Anyone know or can point to a site where they are listed?
Ranks in the Cardassian Military.
- Thread starter MorganScorpion
- Start date
Memory Alpha is a good resource.
As for Ranks;
Legate: This is the equivalent of a Starfleet Admiral or Klingon General, it is also similar to a Breen Thot.
Due to the Military Government on Cardassia a Legate functions as a diplomatic envoy to non-CU worlds. For example Legate Turral negotiated the Bajor treaty.
Gul: Close to Captain but depends on seniority of said Gul. Our old friend Dukat was the perfect of Bajor and the head of the Second Order,whereas his cousin Macet only commanded the Trager, a Galor Class Warship. So a Gul does most of the actual day to day running of the Union's armed forces and will often be the last thing seen by a enemy of the Union!
Glinn: Lt Comander. Serves as second in command or Aide De Camp to a Gul. There are two on each Galor or Keldon class ship. Mostly they are support officers for Central Command but they may command smaller union vessels.
These are the three Cardassian ranks in ST canon. There are several more in the Trek lit and Fanfiction but these have not been elaborated upon.
Neryrs Ghemor's Sigils and Unions Background Thread in the Fanfiction forum has an interesting take on Cardassian Ranks that you may find to be useful.
As for Ranks;
Legate: This is the equivalent of a Starfleet Admiral or Klingon General, it is also similar to a Breen Thot.
Due to the Military Government on Cardassia a Legate functions as a diplomatic envoy to non-CU worlds. For example Legate Turral negotiated the Bajor treaty. Gul: Close to Captain but depends on seniority of said Gul. Our old friend Dukat was the perfect of Bajor and the head of the Second Order,whereas his cousin Macet only commanded the Trager, a Galor Class Warship. So a Gul does most of the actual day to day running of the Union's armed forces and will often be the last thing seen by a enemy of the Union!
Glinn: Lt Comander. Serves as second in command or Aide De Camp to a Gul. There are two on each Galor or Keldon class ship. Mostly they are support officers for Central Command but they may command smaller union vessels.
These are the three Cardassian ranks in ST canon. There are several more in the Trek lit and Fanfiction but these have not been elaborated upon.
Neryrs Ghemor's Sigils and Unions Background Thread in the Fanfiction forum has an interesting take on Cardassian Ranks that you may find to be useful.
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I think the best link is over at Star Trek Expanded Universe wikia...it details the RPG system as well as mine. Mine had language considerations, though, since I also designed a language for the Cardassians and had to make certain things fit.
You should also check out the Terok Nor novels for another system (closer to the RPG one) in inspiration.
Bear in mind, though, that only the ranks Thor Damar has given you are canon. And there is debate over what exactly a glinn is--sometimes I've seen them portrayed as junior officers, whereas in my continuity I consider them one step from a gul. Onscreen evidence could go either way on the question, so it's up to you how you want to interpret it.
You should also check out the Terok Nor novels for another system (closer to the RPG one) in inspiration.
Bear in mind, though, that only the ranks Thor Damar has given you are canon. And there is debate over what exactly a glinn is--sometimes I've seen them portrayed as junior officers, whereas in my continuity I consider them one step from a gul. Onscreen evidence could go either way on the question, so it's up to you how you want to interpret it.
I have always seen Glinns to be more like First officers to a Gul. Or at least the senior Glinn would be the first officer, this is where I see Daro and Damar as Glinns. However as Nerys Ghemor has rightly said there is not much evidence of the exact ranking system of the Union Military so a Glinn may just be a general term for a supporting officer.
It seems to me, in my own opinion, that the Cardassian rank structure is far more flexible and fluid that any other Military organization seen on Trek. So an exact definition of roles and responsibilities for each rank may be difficult to determine.
My personal belief is that the reverence for age causes that. If you're in a society that places a high emphasis on one's years, I would think that some quibbling over hierarchy would be solved that way and fewer rank gradations would be necessary (and thus you also end up with longer time-in-grade before a promotion, especially with the senior ranks). But remember...that's my totally non-canon take on the matter!
That actually does make a lot of sense, especially in the case of Legate Ghemor, who made a lot of enemies in the Central Command and Obsidian Order. Dukat must have made some powerful allies to make Legate and poor old Damar must have lost some legitimacy amongst the Military by being promoted to Legate at a relatively young age.
On a general note, I would like to argue that the Cardassian system of ranks is conceptually very dissimilar to the system of ranks in, say, the US Navy. Otherwise, the Universal Translator would simply turn Gul to Captain and be done with it.
The above speculation, especially the ideas about the relationship between age and prestige, sounds very good. I'm all for a truly alien system where there aren't any ranks per se - although I could also live with a system where there are ranks but those don't match the USN system closely enough to justify translation.
Apparently, the Romulan system features ranks, but in a manner that differs sufficiently fron the USN/Starfleet setup to justify terms such as Subcommander. In contrast, many other systems are so similar that the ranks there get translated to Captain or Lieutenant or Commander. Since it's a bit unlikely that those alien systems would be 1:1 matches with the USN one, there must be some tolerance in the translations - which begs the question of just how different the Romulan system must be to justify Subcommander...
Timo Saloniemi
The above speculation, especially the ideas about the relationship between age and prestige, sounds very good. I'm all for a truly alien system where there aren't any ranks per se - although I could also live with a system where there are ranks but those don't match the USN system closely enough to justify translation.
Apparently, the Romulan system features ranks, but in a manner that differs sufficiently fron the USN/Starfleet setup to justify terms such as Subcommander. In contrast, many other systems are so similar that the ranks there get translated to Captain or Lieutenant or Commander. Since it's a bit unlikely that those alien systems would be 1:1 matches with the USN one, there must be some tolerance in the translations - which begs the question of just how different the Romulan system must be to justify Subcommander...
Timo Saloniemi
^ Maybe it's the concept that's familiar rather than the actual rank. "Commander" might be a fairly close translation, since surely the role of commander, whatever you actually call it, has to be pretty much universal in any society with a rank structure, and "subcommander" could then be used simply because even though it is an unfamiliar word to humans, it is also instantly understandable.
But of course it could very well be that the literal translation of the Romulan word for "subcommander" is "Person who ranks just below commander." Or it could be that there are many different degrees of subcommander, and the translator just can't cope with them.
Heck, I've had difficulty explaining the concept of "warrant officer" (of which there are four different levels in the Marine Corps, or at least there were back when I had to know such things) to my fellow English-speaking natives of the United States of America.
But of course it could very well be that the literal translation of the Romulan word for "subcommander" is "Person who ranks just below commander." Or it could be that there are many different degrees of subcommander, and the translator just can't cope with them.
Heck, I've had difficulty explaining the concept of "warrant officer" (of which there are four different levels in the Marine Corps, or at least there were back when I had to know such things) to my fellow English-speaking natives of the United States of America.
For me, anyway, "gul" can run all the way from ship/outpost commander up to fleet commander--any active field command position, as well as certain high-ranking staff positions (that are not influential enough in shaping policy to merit "legate"). That would square with what we've seen in the series--we've seen some guls seem only to command their own ship or base, and others like Macet who seem able to command entire fleets.
Roughly the ranks "gul" encompasses could run all the way from "captain" through "commodore" and possibly even into low-level admiral positions, under this structure.
But really, when I'm coming up with somebody's rank (or equivalent Cardassian rank, for whatever their Starfleet rank is) in my story, what I do is I look at their time in service, their age, the duties of their position, and it all comes together to assign a rank. I just have an intuitive "feel" for what it should be, and I can't do it by looking at some sort of equivalency table.
I imagine the insistence on exact equivalency that some people seem to have comes from RPGs, where I suppose it's done to keep point systems functioning easily. But in novels and canon, personally, I don't feel like that's a necessity.
Maybe...kind of like "general"? In the U.S., we've got (in increasing order of rank) brigadier general (1-star), major general (2-star), lieutenant general (3-star), general (4-star) - and there is such a thing as a 5-star general, which is (I think - I've never personally run into one o' these) the overall commander of the Army.
So maybe the guls are differentiated, too, but just not in anyway that's visible to us.
I'm not sure that they would have to state the differentiation with as many tiny gradations as we do. But again, that's just me and my own imagination.
^ Well, OK, figure out the differentation then. I cannot imagine an army in a society as hierachal as the Cardassians (or humans, for that matter) in which you cannot tell a 5-star-equivalent gul from a 1-star-equivalent gul. If I were the equivalent of a 5-star, either human or Cardassian, I would for sure want everybody to know exactly how much higher my rank is than that lowly 1-star-equivalent. What's the fun in having all that rank if everybody doesn't know it?
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See, I think if you know how old the guy is and what he does, that's all you need to know. And if you're a Cardassian, it's no trouble to carry all of that in your head.
It's you humans with your spotty memories and undisciplined minds who have this need to have everything written down and spelled out for you...
It's you humans with your spotty memories and undisciplined minds who have this need to have everything written down and spelled out for you...
Dukat was eager to point out that he was a Gul of the Second Order. At first, it sounded like he was saying he was of the second-highest Gul rank, but later we learned that Orders were large military formations of some sort. Now the exact rank of Dukat might not be evident to an outsider even when the villain specifies 2nd Order, but a Cardassian might have Dukat's position figured out to the smallest detail when he or she hears that.
Just like Gul doesn't sound exactly like a rank, the Orders don't sound exactly like fleets or divisions. It appears there's a definite hierarchy between them, with the smaller numbers being more prestigious. Perhaps the Orders are more akin to the orders of knights in Earth history, with each having its own history, organization, and special relationship to the central government?
Timo Saloniemi
Just like Gul doesn't sound exactly like a rank, the Orders don't sound exactly like fleets or divisions. It appears there's a definite hierarchy between them, with the smaller numbers being more prestigious. Perhaps the Orders are more akin to the orders of knights in Earth history, with each having its own history, organization, and special relationship to the central government?
Timo Saloniemi
In the current novel continuity, it's organized like this (with approximate Starfleet equivalents).
gorr - Junior enlisted (Crewman)
garresh - Senior enlisted (Chief)
gil - Ensign
glinn - Lieutenant
dalin - Lt. Cmdr.
dal - Commander
gul - Captain
jagul - Commodore
legate - Admiral
gorr - Junior enlisted (Crewman)
garresh - Senior enlisted (Chief)
gil - Ensign
glinn - Lieutenant
dalin - Lt. Cmdr.
dal - Commander
gul - Captain
jagul - Commodore
legate - Admiral
See, I think if you know how old the guy is and what he does, that's all you need to know. And if you're a Cardassian, it's no trouble to carry all of that in your head.
It's you humans with your spotty memories and undisciplined minds who have this need to have everything written down and spelled out for you...
Hmmm...kind of like hobbits and family trees (if you'll forgive the LOTR reference)? Well, maybe. But what happens when you first meet somebody? The value in having those stars right there on the collar or wherever is that when somebody walks into a room or a camp, all you have to do is look up and then (if you are of a lesser rank), you can lock in, give that salute, whatever. So in a military organization, you know exactly who can order you around, and who can't.
But it's an interesting idea, anyway.
I'd still want the stars, though. Why leave these things to chance?
Something tells me the Cardassian mentality is that you should've done your research before you even encounter someone for the first time.
But I really think that they just don't need the fine gradations because their social structure takes care of it very quickly.
But I really think that they just don't need the fine gradations because their social structure takes care of it very quickly.
