Picard and Crew died in Generations

[Lookingglassman]

I was re-watching Generations on tv the other night and it struck me that Picard is still in the Nexus and his crew is dead that was on that planet and all the Star Trek movies after Generations are set in the Nexus and are just dreams of Picard. My logic is this:

1. The Nexus grabs folks and keeps moving in space. Thus if a person actually leaves the Nexus their bodies would be floating in space, dead.

2. Guianna said you can go backward and forward in time so when Kirk an Picard went back to stop Soren, they just went back in time still in the Nexus therefore Picard is still stuck in the Nexus and in his world Kirk is dead, but in reality Kirk is alive in his own version of the Nexus, chopping wood, cooking breakfast, etc..

 

[trekfan39]

Yeah but then First Contact didn't happen. To bad Generations didn't come between First Contact and Insurrection!

 

[bigglesworth]

It's always been my belief that the Picard that entered the Nexus wasn't the same Picard that came back. Maybe Picard's "echo" remained in the Nexus and it somehow changed the man that left. Anyway, this explains the John McClain-esq "action Picard" we see in the next 3 movies vs the more thoughtful and diplomatic Picard we see in the 7 years of TNG. It also explains how, in First Contact, Picard callously orders his party to kill any assimilated crew member and his vendetta against the Borg, when those feelings were not hinted at in I Borg or Descent.

 

[Vger23]

It's always been my belief that the Picard that entered the Nexus wasn't the same Picard that came back. Maybe Picard's "echo" remained in the Nexus and it somehow changed the man that left. Anyway, this explains the John McClain-esq "action Picard" we see in the next 3 movies vs the more thoughtful and diplomatic Picard we see in the 7 years of TNG. It also explains how, in First Contact, Picard callously orders his party to kill any assimilated crew member and his vendetta against the Borg, when those feelings were not hinted at in I Borg or Descent.

I'm not so sure it "changed" Picard in the way you imply, but in my "head canon" I often believe that Picard's personality changes come as a result of his facing mortality/immortality in the Nexus, losing the Ent-D, facing the loss of his brother and nephew, etc. Remember that when Picard was younger, he was much less prone to drinking tea and speechifying. Maybe he just got a little rejuvenated as the result of his experiences and decided to have a little fun again.

Honestly, it's a very human thing!

 

[Dukhat]

I was re-watching Generations on tv the other night and it struck me that Picard is still in the Nexus and his crew is dead that was on that planet and all the Star Trek movies after Generations are set in the Nexus and are just dreams of Picard. My logic is this:

1. The Nexus grabs folks and keeps moving in space. Thus if a person actually leaves the Nexus their bodies would be floating in space, dead.

2. Guianna said you can go backward and forward in time so when Kirk an Picard went back to stop Soren, they just went back in time still in the Nexus therefore Picard is still stuck in the Nexus and in his world Kirk is dead, but in reality Kirk is alive in his own version of the Nexus, chopping wood, cooking breakfast, etc..

Yes, this theory has been mentioned several times in the past. Basically it goes like this:

After finding out about Robert's and Rene's deaths, Picard's family line ending with him is very much on his mind. This is also the time when it is revealed that Kirk died when the Nexus damaged the Ent-B. So when Picard eventually enters the Nexus, it immediately creates the fantasy of him having a large family. But because Picard doesn't buy the initial fantasy, the Nexus quickly changes tactics by forming what he's told is an "echo" of Guinan, when in fact it is the Nexus itself still mucking with him, only this time it's making him think he's going back to the real world to fight Soran when in fact he's still in the Nexus. "Guinan" then makes him believe that he's teaming up with Kirk, when that also is a fantasy (i.e. Kirk really did die on the Ent-B).

And why did the Nexus choose fantasy-Kirk to help Picard, and then have him quickly die? Because it was giving Picard his other unmentioned fantasy: that Picard wanted to secretly be an action hero like Kirk. So much so, in fact, that Kirk needed to actually die so that Picard could take his place. And that's why each successive TNG film had Picard act more like Jean-Claude Van Damme instead of the mild-mannered, logical negotiator he was in TNG.

So Picard is still in the Nexus, still living out his fantasy of being an action hero, and any Trek movies or shows seen after Generations is just all part of Picard's fantasy. And yes, that also means that the rest of the Ent-D crew is dead.

 

[bigglesworth]

Yes, this theory has been mentioned several times in the past. Basically it goes like this:

After finding out about Robert's and Rene's deaths, Picard's family line ending with him is very much on his mind. This is also the time when it is revealed that Kirk died when the Nexus damaged the Ent-B. So when Picard eventually enters the Nexus, it immediately creates the fantasy of him having a large family. But because Picard doesn't buy the initial fantasy, the Nexus quickly changes tactics by forming what he's told is an "echo" of Guinan, when in fact it is the Nexus itself still mucking with him, only this time it's making him think he's going back to the real world to fight Soran when in fact he's still in the Nexus. "Guinan" then makes him believe that he's teaming up with Kirk, when that also is a fantasy (i.e. Kirk really did die on the Ent-B).

And why did the Nexus choose fantasy-Kirk to help Picard, and then have him quickly die? Because it was giving Picard his other unmentioned fantasy: that Picard wanted to secretly be an action hero like Kirk. So much so, in fact, that Kirk needed to actually die so that Picard could take his place. And that's why each successive TNG film had Picard act more like Jean-Claude Van Damme instead of the mild-mannered, logical negotiator he was in TNG.

So Picard is still in the Nexus, still living out his fantasy of being an action hero, and any Trek movies or shows seen after Generations is just all part of Picard's fantasy. And yes, that also means that the rest of the Ent-D crew is dead.

I like this, but how did Worf get assigned to DS9 if he's dead? Are all the events shown in DS9 part of Picard's fantasy?

** EDITED ***

Nevermind... I missed the explanation in your last paragraph.

 

[Dukhat]

I like this, but how did Worf get assigned to DS9 if he's dead? Are all the events shown in DS9 part of Picard's fantasy?

** EDITED ***

Nevermind... I missed the explanation in your last paragraph.

No, just anything that took place after Generations.

 

[STEPhon IT]

The rule was in the beginning of the film, a person couldn't simply escape from the Nexus. One would have to be ripped out of it in order to get out. A transporter tech would have to know what they're looking for, a pattern, to beam them from that state of reality or anti-reality to get out.

None of this happened to Picard when he was sucked into the Nexus. The Nexus can fulfill a persons dreams. So what did we see?
We see Picard meet the legendary Captain Kirk to go on a mission with him... on a horse. Fights the badguy, succeeds Kirk, and buries him.
In First Contact he overcomes his personal nightmare called the Borg, in Insurrection he gets a girlfriend, and finally in Nemesis he goes face to face... with himself. A wonderful fantasy of person like Picard. Picard is still in the Nexus.

 

[Vger23]

You guys are melting my brain.

 

[at Quark's]

Interesting theory. Just one question.

Given that Picard has a sincere wish to leave the Nexus, why would it want to fool him and keep him in? Does it have an ulterior motive?

 

[BigDaveX]

What about the alternate theory suggested by SF Debris and others - it wasn't a case of Picard never leaving the Nexus, but rather never entering it, and what we saw being a mixture of reality and things that Picard hallucinated after Soran knocked him senseless.

Say, for instance, Soran's rocket failed to launch, then when he went to inspect it to see what was up, it suddenly exploded, taking Soran with it. Then, in the intervening time until the Enterprise shuttle arrived to rescue Picard, he had dreams about being with the family that he never had, then meeting up with Kirk, and finally the two teaming up to kick Soran's ass. Plus, this also has the added benefit of explaining why Soran's rocket reached the sun in ten seconds, why the "nightfall" that follows is not only implausibly quick but looks like a bad day-for-night filter, and why Picard never once mentions Kirk after getting back to the crashed Enterprise.

 

[Tenacity]

Yeah but then First Contact didn't happen. To bad Generations didn't come between First Contact and Insurrection!

Or Generations came after Nemesis, we see Picard and Soren disappear, cut to the Enterprise saucer being destroyed.

Roll credits.

 

[trekfan39]

Or Generations came after Nemesis, we see Picard and Soren disappear, cut to the Enterprise saucer being destroyed.

Roll credits.

Or that I personally don't think the TNG movies are as bad as people make them out to be. Yes Insurrection was like a two hour episode of the Next Gen and Nemesis did have a lot of problems and did need some work but that's what happens when you let a fan boy write a Star Trek film. As for Generations I really like this movie it has it's plot holes but I still find it enjoyable. First Contact is of course the best of them but to me it still feels more like an episode of the show then Generations did which I think feels the most theatrical out of any of them, Nemesis would be right behind Generations when it comes to feeling like a motion picture IMO anyway.

 

[Dukhat]

Interesting theory. Just one question.

Given that Picard has a sincere wish to leave the Nexus, why would it want to fool him and keep him in? Does it have an ulterior motive?

No one can really answer that question, because no one (not even the scriptwriters) knew exactly what the Nexus was, other than it being a plot device to get Picard and Kirk together. We hear it described one way, and see it act exactly the opposite way. And I doubt the writers gave much more thought to it than that.

The theory that Picard is still in the Nexus is based on two premises: that Guinan's description of it was accurate, and Picard's actions after he "leaves" it. Guinan flat-out states that you won't want to leave the Nexus once you're there, and you won't care about anything else going on in the real world. This is the exact opposite of what we see when Picard is there. So either Guinan is wrong, or Picard is being fooled by the Nexus.

So let's examine what happens with Picard in the Nexus. Because his family line is foremost on his mind, that's his initial fantasy when he first arrives. But as soon as he sees Rene, he's still thinking rationally and knows Rene is dead, and the fantasy is broken. He realizes that he needs to get back to stop Soran, and that wish then becomes foremost in his mind. So then the Nexus gives him the fantasy that he's going back to the real world to stop Soran by creating a fake "echo" of Guinan to manipulate Picard into thinking he can return to real life with some mumbo jumbo about the Nexus being able to return him to any point in time (something that the real Guinan never said.) She then has him team up with Kirk, who "from his point of view, just got there himself." Hold on now. What?

Kirk died 78 years before. If he really got sucked into the Nexus, then what has he been doing for all that time before Picard found him? Why did he feel like he "just got there?" Sure, we can chalk it up to the "mysterious" properties of the Nexus, but that's just a bullshit answer (as I'm sure the scriptwriters thought and just as easily ignored.) So we see "Kirk" just being curmudgeonly about his "time being over" and Picard grousing about making a difference "one last time" ...as if Kirk is secretly Picard's hero and that Picard also wants to have the torch passed to him...etc., etc.

And if Kirk really was there, then his fantasy makes no sense. It was clear from the first scene of the movie that Kirk's greatest desire was to get out of retirement and command a ship again. So why is his Nexus fantasy...being in retirement? Perhaps because in Picard's mind, Kirk should stay retired? Hmmm.

So they leave the Nexus, choose the worst possible point to arrive back (but one with the most potential for action and danger), they defeat Soran, Kirk dies, Picard buries him under rocks at the top of the mountain (again, what?), walks back to the Enterprise, doesn't seem to be bothered in the slightest that his beloved ship is destroyed, casually tosses aside one of the rarest artifacts in the galaxy just to retrieve his photo book, and then spends the next three movies kicking Borg ass, taking up arms against the Federation, and meeting his asshole younger self so that he can kill him too.

 

[trekfan39]

The Generations novel did have Kirk doing things before meeting up with Picard. In the movie I just think since the Nexus doesn't have time passing by from Kirks point of view he really did just get there as in Picard inside the Nexus went back to 2293 and the point where Kirk got there and then they both went forward back to Picard's time of 2371.

 

[Tenacity]

So either Guinan is wrong, or ...

The nexus effects Humans and El-aurians differently.

 

[Dukhat]

The nexus effects Humans and El-aurians differently.

If that were the case, then the Nexus has lost any dramatic tension as a true obstacle for Picard and Kirk as it was described by Guinan, and makes her look like an idiot for suggesting that he wouldn’t be able to escape it when it was quite easy for him to do so. TNG showed that Guinan is the furthest thing from being an idiot. I’m pretty sure it wasn’t the writers’ intention for Guinan not to know what she was talking about, especially in the way she delivered her lines. It’s just a poor script and a poor plot device.

 

[Tenacity]

If that were the case, then the Nexus has lost any dramatic tension as a true obstacle for Picard and Kirk as it was described by Guinan

It was relevant to both Kirk and Picard that what was going on around them wasn't real, it didn't make a difference. It was a naturally occurring holodeck. They had more important things to do, so rejected the nexus and left.

Soren knew that the nexus was nothing more than a fantasy, but he didn't care. He spent several decades trying to get back in.

Guinan was describing the nexus to Picard based upon her own experience with it. Also, telling Picard that he wouldn't want leave might indicate that Guinan doesn't really know Picard as well as she thought she did, she doesn't understand what drives him.

Or Humans in general.

 

[Dukhat]

As I said, then the Nexus becomes a huge cop-out for the audience, since all that build-up to it was for nothing. That’s bad writing. And it’s also not like anyone in the movie actually stated that the Nexus doesn’t work with humans. Rather, the context of the film implies that Picard and Kirk escaped it simply because they figured out it was fake and needed to get back to the real world (in direct contrast to what Guinan said would happen), not because they were human and Guinan and Soran were not. And it's not even like the two men figured it out and escaped through sheer force of will. They just mucked about for a few minutes, said "yeah, this is fake," and left.

Guinan was describing the nexus to Picard based upon her own experience with it. Also, telling Picard that he wouldn't want leave might indicate that Guinan doesn't really know Picard as well as she thought she did, she doesn't understand what drives him.

Or Humans in general.

It’s been mentioned numerous times in TNG that Guinan knows Picard better than anyone. So I don’t really buy that in this one particular instance she didn’t. And the many centuries she's spent being around humans undoubtedly made her quite knowledgeable about them too.

 

[Spot261]

Guinan was describing the nexus to Picard based upon her own experience with it. Also, telling Picard that he wouldn't want leave might indicate that Guinan doesn't really know Picard as well as she thought she did, she doesn't understand what drives him.

Or that she knew exactly how to ensure he would leave