physically the strongest species?
- Thread starter cwl
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Species 8472 by actual physical strength. However, I would say the the changelings are probably the strongest meta-physically, given by what they can do with their shapeshifting abilities. We saw the Female Changeling pick up a cardassian by the throat singlehandedly, despite being weakened by the changeling virus.
Borg - Jem-Hadar - Vulcan - Klingon - Feds / Humans / Bajorans - Romulan - Cardassian - Ferengi is my take on the major races at least
Despite the dialog establishing this in "Take Me Out to the Holosuite", I don't buy it, really. Slightly stronger, yes; 3x stronger? Nah. Trek strength levels, and "who can beat up whom without too much difficulty" by species, have never been very consistently portrayed, and when I look at the entirety of the filmed canon, I tend to see a moderate result. A bit stronger, but not overpoweringly so.
The way I see it, in raw average strength, Vulcans and Klingons are about even, and Jem'Hadar are probably about on that level as well. Humans are one step down, and are about on the same level as Bajorans, Romulans, and some of the other "standard humanoid" species such as Andorians, Bolians, etc. Ferengi are another step down from there.
Cardassians don't really seem particularly stronger than Humans, but they may have a bit more endurance (Dukat certainly indicates this in comparison to Bajorans in "Indiscretion". It could be Dukat bluster, but Kira doesn't disagree, and it makes sense somehow).
These are all of course averages, with individuals able to fluctuate up or down to some degree.
What's that figure from? "Space Seed"?
You are the third or fourth different poster I have seen make that claim over the last year or so.
It never happened. Kira never got into any fights with Klingons - let alone beat any up - while pregnant.
Where are you all GETTING that idea?!
I always wondered why the Romulans don't seem to possess the strength of Vulcans, when they are supposedly genetically identical.
(Maybe they do, but it's never talked about nor is it demonstrated in scenes where it would be useful.)
Also, what do they mean when they say things like "Species x is 3 times the strength"... The variations in physical strength within the human species as we know it today are much more than 3 times. The world's strongest men can be up to 9 or 10 times the strength of the average Joe.
So do they mean that the weakest Vulcan can bench press 3x what Mariusz Pudzianowski can do, or do they mean the average Joe vulcan is 3x the average Joe human?
(Maybe they do, but it's never talked about nor is it demonstrated in scenes where it would be useful.)
Also, what do they mean when they say things like "Species x is 3 times the strength"... The variations in physical strength within the human species as we know it today are much more than 3 times. The world's strongest men can be up to 9 or 10 times the strength of the average Joe.
So do they mean that the weakest Vulcan can bench press 3x what Mariusz Pudzianowski can do, or do they mean the average Joe vulcan is 3x the average Joe human?
Actually Vulcans have been consistently portrayed as stronger through the entirety of ST. Remember the Spock-Kirk fight in the Transporter room...
I don't think most Klingons are as strong as Vulcans, simply because they're a lot easier to beat in a fight. Every Human-Vulcan fight I can remember seeing was a one-sided smackdown, against Klingons it was a different matter. Captain Sisko who personally pwned many Klingon warriors was famously fucked up by Solok.
The Jem'Hadar are odd.. I seem to remember someone pegging them at 5x (about the same as augment, which figures since they are geneticlly engineered themselves). In the episode where Jadzia joins the BOP with the despondent crew, one of the crewmen is giving this defeatist speech about how the Jem'Hadar are the future, and how they're "smarter, faster and stronger than us" (Klingons). But on the other hand regulars like Sisko and Kira pound many a Jem'Hadar grunt. Maybe they got lucky and got the JH when they were low on white and their strength was down.
Ferengi are another species that are weird. In TNG they were a lot stronger than they looked, and were described as such by Data. By DS9 they had become about the most puny species around.
Cardassians can take hot / desert climates better.
Yes, I do remember that fight.
Contrast that with the fight between Vorik and Torres in VOY's "Blood Fever". The half-human, half-Klingon was an even match against the Vulcan, and ultimately beat him.
Also, in "The Raven", Paris warns against Tuvok beaming over to Seven's shuttle, predicting that in close quarters, "Borg against Vulcan" won't go well for the latter. This proves to be correct once Tuvok does beam over; a human whose Borg implants have PARTIALLY resurfaced overpowers him. Contrast THIS to Worf standing up to Locutus in a pure contest of strength (holding his arm in place) in BoBW, and later in FC, Worf killing a Borg drone in one strike by just smacking it with his rifle.
So who is stronger than who here, among Vulcan, Human, Klingon, and Borg? It's a soup. A messy soup at that.
Sisko says that the Vulcans are stronger than every one of us, "Except for Worf" in "Take me Out..." Not even arguing that that represents a point for "my side", it's just another object being tossed into the soup and making it splatter on the table even more than it already had.
Sisko getting "fucked up" by Solok was brash, less-skilled CADET Sisko, dumb and hotheaded by his own admission, against a level-headed Vulcan who was already an experienced officer. In a WRESTLING match. Pure strength is pretty important there; even a very small advantage based on species, combined with simply being more skilled at it, would be enough to allow one opponent to seriously stomp on another.
And finally, also from "Take Me Out...": The Vulcans have been studying and playing baseball for months; if there's one thing Vulcans are DEFINITELY good at, it's adapting to a new skill. Sisko's team was comprised mostly of people who had barely ever been exposed to baseball before, along with three humans who were enthusiasts but hardly pros, and they only had two weeks to prepare.
Given their massive advantage in skill and practice time, the Vulcan team would have outscored the Niners by FAR MORE than they actually did if Vulcans were overwhelmingly faster and stronger than Humans, as the dialog would have us believe. The Niners would never have gotten a single hit, and in the field, would have been hard pressed to ever throw a Vulcan runner out on even a routine grounder.
ALL the time? Seems unlikely.
You know, I really wish the creators had showed us a Vulcan vs. Jem-Hadar fight, just once. Having a Vulcan (supposedly 3x stronger than humans by dialog) fight a Jem'Hadar (genetically engineered killing machines... who can still be taken down in hand-to-hand by humans) would have been interesting... though no matter how it went, it probably would have just made the inconsistency I've referred to even worse.
Well yes, that was the context for Dukat's line, but he makes it as a blanket statement. "Compared to us, you Bajorans are a bit fragile. Physiologically speaking, of course."
Let's not forget that the weakest little wimp of a David can kill any Goliath if given the opportunity to swing a big club, never mind edged weapons or the like. It's not a question of comparing the physical strengths of the two combatants - it's a question of the combatant possessing the absolute minimum strength required for wielding a deadly weapon.
That is, Worf might easily defeat a Borg drone with a sucker punch, yet suffer a humiliating loss in arm-wrestling. Janeway and Spock might do the same.
The best demonstrations of great physical strength don't come from hand-to-hand fights, they come from tasks of lifting, twisting and other wrangling. Data consistently excels in these tasks. Curiously, we have seen Riker defeat Worf in this just as consistently, suggesting either that Riker is way stronger than Sisko (quite possible, judging by their physical sizes, and perhaps well-trained 24th century musculature doesn't show...) or that Worf did some serious exercise between TNG and "Take Me to the Holosuite". Alas, our favorite Vulcans do extremely little in the way of heavy lifting, thus making comparisons difficult. But they do wrestle, and there they have the chance to demonstrate their great strength, again rather consistently.
There are dialogue references to Vulcans, Augments and Klingons being stronger than the average (or even the trained) human. There is no dialogue indication that the Jem'Hadar would have been equipped with great strength, though, and no particular requirement for them to possess that. Their two fortes are endurance, stealth, and a fanatic devotion to the Founders; plenty to defeat most opponents.
Agreed with the other arguments - but why would Vulcan strength and agility result in this outcome? A pitch is a pitch; a fast one is a bit of a challenge, but it doesn't take superhuman strength or agility to bring the bat to contact with a superhuman pitch. And if the Vulcan provides extra speed to the ball, that only works in favor of the batter by giving the rebound similar extra speed, at virtually no cost to the batter.
Timo Saloniemi
That is, Worf might easily defeat a Borg drone with a sucker punch, yet suffer a humiliating loss in arm-wrestling. Janeway and Spock might do the same.
The best demonstrations of great physical strength don't come from hand-to-hand fights, they come from tasks of lifting, twisting and other wrangling. Data consistently excels in these tasks. Curiously, we have seen Riker defeat Worf in this just as consistently, suggesting either that Riker is way stronger than Sisko (quite possible, judging by their physical sizes, and perhaps well-trained 24th century musculature doesn't show...) or that Worf did some serious exercise between TNG and "Take Me to the Holosuite". Alas, our favorite Vulcans do extremely little in the way of heavy lifting, thus making comparisons difficult. But they do wrestle, and there they have the chance to demonstrate their great strength, again rather consistently.
There are dialogue references to Vulcans, Augments and Klingons being stronger than the average (or even the trained) human. There is no dialogue indication that the Jem'Hadar would have been equipped with great strength, though, and no particular requirement for them to possess that. Their two fortes are endurance, stealth, and a fanatic devotion to the Founders; plenty to defeat most opponents.
Agreed with the other arguments - but why would Vulcan strength and agility result in this outcome? A pitch is a pitch; a fast one is a bit of a challenge, but it doesn't take superhuman strength or agility to bring the bat to contact with a superhuman pitch. And if the Vulcan provides extra speed to the ball, that only works in favor of the batter by giving the rebound similar extra speed, at virtually no cost to the batter.
Timo Saloniemi
Don't you think it was a bit facile to make all the aliens look like humans but arbitrarily make most of them stronger by some mystical means which has nothing to do with their bodies? The same goes for age. I imagine humans would have ironed out most of the problems of delaying ageing by the time these stories were set and yet we still have the human-like aliens out-living humans easily. B5 was guilty of this too.
If we look at human-like examples on Earth, chimps and gorillas have HUGE arms compared proportionally to humans, which is why they are so much stronger.
If we look at human-like examples on Earth, chimps and gorillas have HUGE arms compared proportionally to humans, which is why they are so much stronger.
Thanks to the random, scattershot way evolution works, humans, mammals or vertebrates are hardly the ultimate in how to wrestle strength out of a kilogram of muscle tissue. Evolution on other planets could easily have come up with muscle cells that are fifty times more efficient than ours, or fifty times less so, and built the local species around those.
That evolution everywhere would generate human-looking bipeds is a somewhat separate issue to be tackled. "The Chase" tackled it well enough, by establishing that natural evolution had little or nothing to do with that... But if this alien meddling worked by forcibly turning a promising species on any planet into a humanoid (say, apes on Earth, but fish on Antedea!), the results might well suffer from characteristics that are unoptimal for the humanoid form.
Timo Saloniemi
That evolution everywhere would generate human-looking bipeds is a somewhat separate issue to be tackled. "The Chase" tackled it well enough, by establishing that natural evolution had little or nothing to do with that... But if this alien meddling worked by forcibly turning a promising species on any planet into a humanoid (say, apes on Earth, but fish on Antedea!), the results might well suffer from characteristics that are unoptimal for the humanoid form.
Timo Saloniemi
human actors playing the roles of other aliens is a problem. Vulcans are consistently to be stronger than humans but are physically unremarkable, not bulky at all. the argument in favour of this is that their muscles are the same size just a lot stronger. (maybe sometime in vulcan history genetic engineering was practised)
we know that on earth genetic engineering was outlawed. that's why Dr Bashir's parents hid the fact that they engineered him. it would be interesting to see how Julian faired against a vulcan or klingon in a fight.
Just remembered the Gorn. Possibly the strongest biped/humanoid species seen on st, but ridiculously slow and clumsy, as seen in that famous comical fight scene. Also probably the most resistant to damage.
I always thought it was a difference of gravity on different planets, not the physical build of the person. On Earth, no matter what species you are or where you are from, we are all affected equally by gravity and other factors affect our physical abilities. You can't really compare aliens by the same standards though.
I've actually thought the "strength" variations between different Star Trek aliens has not been consistently portrayed or well written. It seems to be whatever works at the moment. But aside from the Vulcan nerve pinch, we don't really see different fighting styles between different races. We don't see much evidence of weaker races accomodating with other tactics, etc.
The people of Kafkha 4. In Invasive Procedures, a prostituefrom that planet beat up Kira in a one sided smack down. She took Kiras best punches without flinching then smacked her to the deck plating. Kira looked unconscious before she hit the ground
Despite the dialog establishing this in "Take Me Out to the Holosuite", I don't buy it, really. Slightly stronger, yes; 3x stronger? Nah. Trek strength levels, and "who can beat up whom without too much difficulty" by species, have never been very consistently portrayed, and when I look at the entirety of the filmed canon, I tend to see a moderate result. A bit stronger, but not overpoweringly so.
The way I see it, in raw average strength, Vulcans and Klingons are about even, and Jem'Hadar are probably about on that level as well. Humans are one step down, and are about on the same level as Bajorans, Romulans, and some of the other "standard humanoid" species such as Andorians, Bolians, etc. Ferengi are another step down from there.
Cardassians don't really seem particularly stronger than Humans, but they may have a bit more endurance (Dukat certainly indicates this in comparison to Bajorans in "Indiscretion". It could be Dukat bluster, but Kira doesn't disagree, and it makes sense somehow).
These are all of course averages, with individuals able to fluctuate up or down to some degree.
What's that figure from? "Space Seed"?
You are the third or fourth different poster I have seen make that claim over the last year or so.
It never happened. Kira never got into any fights with Klingons - let alone beat any up - while pregnant.
Where are you all GETTING that idea?!
I know. It sounds cool. Plus this question has been asked a million times.
We have? When?
I can only recall one time, where Worf was struggling to move something (a fallen metal beam or some such), and calls Riker over, who just grabs the other end and hoists it up like it was no big deal... one could assume that Worf just had bad leverage, or Riker adding his strength was the tipping point between moving it or not, but it was filmed oddly. Unfortunately, I can't remember what ep it's from... Anyway, "consistently"? How many times? What eps?
But we've never seen that either, we have only the one instance relayed to us by Sisko long after the fact. We never see Vulcans try to lift really heavy things that others have trouble with, and there are relatively few fight scenes with em (and NONE against Jem'Hadar)... it makes it hard to reach any solid conclusions.
There is a cost to the batter, it's harder to hit the pitch. You are acting as if a very fast pitch cannot - in and of itself - be hard to hit. There are plenty of MLB pitchers who get strikeouts by simply blowing the batter away with a fastball. Now, you can't JUST throw super fast pitches over and over, or the batters will adjust and hit it far. But part of what makes a fastball effective is the contrast between it and slower pitches; if a Vulcan really is THREE times as strong on average, than an athletic Vulcan who has been playing baseball for months is going to be able to throw REALLY damn fast. Probably well over a hundred, making the contrast between it and slower pitches that much more difficult to overcome. If the pitcher is locating well (which the Vulcan pitcher clearly was), then I wouldn't expect the Niners to EVEN do as well as they did. Maybe saying they wouldn't get a single hit was a bit much... on the other hand, in this kind of scenario, I would expect to see the three Humans who have played baseball before, or Worf, or Bashir, as the only ones to GET hits. But as I recall, the hits they did finally get came from none of those individuals, which makes no sense.
Exactly.
I'd forgotten about that!Man, that made Kira look lame...
You are the third or fourth different poster I have seen make that claim over the last year or so.
It never happened. Kira never got into any fights with Klingons - let alone beat any up - while pregnant.
Where are you all GETTING that idea?!
I know. It sounds cool. Plus this question has been asked a million times.
Ok...? It doesn't sound cool, it sounds stupid. And if you know it never happened, why did you say it?
And if my question about where the notion came from has really been asked "a million times", I guess I somehow just missed it, despite all my lurking here. So please, feel free to fill me in on the answer.
^most topics and questions in the trek forums have been discussed often. That's why many long time posters don't post in the trek forums anymore.
As for the remark, it was in jest, because it has been asked often. I dont always make serious remarks in the trek forums, like the one about Mulgrew being in First Contact.
Oh, as for the answer, it's all speculative because...... well.... because we don't have the means to test each species. Best we can do is observe what we have on screen. In the end, there is no single definite answer :LOL: Obviously, the strength of a character depends on the plot so...
As for the remark, it was in jest, because it has been asked often. I dont always make serious remarks in the trek forums, like the one about Mulgrew being in First Contact.
Oh, as for the answer, it's all speculative because...... well.... because we don't have the means to test each species. Best we can do is observe what we have on screen. In the end, there is no single definite answer :LOL: Obviously, the strength of a character depends on the plot so...
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