Can someone tell me about micro photon torpedoes, what are the dimensions of a micro torpedo, explosive power and are they effective weapons?
James
James
Micro Photon Torpedoes
- Thread starter James Wright
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Garrovick
Guest
The DS9 Tech Manual dreamed up the microtorps because the authors thought that there was a dramatic need for the small runabouts to have torpedoes, and because they realized that full-sized torps (torps the size of the casings seen in the movies) would be awkward. Perhaps such a suggestion was already there in the DS9 writers' guide, too?
However, the writers never put those microtorps to any sort of onscreen use. The runabouts fired projectiles in only three occasions:
* In "Past Prologue" the villain loaded an explosive charge to a front cabin underfloor assembly of some sort, and it then was ejected forward from under the cabin.
* In "Vortex" a beacon was fired from some sort of a silo atop the spine of the craft.
* In "The Search II" four torpedoes screamed out from somewhere beneath the craft, in pairs suggesting side-by-side launch.
The authors of the Tech Manual suggested that the 13 cm long microtorps fired from the stub wings flanking the cabin, but no fire has ever come out of those things. Even the supposed phaser strips there are underused: forward phaser blasts tend to come from the strips atop the nacelle front ends.
In terms of onscreen canon, it seems as if there could be a microtorp/microprobe launcher under the cabin floor, but it doesn't seem to be a practical weapon at all, or at least is never ever used in combat. It also seems that it's possible to load up the craft with regular torpedoes in dedicated drop bays in the amidship section (as also mentioned in the Manual), and that this is what Sisko used in "The Search II" when destroying the wormhole in the dream sequence. This is probably also what was meant in the dialogue of "Jem'Hadar" where O'Brien said he would arm the runabouts with torpedoes for the upcoming fight: he installed the amidship module that would feature the drop bays for the full-size torps. It's just that the fight took place at such close ranges that neither the runabouts nor the Odyssey got a chance to fire any torps...
The fancy dorsal module on twin supports doesn't seem to fire anything, but it could be an important targeting device for firing the full-size torps. Perhaps at least one craft in a formation needs to carry that thing if the craft are to fire torpedoes?
Timo Saloniemi
However, the writers never put those microtorps to any sort of onscreen use. The runabouts fired projectiles in only three occasions:
* In "Past Prologue" the villain loaded an explosive charge to a front cabin underfloor assembly of some sort, and it then was ejected forward from under the cabin.
* In "Vortex" a beacon was fired from some sort of a silo atop the spine of the craft.
* In "The Search II" four torpedoes screamed out from somewhere beneath the craft, in pairs suggesting side-by-side launch.
The authors of the Tech Manual suggested that the 13 cm long microtorps fired from the stub wings flanking the cabin, but no fire has ever come out of those things. Even the supposed phaser strips there are underused: forward phaser blasts tend to come from the strips atop the nacelle front ends.
In terms of onscreen canon, it seems as if there could be a microtorp/microprobe launcher under the cabin floor, but it doesn't seem to be a practical weapon at all, or at least is never ever used in combat. It also seems that it's possible to load up the craft with regular torpedoes in dedicated drop bays in the amidship section (as also mentioned in the Manual), and that this is what Sisko used in "The Search II" when destroying the wormhole in the dream sequence. This is probably also what was meant in the dialogue of "Jem'Hadar" where O'Brien said he would arm the runabouts with torpedoes for the upcoming fight: he installed the amidship module that would feature the drop bays for the full-size torps. It's just that the fight took place at such close ranges that neither the runabouts nor the Odyssey got a chance to fire any torps...
The fancy dorsal module on twin supports doesn't seem to fire anything, but it could be an important targeting device for firing the full-size torps. Perhaps at least one craft in a formation needs to carry that thing if the craft are to fire torpedoes?
Timo Saloniemi
^^ I don't know if this helps much, but one would assume that microtorps are similar to the photon grenades used in TOS 'Arena'? In fact, now that I think about it, the anti-matter container seen in 'Obsession' was propobly a TOS equivalent of a torpedo casing? Or, better yet, perhaps one or more of these globes would fit inside a TWOK type torpedo casing, 'egg carton' style, this would allow variable yield torpedos just by varying the number of globes it contains?
Well, if the microtorps are 13 centimeters long, they could probably still hold about a quarter kilogram of matter/antimatter (in a warhead the size of a soda can) with limited range and guidance capabilities.
In my own fan projects I've toyed with the idea that the rollbar thing on the top of the ship would be a single-shot torpedo launcher that reloads though a transporter/replicator-like device. The older model would simply beam torpedoes from a magazine into the launcher, while the newer one would make use of Rom's "self replicating mine" idea and simply manufacture torpedoes right in the launcher and fire them off.
Of course, there's one other thing to consider about torpedoes in general. We have only ONCE seen an intact photon torpedo after its actual launch--Spock's coffin--and in this case the launch effects were very different from normal. It's possible that what we normally think of as the torpedo casing is actually some kind of sabot/encapsulation that contains the REAL weapon and aids in its launch, and maybe even helps contain the potentially volatile warhead and protect handlers from radiation (think of the large cylindrical cases for sub-launched Exocet missiles). In that sense, the actual photon torpedo might well be spherical, as I've often theorized: maybe a basketball-sized terminal stage with thrusters lined along the surface. Something that size could easily launch from the ports on the bottom of the runabout, you'd just have to come up with a new kind of launch system that doesn't use the loading capsule.
In my own fan projects I've toyed with the idea that the rollbar thing on the top of the ship would be a single-shot torpedo launcher that reloads though a transporter/replicator-like device. The older model would simply beam torpedoes from a magazine into the launcher, while the newer one would make use of Rom's "self replicating mine" idea and simply manufacture torpedoes right in the launcher and fire them off.
Of course, there's one other thing to consider about torpedoes in general. We have only ONCE seen an intact photon torpedo after its actual launch--Spock's coffin--and in this case the launch effects were very different from normal. It's possible that what we normally think of as the torpedo casing is actually some kind of sabot/encapsulation that contains the REAL weapon and aids in its launch, and maybe even helps contain the potentially volatile warhead and protect handlers from radiation (think of the large cylindrical cases for sub-launched Exocet missiles). In that sense, the actual photon torpedo might well be spherical, as I've often theorized: maybe a basketball-sized terminal stage with thrusters lined along the surface. Something that size could easily launch from the ports on the bottom of the runabout, you'd just have to come up with a new kind of launch system that doesn't use the loading capsule.
Few points:
The DS9 TM suggests that microtorpedoes are essentially just a mini fusion thruster with an equally mini warhead, and the warhead can be configured a number of ways, such as with chemical explosives or gases or what have you. I guess it was intentional that no mention was made of antimatter; antimatter containment seems tricky to miniaturize and I don't know if we've seen anything that suggests they are "there" yet technologically and/or willing to accept the risk. 13.3 centimeters minus the room for fusion thruster and computer whatnot makes for an awfully mini antimatter storage...
As for the pod on top of the runabout, I'm not sure where the idea that it has much to do with torpedoes came from, as I am pretty sure it was never shown firing any; I understand and support the idea that the torpedoes would be dropped from the modules that mount along the centerline, and while the pod is probably an AWACS-type sensor thing and might help by relaying better info to the torpedoes while they try to go where they will do the most work, it wouldn't seem necessary.
In "The Search, Part II" when the runabout fired torpedoes, they seemed to come from underneath:
Unless these were meant to be microtorpedoes (and I don't really think so but I can't be sure) I suspect they are being deployed from ventral hatches of some kind in the modules mounted aft of the cockpit.
The microtorpedo launchers are actually on the physical runabout model, so at least we have some idea where they were supposed to be.
The DS9 TM suggests that microtorpedoes are essentially just a mini fusion thruster with an equally mini warhead, and the warhead can be configured a number of ways, such as with chemical explosives or gases or what have you. I guess it was intentional that no mention was made of antimatter; antimatter containment seems tricky to miniaturize and I don't know if we've seen anything that suggests they are "there" yet technologically and/or willing to accept the risk. 13.3 centimeters minus the room for fusion thruster and computer whatnot makes for an awfully mini antimatter storage...
As for the pod on top of the runabout, I'm not sure where the idea that it has much to do with torpedoes came from, as I am pretty sure it was never shown firing any; I understand and support the idea that the torpedoes would be dropped from the modules that mount along the centerline, and while the pod is probably an AWACS-type sensor thing and might help by relaying better info to the torpedoes while they try to go where they will do the most work, it wouldn't seem necessary.
In "The Search, Part II" when the runabout fired torpedoes, they seemed to come from underneath:
Unless these were meant to be microtorpedoes (and I don't really think so but I can't be sure) I suspect they are being deployed from ventral hatches of some kind in the modules mounted aft of the cockpit.
The microtorpedo launchers are actually on the physical runabout model, so at least we have some idea where they were supposed to be.
According to an interview I read on designing the DS9 weapons for "The Way of the Warrior" battle, the torpedos fired from turrets on the station's weapon sails are micro-torpedos
Completely forgot that one!Anybody have a screencap that would show where those torps emerged from? At least one of the shots, against the Jem'Hadar on the Engineering balcony, shows the micro-runabout nicely in side profile... Perhaps we could see whether the torp comes from underneath the bow, the midhull, from the cheeks?
Timo Saloniemi
I've been toying with an idea to have redesigned photon torpedoes mounted in some sort of pod under the wings and fuselage of a fighter, I'd heard microtorpedoes mentioned on DS9 and wanted to see if anyone knew anything about them!?
James
James
Iirc, the TNGTM suggests this sort of approach, but (also iirc) they have the packets far too large. The reaction area of matter and antimatter coming into contact is really shallow, since the annihilation reaction produces gamma rays and blows up the whole assemlby within a few milligrams or less of combination. The vast majority of the payload would be wasted just by jamming grams of matter into antimatter, except in the case of an in-atmosphere detonation.
I suspect the packets are actually extraordinarily tiny, maybe micrograms in mass, fired into each other simultaneously by a very precise mechanism at the same exact time.
So in regards to JNG's point, I think they can confine amounts of antimatter of arbitrary size. At any rate, we have single-atom ion traps today if I'm not mistaken.
One might argue that the technology to forcefield-compartmentalize tiny packets of antimatter is really cutting edge even in the 24th century. This would explain why torpedoes are a rare commodity even aboard starships equipped with replicators (VOY), and why the Maquis could plausibly wish to steal empty warheads (DS9 "Tribunal"): the checkerboard forcefield is a precision instrument that is hideously difficult and expensive to manufacture.
Back in TOS, the technology was not up to such efficient mixing of matter and antimatter, so we got visually more impressive bangs that still had less destructive oomph. And the seeming downscaling of destructiveness from TOS to TOS movies to TNG would be a technological step forward.
Timo Saloniemi
Back in TOS, the technology was not up to such efficient mixing of matter and antimatter, so we got visually more impressive bangs that still had less destructive oomph. And the seeming downscaling of destructiveness from TOS to TOS movies to TNG would be a technological step forward.
Timo Saloniemi
Omega_Glory
Commodore
Photon greanades were just round balls, probably without a propulsion system. The tube likely provided that.
The container seen in "Obsession" was just a mag bottle with anti-grav support.
Anybody have a screencap that would show where those torps emerged from? At least one of the shots, against the Jem'Hadar on the Engineering balcony, shows the micro-runabout nicely in side profile... Perhaps we could see whether the torp comes from underneath the bow, the midhull, from the cheeks?
Timo Saloniemi
I was just watching that episode, funnily enough.
Without further ado...
It looks like it's coming out of the starboard flank of the ship, and it hits the Jem'Hadar on his left shoulder.
Impossible to say with this one, but it's here for completion's sake.
It looks to emerge fairly central here. But as with the first shot, the ship turns to port after firing, which makes it appear as though the torpedo is fired from the starboard.
I don't think there's any conclusive evidence, but it looks like the intention was for the torpedoes to be fired from the "cheeks".
Don't the attack fighters in Sacrifice of Angels battle fire torpedoes? Data's scoutship in Insurrection seemed to have a pair on launchers either side of the cockpit which could easily have been microtorpedo launchers.
Personally, I kind of like to think of mounting a microtorpedo launcher under the barrel of a TR-116 rifle a la M-16/M-203 combination...
There's a reason the Army doesn't really field Davey Crocketts.
Then again, for all we know personal phasers already have an antimatter power source (they wouldn't take seconds to "overload" but perhaps that's just a safety feature, the shrill sound they make likewise). They've got to power that particle accelerator somehow.
Microtorpedoes with chemical or gas warheads, as described in the DS9 TM, would probably work pretty well launched from some sort of man-portable device. If the mini fusion thruster contributes directly to the explosive yield, I am not sure to what extent they could make that contribution variable. I would tend to expect that they could...somewhat.
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