Mr. Spock and the issue of Captain Pike

[Gary7]

We all get to see how nearly comical Spock was in the Cage. He smiled. He showed emotion. And it happened in "Where No Man Has Gone Before" as well. Even with "Mudd's Women" and "The Enemy Within." It's easy to explain that away as Spock was half human and half Vulcan.

But by the Menagerie, we'd seen Spock evolve into a more cooler mode of operating. No smiling per se, no signs of emotion. The human side "tamed." This was the only Vulcan we knew of... no other characters of this race.

But then there's The Menagerie. I posit that Spock's actions to kidnap Captain Pike and commandeer the Enterprise were so out of character. After receiving contact from the Talosians (a mystery), how could Spock not report it to his captain... and treat it as his own special illegal mission to bring Pike to them? There was of course the logical obstacle -- Talos IV had been deemed "hands off" in all respects. No communication, let alone visitation. Completely banned. I understand Spock having loyalty to his previous captain, but wouldn't loyalty to his present captain take priority? Captain Kirk is his acting commanding officer! How Spock could carry this out alone, not even tell Kirk what he wanted to do. The ends does not justify the means! He committed a crime. He stole a starship... and that's just so out of character for a Vulcan.

Here's how things probably should have happened, in "reality":
1) Spock visits Pike. He tells him about what the Talosians are offering him. He can live on Talos IV with them and he'd be free of his physical handicap. I'm sure Pike would accept, given what we witnessed in the episode. But then the question becomes, how to get him there, given the ban?

2) Spock makes a plea to the Federation. Yes, Talos IV is completely banned, but the reason why was the mind bending Talosians, who kidnapped a starship captain. Well, they have remorse over this. They promise never to do it again. And after all, they did let Captain Pike go. But they know of his disabled condition and want to compensate for it. Give Captain Pike the chance to life normally. All they would need to do is send a lone ship to Talos IV with Captain Pike aboard. He would be dropped off there, and the ship would return. Done. Effectively, the ban would be momentarily lifted for the benefit of Captain Pike. They owed him that much, right?

Of course, that doesn't make for much of an episode... but how could you take this premise and make it work with it being respectful of Spock's character?

 

[BillJ]

I'm not sure it was out-of-character for Spock to make a poor choice to save a friend. Witness his actions in "The Tholian Web", jeopardizing the entire crew to retrieve Kirk.

Spock is half-human, and sometimes his connection to certain people overwhelms his logic.

 

[Noname Given]

We all get to see how nearly comical Spock was in the Cage. He smiled. He showed emotion. And it happened in "Where No Man Has Gone Before" as well. Even with "Mudd's Women" and "The Enemy Within." It's easy to explain that away as Spock was half human and half Vulcan.

But by the Menagerie, we'd seen Spock evolve into a more cooler mode of operating. No smiling per se, no signs of emotion. The human side "tamed." This was the only Vulcan we knew of... no other characters of this race.

But then there's The Menagerie. I posit that Spock's actions to kidnap Captain Pike and commandeer the Enterprise were so out of character. After receiving contact from the Talosians (a mystery), how could Spock not report it to his captain... and treat it as his own special illegal mission to bring Pike to them? There was of course the logical obstacle -- Talos IV had been deemed "hands off" in all respects. No communication, let alone visitation. Completely banned. I understand Spock having loyalty to his previous captain, but wouldn't loyalty to his present captain take priority? Captain Kirk is his acting commanding officer! How Spock could carry this out alone, not even tell Kirk what he wanted to do. The ends does not justify the means! He committed a crime. He stole a starship... and that's just so out of character for a Vulcan.

Here's how things probably should have happened, in "reality":
1) Spock visits Pike. He tells him about what the Talosians are offering him. He can live on Talos IV with them and he'd be free of his physical handicap. I'm sure Pike would accept, given what we witnessed in the episode. But then the question becomes, how to get him there, given the ban?

2) Spock makes a plea to the Federation. Yes, Talos IV is completely banned, but the reason why was the mind bending Talosians, who kidnapped a starship captain. Well, they have remorse over this. They promise never to do it again. And after all, they did let Captain Pike go. But they know of his disabled condition and want to compensate for it. Give Captain Pike the chance to life normally. All they would need to do is send a lone ship to Talos IV with Captain Pike aboard. He would be dropped off there, and the ship would return. Done. Effectively, the ban would be momentarily lifted for the benefit of Captain Pike. They owed him that much, right?

Of course, that doesn't make for much of an episode... but how could you take this premise and make it work with it being respectful of Spock's character?

Production reason: When "The Cage" was filmed - the character of Spock (and Vulcans as a race) were NOT emotionless creatures of Logic. the 'Number One' character (while Human) was supposed to be the overall emotionless logical one. Young Lt. Spock was going to be a 'hot-head'; emotional and going off half-cocked.

Once they got to the second pilot where the suits said "Keep either the Mr. Spock, OR Number One character; but not both..." <--- That's when 'Mr. Spock' became the logical/scientific/emotionless character; and that worked better if all Vulcans were unemotional and logical; so the 'Vulcans' as we know them today, were born.

Story reason; Either take the smile as a consequence of Spock being young, and less able to fully control his own emotional state when surrounded by emotional Humans...or, he had gas.

Also, as seen in TOS - 'Mirror, Mirror' it's completely plausible to see Vulcans commit 'evil' acts and justify them logically. No where in Star Trek was it said all Vulcans are ethical. And if you're going to bring up the exchange from TOS - "The Enterprise Inciident":

COMMANDER: He is a Vulcan. Our forebears had the same roots and origins. Something you wouldn't understand, Captain. We can appreciate the Vulcans, our distant brothers. I have heard of Vulcan integrity and personal honor. There's a well-known saying, or is it a myth, that Vulcans are incapable of lying?

SPOCK: It is no myth.

^^^
Remember, Spock was LYING as he said that. Both Kirk and Spock were on a secret mission to steal the new cloaking device; and the situation where Kirk was 'going mad' was a ruse in case things didn't turn out as planned - to keep the Federation government blameless.

Then there's Sarek's (Spock's father) lies in "Journey To Babel" - where he was lying to his wife about his heart condition; and initially lied to Kirk saying he was in private meditation when in fact he passed out due to his heart condition.

There's also Stonn's and T'Pring's infidelity plot to release T'Pring from her parent's pledge to Wed Spock, and T'Pring didn't care that either Spock or Kirk could/would be dead as a result.

So, sorry, given the above - what Spock did - Stealing the Enterprise and diverting attention from stopping the ship from reaching Talos IV was perfectly in character for a logical Vulcan pursuing a goal of saving an old comrade; and giving said comrade a better quality of life <-- Which was Spock's ultimate intention.

 

[velour]

I see parallels between the Spock/Pike situation and the story in TSFS.

In "The Menagerie", Spock wanted Pike to have a second chance at having a life. In TSFS, Kirk and crew were determined to reunite Spock's katra with Spock's body, so that Spock would once more live again.

In both instances, the Enterprise was stolen or hijacked to accomplish the respective missions.

It might have been more realistic if, in the Spock/Pike situation, Spock had done what McCoy tried to do in TSFS. That is to seek and hire a charter to take him -- and Pike -- to a forbidden planet. The price would have been high, but at least Spock would have avoided the need to hijack a starship and to put his captain, Kirk, in jeopardy. It might even have been amusing to see Spock haggling over price with some weird looking alien in a bar.

 

[Timo]

Here's how things probably should have happened, in "reality":
1) Spock visits Pike. He tells him about what the Talosians are offering him. He can live on Talos IV with them and he'd be free of his physical handicap. I'm sure Pike would accept, given what we witnessed in the episode.

But he didn't. He was screaming "No! No!" from the bottom of his former lungs.

We never learn whether this was because he thought it would be a bad idea for Spock to ruin his career and several others in pursuing this goal; because the plan would jeopardize UFP security; or because Pike considered the proposed fate utter hell and his current predicament vastly preferable to it.

But then the question becomes, how to get him there, given the ban?

The real question becomes, how to convince Starfleet that the ban has been rendered null and void already, as demonstrated by the Talosians reaching Spock despite all the precautions. And a dramatic demonstration never hurt anybody...

2) Spock makes a plea to the Federation. Yes, Talos IV is completely banned, but the reason why was the mind bending Talosians, who kidnapped a starship captain. Well, they have remorse over this.

And they demonstrate this remorse by mentally kidnapping yet another Starfleet officer, who should be quickly put to death before he can corrupt the rest!

They promise never to do it again. And after all, they did let Captain Pike go.

And now they are doing it again, and to the very same Captain Pike to boot!

All they would need to do is send a lone ship to Talos IV with Captain Pike aboard. He would be dropped off there, and the ship would return.

That would defeat the purpose of the quarantine - the ship should never be allowed to return with its Armageddon load of Talosian ideas or actual Talosian telepaths aboard. Even sending a robot ship designed to self-destruct immediately after delivering Pike would be a huge risk, as the Talosians, their claims about technological incompetence aside, are perfectly good at hijacking crewed spacecraft by influencing the crew. Extreme precautions should be made to deny Pike all access to the ship's controls... And even then Starfleet couldn't be sure.

Of course, the issue would be moot now that Starfleet knows the Talosians can reach out from their planet through corrupt intermediaries like Spock. Perhaps they should go along with the above plan, just with the delivery spacecraft rigged to blow up planet Talos for good? But trying to fool telepaths is never a workable plan...

Of course, that doesn't make for much of an episode... but how could you take this premise and make it work with it being respectful of Spock's character?

The basic premise is that Spock has been coopted to do the bidding of telepaths Starfleet considers the one threat to UFP existence severe enough to warrant death penalty for what Spock is attempting to achieve. How can we ever respect a traitor?

It wouldn't do to paint Starfleet as deserving of betrayal. It wouldn't do to paint the Talosians as good guys, either, because they are established as the masters of lying, and the good guy act would just establish the heroes as suckers.

Seeing Spock go through with the betrayal while also demonstrating that nothing else could ever have been done (because the Talosians are in total control over everything anyway) is just about the best we can do - the heroes all lose, but graciously, with Spock calmly and logically taking the lead and demonstrating to the rest that bowing to the overlords is not just the sensible thing to do, but the only possible thing.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[BillJ]

Story reason; Either take the smile as a consequence of Spock being young, and less able to fully control his own emotional state when surrounded by emotional Humans...or, he had gas.

In one of her books (Vulcan's Glory), DC Fontana chalked up early Spock to him trying to act human to get along with his shipmates.

 

[Timo]

He would also be aware of the fact that human hearing is inferior to Vulcan. He just might not know exactly how inferior...

Also, back in Pike's day, starships appeared to be noisy workplaces. Why, when Pike goes to warp, he has to use hand gestures to communicate with his helm officers!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[uniderth]

But didn't Starfleet already know the Talosians could communicate off world becasue The Enterprise originally received a phony distress call which was what diverted them to Talos in the first place.

 

[Timo]

Until "The Menagerie", nobody had thought that Starbase 11 would be in the danger zone. Pike was probably taking a rare shortcut from Rigel to the Vega Colony where his crew would get that acute medical help they required, and therefore flying closer to Talos than most folks; Starfleet no doubt felt that Pike had defined the maximum reach of Talosian mind powers with his flightpath, given that nobody farther out had ever been affected. That is, no planet in the human dominion was close enough to Talos to be in danger.

This may well have been a totally false conclusion. But it does appear that the Talosians had no access to humans until Pike came along (Vina may have been far too damaged to be of any use in gathering intel, or indeed dead). Else why wouldn't they have more human captives already? Why would they need to feign surprise at the revelation of human stubbornness and violence?

This then calls to question how the Talosians did reach Spock. Did some of them sneak offworld in a captured spacecraft? Did their powers reach farther out than even they themselves thought (perhaps boosted by some sort of a lingering link with the half-Vulcan)? Or did Spock decide to contact the Talosians on his own accord after hearing of Pike's plight, somehow managed to do this without Kirk noticing, and only then put the rest of his plan to action?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Gary7]

First of all, we don't know why Pike was saying "no, no" repeatedly in the beginning. I suspect it's because he didn't want Spock to risk the death penalty on his behalf! But later, the deed already done... and they're orbiting Talos IV, he agreed to go.

Remember that in the end, Commodore Mendez gives Kirk and Spock the benefit of the doubt for this occasion. Uhura reads back:

In view of historic importance of Captain Pike in space exploration, General Order Seven prohibiting contact Talos Four is suspended this occasion. No action contemplated against Spock. Proceed as you think best. Signed, Mendez, J.I., Commodore, Starbase Eleven.

So you see? The Federation was capable of forgiving them... and they even took no action against Spock for stealing a starship? That to me is just baffling.

I posit that based on how the real Commodore Mendez reacted, Spock could have put forth a good case for the conveyance of Captain Pike to Talos IV. Maybe the video they received from Talos IV couldn't reach Starbase 11... in which case, Spock would have had to obtain them in some other way and record them, to provide as evidence to Starfleet. No need to steal a starship and risk the death penalty.

I declare Spock's actions as illogical. He put Kirk and Spock's lives at risk, just to make Captain Pike happy for the remaining years of his life? It's absurd, when you look at it face value. And so... this swings around to Timo's point about the Talosians influencing Spock. This was missing from the episode but I feel it's critical to declare Spock not guilty. What would be revealed is that during a mission, the Enterprise came close enough to the region of Talos IV for Spock to be reached by the Talosians... and they screwed with his mind. Got him to put aside logic and undertake this crime of kidnapping a former starship captain and stealing a starship. In the end of the episode, Spock shows a demonstrable shift in his countenance (released from the mind control) and then is beside himself. The Talosians then reveal that they had influenced his mind to do these things, as the only way to get Captain Pike to them.

You also have to remember... now that they have him... is the lower half of his body completely destroyed? Or does he still have his male reproductive parts? If so... well... the Talosians finally got their wish.

One last point... it's kind of interesting, when you remember the Talosians in their final moments with Pike said "Your unsuitability has condemned the Talosian race to eventual death. Is this not sufficient?" "No other species has shown your degree of adaptability. You were our last hope!" 13 years later... they're still alive. Somehow. And now they'll have Pike to save them. But, what will Pike's life be like? Given his revulsion to being in a cage, wouldn't it eventually dawn on him that despite being unfettered by his physical body, he's to live out his days on Talos IV, with no contact to any other human beings, aside from Vina. I wonder if anyone has considered a novel about that.

 

[Gary7]

So, sorry, given the above - what Spock did - Stealing the Enterprise and diverting attention from stopping the ship from reaching Talos IV was perfectly in character for a logical Vulcan pursuing a goal of saving an old comrade; and giving said comrade a better quality of life <-- Which was Spock's ultimate intention.

I don't agree. He risked Captain Kirk's life just to give Captain Pike a happier life for the remainder of his years? Illogical. So you take Captain Kirk, who is a valuable asset to Starfleet, Spock's commanding officer and friend... and put him at risk with the death penalty? Yes, we realize that he intended to leave Kirk behind... but his dogged pursuit of the Enterprise forced Spock to let him aboard. Still, as Mendez said, "Captain is responsible for everything that occurs on his ship." His career would have been ruined. Pike's happiness is worth the ruining of Kirk's career and subjecting Spock to the death penalty (not to mention, a ruined career as well)?

Unless... the "death threat" wasn't to be taken seriously, but only a scare tactic. It's hard to know. We don't have enough information. But, Spock is a "by the book" kind of man. And given that... it looks to me like he committed a very illogical act that was definitely not worth the risk. Yes, we feel badly for Pike. He suffered a terrible accident and rather than being dead he's living out his days trapped in an unresponsive body. That doesn't mean his life is worth the price of both Spock and Kirk...

 

[Noname Given]

I don't agree. He risked Captain Kirk's life just to give Captain Pike a happier life for the remainder of his years? Illogical. So you take Captain Kirk, who is a valuable asset to Starfleet, Spock's commanding officer and friend... and put him at risk with the death penalty? Yes, we realize that he intended to leave Kirk behind... but his dogged pursuit of the Enterprise forced Spock to let him aboard. Still, as Mendez said, "Captain is responsible for everything that occurs on his ship." His career would have been ruined. Pike's happiness is worth the ruining of Kirk's career and subjecting Spock to the death penalty (not to mention, a ruined career as well)?

Unless... the "death threat" wasn't to be taken seriously, but only a scare tactic. It's hard to know. We don't have enough information. But, Spock is a "by the book" kind of man. And given that... it looks to me like he committed a very illogical act that was definitely not worth the risk. Yes, we feel badly for Pike. He suffered a terrible accident and rather than being dead he's living out his days trapped in an unresponsive body. That doesn't mean his life is worth the price of both Spock and Kirk...

^^^^
Well we have how the real Commodore Mendez (remember the real Mendez wasn't actually ever on the 1701 <-- That was all Talosian fiction so they wouldn't try to stop the ship) saw it in the end.

From the episode:

UHURA [OC]: Message from Starbase Eleven, sir. Received images from Talos Four. In view of historic importance of Captain Pike in space exploration, General Order Seven prohibiting contact Talos Four is suspended this occasion. No action contemplated against Spock. Proceed as you think best. Signed, Mendez, J.I., Commodore, Starbase Eleven.

^^^
And yes, I believe Spock knew everything about Captain Pike's current situation (including they didn't have the heart to retire him) before coming up with his plan; and was reasonably certain (because of the method Spock used to commandeer the 1701 - remember he din't expect Captain Kirk to come after the ship); that any punitive action taken would be against Spock alone, and Spock was okay with that.

 

[Gary7]

Well, when Kirk was on Starbase 11, he talked with the real Mendez.
KIRK: What every ship Captain knows. General Order 7, no vessel under any condition, emergency or otherwise, is to visit Talos Four.
MENDEZ: And to do so is the only death penalty left on our books. Only Fleet Command knows why. Not even this file explains that. (unlocks the magnetic strip) But it does name the only Earth ship that ever visited the planet.

So it wasn't like the Mendez on board, reminding everyone about the penalties for visiting Talos IV or even communicating with the inhabitants there, was off the mark.

But yes, he did have a change of heart in the end... which is inexplicable, because if Starfleet was so forceful about the ban on Talos IV, how would a Commodore have the ability to override that ruling? Wouldn't it take the high admiral / president of Starfleet, or at least a high ranking admiral??

Putting that issue aside, his forgiveness does lend credence to Mr. Spock taking the legal route first... trying to plead a case for Captain Pike, rather than committing crimes (theft, kidnapping).


Even Spock putting his own career and life at risk, plus risking EVERYONE ABOARD the Enterprise [remember, Spock doesn't know how genuine the Talosians were being... it could have been a trap to take everyone aboard, so the Talosians could start a real, sustainable human colony -- something which wouldn't be possible with just 2 people (sorry Creationists, who might be reading)]. This is all patently illogical. Which is why I think a Talosian influence on Spock's mind is essential to absolve him of responsibility for his actions.

 

[BillJ]

...that any punitive action taken would be against Spock alone, and Spock was okay with that.

I find it hard to believe that Kirk would've escaped unscathed from Spock's adventure. It is his ship, his first officer.

 

[Gary7]

I find it hard to believe that Kirk would've escaped unscathed from Spock's adventure. It is his ship, his first officer.

With Kirk on Starbase 11, and his ship stolen while he wasn't aboard, I think Starfleet would absolve him of any wrong doing. After all, Spock declared himself the acting Captain while initially on route to Talos IV, up until Kirk came aboard. Once Kirk was aboard, he'd be fully accountable.

But knowing Star Trek's depiction of administrations, they're not dictators or totalitarians. I suspect Kirk would have gotten leniency, even if they still considered pressing charges against Spock. "The ends does not justify the means." Remember, Kirk lost his rank as Admiral for stealing a starship... demoted to Captain. But, it was sort of a "nod, wink" affair, as they knew he wanted to be a captain once more.

 

[velour]

I don't agree. He risked Captain Kirk's life just to give Captain Pike a happier life for the remainder of his years? Illogical. So you take Captain Kirk, who is a valuable asset to Starfleet, Spock's commanding officer and friend... and put him at risk with the death penalty? Yes, we realize that he intended to leave Kirk behind... but his dogged pursuit of the Enterprise forced Spock to let him aboard. Still, as Mendez said, "Captain is responsible for everything that occurs on his ship." His career would have been ruined. Pike's happiness is worth the ruining of Kirk's career and subjecting Spock to the death penalty (not to mention, a ruined career as well)?

Unless... the "death threat" wasn't to be taken seriously, but only a scare tactic. It's hard to know. We don't have enough information. But, Spock is a "by the book" kind of man. And given that... it looks to me like he committed a very illogical act that was definitely not worth the risk. Yes, we feel badly for Pike. He suffered a terrible accident and rather than being dead he's living out his days trapped in an unresponsive body. That doesn't mean his life is worth the price of both Spock and Kirk...

It did seem illogical, especially since Spock adhered to the principle of "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few". I know the quote came much later in TWOK; but I believe that we can logically assume that Spock abided by that principle even during TOS.

It is hard to explain away Spock's actions unless, as you speculate, the Talosian manipulated Spock's mind.

 

[Timo]

First of all, we don't know why Pike was saying "no, no" repeatedly in the beginning. I suspect it's because he didn't want Spock to risk the death penalty on his behalf! But later, the deed already done... and they're orbiting Talos IV, he agreed to go.

Acknowledged. Then again, Pike agreeing should hardly be considered consent, given how Talosian powers render the concept meaningless.

Remember that in the end, Commodore Mendez gives Kirk and Spock the benefit of the doubt for this occasion.

It baffles me why the heroes should place any credence to this dubious piece of communications. Out of all the events in the adventure, this is the most likely to be a crude forgery, after all.

OTOH, "Mendez" there confesses to having monitored the proceedings. He himself thus is ripe for being marched to the gas chambers; his "pardon" of the heroes could be seen as a futile attempt at squirming out of the consequences himself, and one he no longer is authorized to take.

I posit that based on how the real Commodore Mendez reacted, Spock could have put forth a good case for the conveyance of Captain Pike to Talos IV. Maybe the video they received from Talos IV couldn't reach Starbase 11... in which case, Spock would have had to obtain them in some other way and record them, to provide as evidence to Starfleet. No need to steal a starship and risk the death penalty.

Hmh? Are you postulating that Pike never revealed those videos originally? That Starfleet agreed to killing anybody who goes to Talos IV on Pike's personal say-so without getting a satisfactory answer to the question "why"? It sounds more likely that this Admiral Comsol and quite a few others had already reviewed the full material and decided to impose the quarantine - and to keep low-ranking people like Mendez in the dark for their own safety.

Spock revealing the video material (which adds very little to what Pike would have told his superiors in detail, save for a couple of bits on Talosians in their cave that have no credibility because Pike could not have commented on their veracity and the Talosians providing the bits would serve no purpose) would just add another violation to his list of wrongdoings. Undermining GO7 might not carry the death penalty, but it would still have consequences, given how strongly Starfleet felt about GO7.

I declare Spock's actions as illogical. He put Kirk and Spock's lives at risk, just to make Captain Pike happy for the remaining years of his life?

His own life would not be a factor, and Kirk was in no jeopardy until he chose to blackmail Spock with suicide. It's the other 428 lives aboard that Spock was toying with...

It's absurd, when you look at it face value. And so... this swings around to Timo's point about the Talosians influencing Spock. This was missing from the episode but I feel it's critical to declare Spock not guilty.

That's one way to put a different spin to the episode, even without altering the demonstrated facts. Another is to declare Spock as guilty as all hell, and then redefine his crime as heroic, logical and necessary - it put an end to the GO7 nonsense, after all, by demonstrating that Talos either was no threat or then was a threat Starfleet could do absolutely nothing about, and certainly shouldn't kill its own people over it. After all, just a few years later, GO7 no longer carries the death penalty (GO4 does).

You also have to remember... now that they have him... is the lower half of his body completely destroyed? Or does he still have his male reproductive parts? If so... well... the Talosians finally got their wish.

Only assuming they still had Vina. Provided they ever had Vina in the first place, that is. Her damaged state may have been a lie designed to elicit sympathy from Pike so that he wouldn't terminate the Talosian species there and then. Or then it was a lie in the other direction, and Vina in fact was long dead, or at least fat beyond the point where she could still have carried babies to term, necessitating the capture of the Enterprise women.

That the Talosians wanted a slave race in the first place is also extremely dubious. But at least we can assume it may have been their true goal. If so, taking Pike is not particularly relevant, as they could have taken dozens of Kirk's finest without him noticing anything, and thereby created a truly viable breeding stock rather than having to rely on two elderly cripples.

One last point... it's kind of interesting, when you remember the Talosians in their final moments with Pike said "Your unsuitability has condemned the Talosian race to eventual death. Is this not sufficient?" "No other species has shown your degree of adaptability. You were our last hope!" 13 years later... they're still alive. Somehow.

I doubt 13 years would yet make much of a difference either way. We get no lifespan estimates for the individuals of the species, or a good indication of the exact nature of their plight, so "eventual" might loom beyond a horizon of centuries if not millennia.

And now they'll have Pike to save them. But, what will Pike's life be like? Given his revulsion to being in a cage, wouldn't it eventually dawn on him that despite being unfettered by his physical body, he's to live out his days on Talos IV, with no contact to any other human beings, aside from Vina. I wonder if anyone has considered a novel about that.

I guess it would have some characteristics of The Never-Ending Sacrifice - iteration after iteration of Pike realizing he is in living hell, screaming a lot, and being provided a mental pacifier by his keepers...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Noname Given]

It did seem illogical, especially since Spock adhered to the principle of "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few". I know the quote came much later in TWOK; but I believe that we can logically assume that Spock abided by that principle even during TOS.

It is hard to explain away Spock's actions unless, as you speculate, the Talosian manipulated Spock's mind.

^^^
Well, you forget Kirk's reply at the end of STIV:TVH:

SPOCK: ...You came back for me.
KIRK: You would have done the same for me.
SPOCK: Why would you do this?
KIRK: Because the needs of the one ...outweigh the needs of the many.

IMO - I think even on Vulcan prior to this that Axiom worked BOTH ways.

 

[Poltargyst]

It might even have been amusing to see Spock haggling over price with some weird looking alien in a bar.

Alien: Place *you* name, money *I* name, otherwise bargain, no.
Spock: Very well. It is Talos IV
Alien: Talos IV?
Spock: Indeed, Talos IV
Alien: Talos IV allowed is not! Is planet forbidden!

 

[marlboro]

Wouldn't if have been easier for the Talosians just to trick Kirk into thinking they were going to Risa, or something? They were just shown as being too powerful, imo. It makes Spock having to come up with such an elaborate scheme kind of pointless when they can do the things they do.

I could have done without the "It's the only death penalty crime on the books - but we'll ignore it this time" ending, too. How would the Talosians convincing a respected Star Fleet officer to hijack his ship and "kidnap" his disabled former captain make the Federation less terrified of their influence?

Overall a fun episode, though. And a commendable effort to incorporate the pilot footage. I still prefer The Cage, however.