So during the Dominion War, it became obvious ships like the Miranda and her type/era were death traps, what is the chances that those used in the war on the front lines were actually automated instead of crewed as there was more of a chance they would be targeted and so were used as diversions instead?
Miranda Class in the Dominion War.
- Thread starter ash's boomstick
- Start date
They are fairly old starships by the 2370s.
But they still combat worthy ships in a desperate war for the Alpha Quadrant. It seems Starfleet had a bunch of them around as they still have Miranda-class starship all the way up to the end of the war, even with all the loses over the years of combat. They had lots in several battles with maybe a dozen on screen at a time along with lots of Excelsiors, and similar numbers of Akiras, Sabers, some Steamrunners and a number of Galaxy-class starships with USS Defiant and maybe some Centaur-types or a Nebula-class from time to time.
But they still combat worthy ships in a desperate war for the Alpha Quadrant. It seems Starfleet had a bunch of them around as they still have Miranda-class starship all the way up to the end of the war, even with all the loses over the years of combat. They had lots in several battles with maybe a dozen on screen at a time along with lots of Excelsiors, and similar numbers of Akiras, Sabers, some Steamrunners and a number of Galaxy-class starships with USS Defiant and maybe some Centaur-types or a Nebula-class from time to time.
They are a sturdy and reliable platform... just rather old, and presumably, slower. Shields may have been upgraded over time; phasers not so much (no strips)
And as, I suspect, one of the most widely constructed and utilized ship designs in the history of the fleet... plus a pretty reliable one, there was little reason NOT to use them. Though maybe not, unsupported, maybe.
The Sabre and Steamrunner do seem somewhat designed to replace it, though. And depending on your view... maybe the Norway?
And as, I suspect, one of the most widely constructed and utilized ship designs in the history of the fleet... plus a pretty reliable one, there was little reason NOT to use them. Though maybe not, unsupported, maybe.
The Sabre and Steamrunner do seem somewhat designed to replace it, though. And depending on your view... maybe the Norway?
The only reason why the Miranda class was part of the Dominion war fleets was because AMT made a model kit of the Reliant in 1995, which the DS9 production used as background ships (one was docked at DS9 at the end of 'Way of the Warrior,' several were used as far background ships orbiting Starbase 375, and were also used for the attack fleet at the end of 'A Call to Arms.') When the transition to CGI happened, they scanned the original filming model (which they still possessed but weren't filming anymore) into a CGI model to maintain consistency with the model kit shots.
The B-52 is still flying after nearly 70 years and expected to serve until the 2050s, so it will be 100 years for that type. You can keep upgrading the avionics, the weapons, etc. I assume the 2370s Mirandas are more advanced than the 2280s versions, and tougher for that reason.
We've seen Oberths with a crew of 5, so it's possible a Miranda may only have 20 crew or fewer on board. And is it really more of a deathtrap than being on a Peregrine fighter or a Runabout?
I believe that all three designs were built to fight the Borg. We first see them fighting a Borg cube.
There have been several different size estimates for Sabres. Somebody pointed out that a smaller size results in volume/tonnage similar to a Miranda. So I can see this class remaining in production post war, to fill the gaps caused by enormous losses.
Steamrunners and Norway seem to be larger, in frigate to light cruiser sizes. I can imagine that the few that survived the war would be held in reserve, in an anti-Borg task force.
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Sometimes I wonder if those classes were designed to fight the Borg, or if they were designed to fight the Cardassians (there had been a low key border war going on for over twenty years by that point). Most of the newer designs had hull numbers that fit the 2250s, or pre-Galaxy-class at least.
I get the feeling that most of the ships that fought in the Cardassian wars were the Excelsiors and Mirandas (and the kitbashes like the Curry, Centaur & Raging Queen) while the newer Galaxy-type ships like the Springfield, Challenger, Cheyenne, etc. were built later for more peacetime space exploration. I think the Akira, Steamrunner, Saber and Norway classes were built specifically to fight the Borg (a result of what Shelby said about ‘we’ll have the fleet back in less than a year.’)
Honestly, the Miranda class didn't seem any more of a death trap to work on compared to other ships.
Miranda's weren't the sole exclusions which were easy to destroy, nor was it destroyed in seemingly large quantities.
All other ship classes pretty much ended up destroyed from receiving enough firepower (just like the Miranda).
You have to remember that DS9 didn't want to render shield FX for every ship in the fleet because of long render times, and the Mirandas were 'stock ships' which the production team just liked to use that much.
I suspect that much like the USS Lakota, all Excelsiors and Miranda class ships underwent same upgrades before the war began because SF wanted to be ready in case it broke out.
In that respect, I don't think they were any less capable than other or modern ship classes. They may have had lesser overall coverage compared to modern ships with phaser strips, but overall, they had to be thoroughly upgraded to fight in the war (otherwise I doubt SF would have allowed them to fight in the first plac - the only exception being SF being caught with their pants down with a surprise attack by the Borg which wouldn't give them time to prepare, but in all honesty, the Borg at the time assimilated Picard and had the benefit of his knowledge - besides, they had a couple of years prior to the start of the war to upgrade their ships, and SF was on heightened alert ever since the Dominion destroyed the Odyssey (I suspect the USS Lakota was first showing of those upgrades to existing older classes which signalled that SF was already ready by this point - plus DS9 itself underwent heavy upgrades prior to the war too - it started off as an outpost with minimal shields and weapons, and then got upgraded throughout Season 3 to a highly fortified starbase which necessitated over 50 ships to breach its defences - in this regard, SF was probably heavily upgrading all ships in the fleet and in the process, greatly extended the lifespan of older classes - which also may have spurred their interest in keeping the classes alive in the future).
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I've always thought the Nebula class was the 2360s successor to the Miranda class, similar compact arrangement with variable payload pods on the roll-bar. I like to think there was an unseen class contemporaneous with the Ambassador that may have had a similar layout with features from that era.
The Federation is a huge conglomeration, and need ships.
Now, lets say they made 1000 miranda's from 2275 to 2295, like most ships and airplanes there would be different "Blocks" like a F-16 Block 60 is the current build even though the F-16 as a platform has been in production for over 40 years.
So as the ships, not just the Miranda, age, the get the occasional refit, new power systems etc. but some of the older block 10's and 20's you can only refit so much, so as they age out, they are given to individual planets space navy's, something like the National Guard or Reserves. There still servicable as ships against pirates, border ships etc. An Old ship is better than NO ship.
Now the latter blocks of Mirandas are still serving in the main fleet, doing, whatever there doing, but when the WAR came along, all the individual planets navy's donated ships to bulk up the fleet, of course keeping some for there own protection.
As for Crew, there was alot of automation, so you may have a crew of at most 50? Enough to do some crew rotations, but if something really broke on it, its out.
The ones comeing from the reserves were probably "Refreshed" at a space dock, given as many new systems and automation as possible, upgraded weapons, like being able to fire quantum torpedoes, etc.
So to me, thats why you see a lot of Miranda's and excelsiors because there older "Mothballed" or Reserve Fleet ships that were reactivated when the war started. Some of the older ships that might have more damage or old age, but still had servicable parts, were converted over to the frankienstien fleet.
Now, lets say they made 1000 miranda's from 2275 to 2295, like most ships and airplanes there would be different "Blocks" like a F-16 Block 60 is the current build even though the F-16 as a platform has been in production for over 40 years.
So as the ships, not just the Miranda, age, the get the occasional refit, new power systems etc. but some of the older block 10's and 20's you can only refit so much, so as they age out, they are given to individual planets space navy's, something like the National Guard or Reserves. There still servicable as ships against pirates, border ships etc. An Old ship is better than NO ship.
Now the latter blocks of Mirandas are still serving in the main fleet, doing, whatever there doing, but when the WAR came along, all the individual planets navy's donated ships to bulk up the fleet, of course keeping some for there own protection.
As for Crew, there was alot of automation, so you may have a crew of at most 50? Enough to do some crew rotations, but if something really broke on it, its out.
The ones comeing from the reserves were probably "Refreshed" at a space dock, given as many new systems and automation as possible, upgraded weapons, like being able to fire quantum torpedoes, etc.
So to me, thats why you see a lot of Miranda's and excelsiors because there older "Mothballed" or Reserve Fleet ships that were reactivated when the war started. Some of the older ships that might have more damage or old age, but still had servicable parts, were converted over to the frankienstien fleet.
They liked to use them because there was a huge glut of Reliant model kits available at the time. Image G would build tons of them and use them for background shots. If AMT had decided to produce the Enterprise-C model kit back in 1995 instead of the Reliant, we would have seen tons of Ambassador class ships in the far background instead
Yep, the fandom 'Apollo class' has this exact layout.
According to what we saw in TNG, they were relegated to transport duty and science duty with very minimal crews for the amount of space the ships had.
I think the Frankenstein fleet were classes in their own right, and not cobbled together from random out-of-scale parts.
Some of the "Frankenstein Fleet" are a bit more credible as classes in their own right that others IMO.
I respect your opinion.
One thing we DO know: The Centaur type is definitely its own class, as tons of them were seen in PRO.
Yeah, the Centaur-class would have been my first pick for "legit class in their own right" from that list.
The Jupp (Connie variant with two Constellation-style nacelles) also seems plausible as an old, most likely recommissioned from the scrapyard, rather than cobbled together.
The Curry and Raging Queen might "actually" look at least a different in terms of scaling and the like, but is sorta plausible as a legit design given that its made up of Connie Refit, Miranda and Excelsior parts so is roughly from the same "generation". I'm a little split on these.
OTOH, the "Elkins-type" is very suspect and I have my doubts about the "three-nacelled Excelsior" (USS Huztel?), but fortunately the latter never appeared on screen so we can probably ignore it.
The Yeager-type OTOH, is a blatant kit-bash to the extent of being almost ludicrous when viewed from an in-universe perspective.
The Jupp (Connie variant with two Constellation-style nacelles) also seems plausible as an old, most likely recommissioned from the scrapyard, rather than cobbled together.
The Curry and Raging Queen might "actually" look at least a different in terms of scaling and the like, but is sorta plausible as a legit design given that its made up of Connie Refit, Miranda and Excelsior parts so is roughly from the same "generation". I'm a little split on these.
OTOH, the "Elkins-type" is very suspect and I have my doubts about the "three-nacelled Excelsior" (USS Huztel?), but fortunately the latter never appeared on screen so we can probably ignore it.
The Yeager-type OTOH, is a blatant kit-bash to the extent of being almost ludicrous when viewed from an in-universe perspective.
I would think that given the duration and the scale of the war, that atleast "Some" frankenstiening" would be going on just to fill up the fleet numbers. Give it an Engine and some nacelles and whatever saucer for minimal crew and send it on its way. Just look at what "Supposedly" happened with the Luna Titan and Connie trois with the part taking.
I would think that with the war, and if they had the CGI tech they have now, they would have shown in the fleet shots ships that still had battle damage, or big patches, or different nacelles on ships say like some Excellsior nacelles on an ambassador etc. especially when they got to the end of war when they were just repairing as fast as they could to get ship numbers out there.
Would be a good "Short Trek" episode showing a commander, taking command of a pieced together Miranda and showing them getting the ship up to snuff and a few fleet raids. Maybe something of a Rogue One show with the going out in a blaze of glory.
I would think that with the war, and if they had the CGI tech they have now, they would have shown in the fleet shots ships that still had battle damage, or big patches, or different nacelles on ships say like some Excellsior nacelles on an ambassador etc. especially when they got to the end of war when they were just repairing as fast as they could to get ship numbers out there.
Would be a good "Short Trek" episode showing a commander, taking command of a pieced together Miranda and showing them getting the ship up to snuff and a few fleet raids. Maybe something of a Rogue One show with the going out in a blaze of glory.
The Elkins wasn’t on screen either.
