Orions & the Federation

[Redshirt214]

I've been pondering lately the relationship between the Orions and Federation recently, specifically, are they a part of the Federation by the era of the Next Gen (TNG-VOY)?

During the Babel conference they didn't seem to be, since they were trying to derail the summit. Later in "The Pirates of Orion", Kirk states that "Orion's charade of neutrality is over!", so they certainly aren't part of the Federation at that point but rather a independent power that is not aligned with the Klingon Empire or Federation (but is engaged in a series of proxy attacks by pirates\privateers on Federation freighters).

I don't know what to make of Pike's "Orion Colony" reference, honestly. Other than maybe it has got more to do with a colony world of Orion than Earth, and merely happens to be "the place" starship men go on their shore leaves?

Most of what is mentioned in the TNG era is the "Orion Syndicate", which seems to be a criminal, not governmental organization. Tendi is of course later on a Starlet officer, but then again it's not like your home world not being a Federation member is really a bar to admission, like in the case of Worf or Nog. There are some mentions of "Orion Free Traders", which may be a business organization but may also imply similar neutral status of the world.

Given Kirk's comment in Pirates, it almost sounds as if the Federation may have been considering a war on Orion in the 23rd century, and if the Syndicate seems to imply the Orions nefarious dealing have gone underground. So maybe it would be a Federation world by the 2300s, albeit a lousy one? I imagine the slave trade would have to have been outlawed prior to admission, if it was ever even legal in the first place.

I'd also like to imagine that the Orions and Ferengi would have been involved in some bad business over the years. The two cultures seem a match made in heaven\hell and great story telling fodder.

 

[Orphalesion]

Well, on Lower Decks...

Spoiler

Tendi says that many Orions haven't been hyper-libertarian gangster pirates (or something along those lines) "for almost five years now". Lower decks takes place in 2380, so there would have been a major shift in Orion culture around 2375, which would correspond to the end of the Dominion War, funnily enough. Maybe something happened to them in the war that caused that shift in philosophy.

This also implies that before 75 being a"hyper-libertarian gangster pirate" was still the dominant force in Orion culture, which kinda excludes them from Federation Membership.

The name "Orion Syndicate" could just be the name they chose for their Empire and it's ruled by crime lords or something. In that form it wouldn't be too different from the Hutt Space in the Star Wars Legends continuity.
They probably aren't in any position to threaten the Federation anymore, so there's no more consideration of going to war with them, but it's still far away from making Orion a Federation world.
So I'd say they are a small Empire run by crime lords that exists on the fringes of the other, larger empires.

 

[1001001]

Given Kirk's comment in Pirates, it almost sounds as if the Federation may have been considering a war on Orion in the 23rd century, and if the Syndicate seems to imply the Orions nefarious dealing have gone underground. So maybe it would be a Federation world by the 2300s, albeit a lousy one? I imagine the slave trade would have to have been outlawed prior to admission, if it was ever even legal in the first place.

Completely unrelated, is it safe to assume you don't watch DSC?

 

[Redshirt214]

Yes although I did see some spoilers via Memory Alpha's page on Orions. As I understand they have in the 2250s a rather large cruiser class out there, and not all Orions are built like Starbases (if you know what I mean ), none of which is huge news as far as I'm concerned?

I don't have All Access, so most of my knowledge of modern Trek comes from various spoilers! I've probably seen about a 1/4 of LD though from leaked clips alone and really enjoyed what I saw. I try to maintain a very rough idea about what's going on in cannon even if I'm not an active viewer, so I'm not totally unspoiled for DSC. I don't mind spoilers about it too much...

 

[Dukhat]

Most of what is mentioned in the TNG era is the "Orion Syndicate", which seems to be a criminal, not governmental organization.

During DS9's run, there was never any evidence that the 'Orion Syndicate' actually had anything to do with the Orions. It was only later in ENT that they linked the two.

 

[1001001]

Yes although I did see some spoilers via Memory Alpha's page on Orions. As I understand they have in the 2250s a rather large cruiser class out there, and not all Orions are built like Starbases (if you know what I mean ), none of which is huge news as far as I'm concerned?

I don't have All Access, so most of my knowledge of modern Trek comes from various spoilers! I've probably seen about a 1/4 of LD though from leaked clips alone and really enjoyed what I saw. I try to maintain a very rough idea about what's going on in cannon even if I'm not an active viewer, so I'm not totally unspoiled for DSC. I don't mind spoilers about it too much...

Well we can’t post uncoded spoilers here for six months after air date anyway.

If you’re interested, you can certainly check out the DSC forum.

 

[Redshirt214]

During DS9's run, there was never any evidence that the 'Orion Syndicate' actually had anything to do with the Orions. It was only later in ENT that they linked the two.

No doubt the Orions wanted it that way...

 

[Timo]

Orions seem to come in three layers. There was a mighty empire once, now in ruins (TOS "Little Girls") - possibly a long time ago, because the ruins contain forgotten secrets, and if Starfleet created the ruins with an orbital bombardment in 2198, the "forgotten" part would make limited sense. Then there's this government that secretly sponsors piracy and meddles in the affairs of nations. And then there's the Syndicate.

Now, the government and the Syndicate may well be much the same thing, even if there are nuances and technicalities. But it's quite likely that in a setup like that, with a legitimate government and a de facto rule-by-crime, other players could choose whether to play this divide up or down. The ENT antics wouldn't involve the government in any way: Archer would only ever run into the Mob and deal with it directly, because he wouldn't have a government to back him up, either (Earth being quite the non-entity back then). TOS would involve the government, even if the Syndicate did the dirty work. And TAS would be when Starfleet gets fed up with playing the distinction up and starts playing it down, holding the government responsible for the privateering.

After this, the Syndicate would obviously keep going, but might start to whitewash its public image: the green would have to go. The government would fade to obscurity, then, when the concept of "an important Orion" starts to run contrary to the interests of the Syndicate.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Annorax849]

Well in the Kelvin Timeline, specifically STID, we see a map that actually shows the territory of the “Orion Union.”

However, around the same time in the Prime Timeline, the Discovery war map shows the Orion system as being within UFP space. Now that could be a 3D issue, who knows. And of course stuff like that could very well get retconned.

Edit: Plus them being members at that point is inconsistent with TOS/TAS

 

[1001001]

Orions seem to come in three layers.

They're like Ogres.

OMG: Fiona and Shrek are Orions!

 

[Arpy]

It’s funny how references can be confusing in Trek. I had similar pondering about the Nausicaans.

Yeah, with the Orions I see them as anarchistic to an extent. They’re been around a long time and have deteriorated to the point of just being “around.” There may be an Orion government but it’s about as powerful as the Queen of England, and really it’s the mob that has the reach and firepower. Orions are spread throughout the galaxy and are mostly under the “protection” of the syndicate or whatever alien governments that now control ancient Orion territory.

They have the ancient perspective of seeing governments as ephemeral and focus on more epicurean/hedonistic pursuits. Whenever they think to organize further, the syndicate wields both soft and hard power to suggest they reconsider.

 

[tesral]

I've never seen the Orions as "of a piece". Like Humans occupying many planets, some are part of the "Orion Colonies" the neutral body. Some are not ,some are part of the Federation and have put down slavery. So "Orions" can be nearly anything you want or need.

 

[Farscape One]

What about this oddity... we see an Orion cadet, played by Rachel Nichols, at Starfleet Academy in the Kelvin film. We never hear of Orions in Starfleet at this time, or the 24th century until LOWER DECKS.

Granted, it's an alternate universe, but it does beg the question.

 

[XCV330]

What about this oddity... we see an Orion cadet, played by Rachel Nichols, at Starfleet Academy in the Kelvin film. We never hear of Orions in Starfleet at this time, or the 24th century until LOWER DECKS.

Granted, it's an alternate universe, but it does beg the question.

It's a big fleet. You never see a lot of East Asian people in Starfleet either, though I assume there are more than a handful. Star Trek was filmed for awhile using a special variant of the Woody Allen Filter (a magical device used to film scenes in New York City without putting a single black person on film), one supposes. I digress.

There's plenty of evidence for officers from non-member worlds like Yar, Nog, and Saru (and Data for that matter, possibly.. where was he actually built?) so there might be other Orion officers out there.

 

[Farscape One]

Fair point. But given how known the Orions are, you'd think we'd get at least dialogue that mentions a few in Starfleet.

 

[Timo]

Does anybody ever mention "a few Vulcans in Starfleet" when Spock is around? The heroes at the focus obviously would not. We don't meet the others so we can't tell. But the heroes, when discussing Spock and his handful of colleagues, never think of bringing up the "related" issue of a few Andorians or Xindi or whatever who serve on those other ships, perhaps with distinction equal to Spock's. It just isn't something that would crop up in dialogue.

Starfleet seems to have at least one ship's worth of Vulcans in active service in TOS, plus assorted others a decade earlier in DSC (including admirals). This may still mean that Vulcans make up 0.002% of the manpower, while Andorians contribute 0.009% but the odds of running to one are still more or less zip. Is it the same with East Asians? By some quirk of pseudohistory, they might well all be dead, or antagonistic to Starfleet, and/or off to found a colonial utopia really far away. Save again for that 0.001% we won't meet.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[F. King Daniel]

What about this oddity... we see an Orion cadet, played by Rachel Nichols, at Starfleet Academy in the Kelvin film. We never hear of Orions in Starfleet at this time, or the 24th century until LOWER DECKS.

Granted, it's an alternate universe, but it does beg the question.

Khan also smashes past one in San Francisco at the end of Into Darkness, and there's one serving on the Enterprise at the start of Beyond, who we see kicking Chekov out of her room. Co-writer Bob Orci had a whole backstory crafted about how Captain Pike was invovled in an "underground railroad" that got Orion slaves to freedom which he mentioned in interviews but otherwise never came to screen, or any official tie-ins.

 

[Farscape One]

It's one thing to have no mention of other Vulcans or Andorians in Starfleet because they are founding member worlds. It wouldn't be odd. But an Orion? Everything we hear about them says they are not even allies of the Federation, so having serve in Starfleet would seem to be something other officers might talk about. It would be like having a Cardassian join Starfleet.

 

[Farscape One]

Khan also smashes past one in San Francisco at the end of Into Darkness, and there's one serving on the Enterprise at the start of Beyond, who we see kicking Chekov out of her room. Co-writer Bob Orci had a whole backstory crafted about how Captain Pike was invovled in an "underground railroad" that got Orion slaves to freedom which he mentioned in interviews but otherwise never came to screen, or any official tie-ins.

I never knew that. I wonder if STRANGE NEW WORLDS might bring this as a story arc. Or at least an episode.

 

[Timo]

It's one thing to have no mention of other Vulcans or Andorians in Starfleet because they are founding member worlds. It wouldn't be odd. But an Orion? Everything we hear about them says they are not even allies of the Federation, so having serve in Starfleet would seem to be something other officers might talk about. It would be like having a Cardassian join Starfleet.

And for all we know, there were a couple, and still nobody thought it a worthy subject of a discussion.

In Abramsverse at least, Spock being in Starfleet was supposed to be tantamount to him defecting form his alien and isolationist homeworld to the Federation the Vulcans otherwise despise. That subject never arose much in those movies, either...

Timo Saloniemi