrons in "By Any Other Name," but I don't recall many other anecdotes about Roddenberry contributing to TOS stories outside of the general premises of episodes.
Yeah, that was the one where I wasn't sure if GR did the final draft. I think maybe Fontana did?
According to Memory Alpha:
"Originally, then-story editor Steven W. Carabatsos the job to rewrite Ellison's script, but his draft was not used. Instead, Ellison agreed to make a rewrite himself, which was again deemed unsuitable. Producer Gene L. Coon also got himself into the rewriting. Finally, the new story editor, D.C. Fontana got the assignment to rewrite Ellison's script and make it suitable for the series. Fontana's draft was then slightly rewritten by Roddenberry to become the final shooting draft. Much of the finished episode is the product of Fontana, who went uncredited (as did all the other writers) for her contribution."
^Okay, thanks.
Nor should they be, at least in a public school, unless it's part of a high school comparative religion course. The idea that teachers could grade students as being either right or wrong on matters of religion is something that has gone on, and is still going on. For a child who is atheist to be reprimanded by a teacher for saying in a Thanksgiving assignment that they're thankful for something that isn't religious (aka Jesus' love or whatever else it was; I'm taking this from an actual post in the agnostic/atheist women group I'm part of on FB) is abhorrent. It's biased, it's unprofessional, and definitely unethical. It's WRONG, and has no place in public schools (presumably everyone in faith-based schools is already on that page so there wouldn't be a reason to reprimand the kids for giving a "wrong" answer).
Shakespeare, on the other hand, doesn't require people to give the "right" answers based on what they believe.
Scientific theories... yeah, I remember an incident that took place on the last day of my astronomy class in college. I'd gone up to the instructor, intending to thank him and tell him how much I'd enjoyed the class, and there was a guy who was there before me. That guy proceeded to complain that when the Big Bang was covered, Genesis wasn't. Then he demanded to know, "what religion are you?"
The instructor told him, "That's none of your business" and refused to argue with him.
As a work of literature? No argument there. It's necessary for an understanding of Shakespeare, which in turn is necessary for a fuller understanding of many works of literature and visual drama that came after it.
I used to work backstage in musical theatre, and one year we did Jesus Christ Superstar. I attended rehearsals, and was baffled by a couple of the songs. When I asked about them, I was condescendingly told, "It's from the bible."
So that meant reading the New Testament, to figure out what the lyrics referred to. I did similar research with the Old Testament to figure out the rock opera Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat.
I also worked on a couple of musicals based on Shakespeare (Kiss Me, Kate, based on The Taming of the Shrew, and West Side Story, based on Romeo and Juliet). I didn't have to do extra research for these, as Shakespeare was part of the high school English curriculum... which was not graded on students' religious beliefs.
"Amazing Grace" is a powerful piece of music, no matter what the listener does or doesn't believe. I attended a symphony concert back in the '90s that included a single spotlight on a lone piper, who played "Amazing Grace." By the end of that song, I'd guess that at least half the audience was crying.
For some individuals, it is an achievement.
Amanda is commonly thought to have been a linguist who taught Earth languages. As a human scholar, it would have been natural for her to want her son to know about her cultural heritage. Therefore, he would have been exposed to what she considered the classics of human literature.
For a different take on it, the Amanda in the Valjiir fanfiction stories (link in my sig) is Jewish, as are several other characters in that series. In addition to providing a different take on how religion and Starfleet can mix, it's a nice nod to Leonard Nimoy's RL experiences.
When I took sophomore English in the early 80s at a public university, portions of the King James Version of the Bible were taught as part of a poetry class, not as religion. As for high schools and elementary schools, religion should be taught by the parents, not by a state-controlled school.
What portions were taught as poetry? As an atheist who had to put up with that sort of thing in high school, this is something that annoys me. At the school I attended (a public school), a couple of the English teachers felt free to push their religion via some of the books they used as texts. It got to the point where some of the students felt compelled to find any sort of biblical imagery or symbolism or allusions they could in the poetry interpretation exercises or other assignments, to get a better grade.
One assignment we did in Grade 12 still stands out for me, even though it was 44 years ago. We had to break into groups of 4 and read and interpret Edwin Muir's poem "The Horses." My classmates immediately concluded that the war mentioned in the poem must be WWI or WWII and the horses were a metaphor for Jesus. I re-read the poem and said no, the war in the poem is WWIII and the horses are horses.
They looked at me blankly and one of them said, "But World War III hasn't happened yet."
Take note of the word "yet." This was during the Cold War, and nuclear war was on people's minds, the news was full of war, and our Grade 12 Social Studies and English classes were full of content about war (that was one of the most depressing school years ever). We hoped WWIII wouldn't happen, but were at the same time resigned to the idea that it probably would.
So the teacher assigned us a poem about the aftermath of WWIII, when horses were unfamiliar to the people and they had to relearn old ways before everything was run on electricity, gas, and automation. It seemed obvious to me, but my other 3 group members kept insisting I was wrong, and the horses were Jesus.
The teacher had been walking around the room and overheard this conversation. She said to the others, "You should listen to her. She's right."
Maybe if this teacher hadn't assigned so much stuff from the Jerusalem Bible and hadn't stated in the Q&A portion of a debate I was in that "the Bible is history", some of the students might not have been so confused.
I'm curious about how other jurisdictions handle teaching religion in public schools, since the former Minister of Education in my province tried to sneak her religion into the new school curriculum, including bible verses masquerading as "poetry". This curriculum isn't meant for people of college/university age. It's meant for kids in K-6. Basically it's a way for the right-wing religion-centric government here to do an end run around the Charter of Rights that guarantees (among other things) that people cannot be discriminated against on the basis of religion.
Bible verses in Grade 1 isn't "poetry". It's indoctrination. Indoctrination is par for the course in faith-based schools, but it has no place in public schools.
I've studied the Bible as literature for years, both in and out of classes.
Alongside Kipling, Shakespeare, Dickens, among others.
Alongside Kipling, Shakespeare, Dickens, among others.
Don’t forget Arena, which was loosely based on the biblical books of Enoch and Noah.
I wonder who the Gorn originally represented in this modern day sci-fi interpretation of these biblical sagas, as presented by Fredric Brown and Gene L. Coon? Did the Strange New Worlds writers know of this biblical connection when they wrote the Gorn in to their latest spinoff episodes? I hear that there was a Gorn cliffhanger at the end of season 2. I am sure that this was not an allegory though.
I have a long held theory about the Metron’s and the Gorn.
Also, there is the Star Trek book ‘Ishmael’, other than the inclusion of a ‘Here Comes the Bride’ crossover in this text, I am sure that the title cannot be a coincidence?
I wonder who the Gorn originally represented in this modern day sci-fi interpretation of these biblical sagas, as presented by Fredric Brown and Gene L. Coon? Did the Strange New Worlds writers know of this biblical connection when they wrote the Gorn in to their latest spinoff episodes? I hear that there was a Gorn cliffhanger at the end of season 2. I am sure that this was not an allegory though.
I have a long held theory about the Metron’s and the Gorn.
Also, there is the Star Trek book ‘Ishmael’, other than the inclusion of a ‘Here Comes the Bride’ crossover in this text, I am sure that the title cannot be a coincidence?
I cannot speak for Merry, as I wasn't in that class. Speaking in general, though, the entire Bible book of Psalms is, actually, songs. Likewise, the majority of the books of Job, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes and Song of Solomon were written in poetic style. Certain individual Psalms were written as acrostic songs with each stanza starting with a specific letter of the alphabet.
It's hard to understand as poetry in English because those book were originally written in Hebrew and Aramaic. They don't flow all that poetically in English. To add insult to injury is the King James, the most common English translation, was composed in Shakespearian English and we just don't naturally speak like that.
Don’t forget Arena, which was loosely based on the biblical books of Enoch and Noah.
I wonder who the Gorn originally represented in this modern day sci-fi interpretation of these biblical sagas, as presented by Fredric Brown and Gene L. Coon? Did the Strange New Worlds writers know of this biblical connection when they wrote the Gorn in to their latest spinoff episodes? I hear that there was a Gorn cliffhanger at the end of season 2. I am sure that this was not an allegory though.
I have a long held theory about the Metron’s and the Gorn.
Also, there is the Star Trek book ‘Ishmael’, other than the inclusion of a ‘Here Comes the Bride’ crossover in this text, I am sure that the title cannot be a coincidence?
Neither the book of Noah nor Enoch are in the Bible.
All of this. There are whole sections of research done on the literature of the Bible. Even if you don't care about spiritual matters, the Wisdom literature and Writings in the Hebrew Bible are culturally fascinating.
The literature of the New Testament is interesting more from the structure of the letters of Paul, as it uses classic Greek epistle structure.
There is so much depth there to study.
According to Wikipedia's article on the Moby Dick narrator of the same name, "The Biblical name Ishmael has come to symbolize orphans, exiles, and social outcasts." In the novel, Aaron Stemple discovers the amnesiac Spock, takes him in, and names him Ishmael Marx, probably in reference to his status as an "orphaned" outsider.
“Ishmael” has Aaron Stemple in it? Why can’t I recall that?
I'm not sure of the references from "Arena" either. And I've never heard of a book of Noah. Though, while it didn't make the final cut for either the Catholic or Protestant bibles, there was a book of Enoch (roughly from the same time the book of Daniel was written) that was very influential on the thinking and writings of the early Christians that did end up in the New Testament.
As for the teaching of the Bible in schools, when I was in high school in the 90's in rural Washington State, I can relate three relevant stories:
1) An advanced English class where the textbook had a section on the creation account of Genesis, chapters 1 - 3. It taught it from a scholarly perspective, pointing out that it was two different stories stitched together, first a grand perspective about the six days in which the various creations happened, ending in the creation of people, followed by a second story that starts with the creation of just Adam, then the plants and animals of the Garden of Eden and ending with the creation of Eve from Adam's rib. As a young Christian myself at the time, my report was full of apologetics explaining that the textbook was wrong (which I now disagree with; the textbook was right after all). The teacher, herself a Hindu actually, was respectful about my opinion and didn't press the matter.
2) A freshman History class, in which the textbook mentioned briefly the life and ministry of Jesus and that the crucifixion led to the advent of Christianity. After which my teacher went into a whole sermon about the importance of Jesus and how the resurrection of Christ was the best attested fact of the history of the Roman period. He was very much in the wrong, not only with his facts but in his presentation of those facts in a public, non-religious school.
3) A biology class, where the teacher seemed to find evolution distasteful, but dutifully taught the textbook even though she had an issue. I recall, again as a young Christian at the time, I had a problem with evolution myself and wasn't really paying attention in class. It was probably 15 years later that I really learned why Evolution is actually so robustly supported.
It's hard to tech the Bible as literature in a public school format because so many students are raised with such strong biases on the issue that however the subject is taught, someone will decry it as preaching.
--Alex
If Gene was not actually an atheist, then explain "The God Thing".
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