Lost Fed' ships.
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^^^At least 3,000 ships i would think. We only directly saw just a few major battles of the war; who knows how many other battles took place that the DS9 crew didn't take part in. Hell, who knows how bloody the Battle of Betazed was ...
And are we counting the events of First Contact, since that took place during the war?
And are we counting the events of First Contact, since that took place during the war?
Nope because it didn't take place during the war. Sisko makes a reference to that battle before the war started.
We saw only a few battle and even that we have no idea to the losses suffered. I think one of the only solidly started numbers was the 98 ships lost by the 7th fleet a Tyra. Other then that you had the 311 ships lost at the second battle of Chin'toka, though we don't know how many of these ships were Federation. Plus I don't think they counted the ships lost when the Dominion initially broke the Alliance lines in two places...I think that number was in relation to the number of vessels lost due to the Breen energy dampening weapon. Then you have the 30% losses in the final battle, though we have no idea how many ships were involved and what percentage of them were Federation vessels (or if one side took particularly heavy losses, the Romulans sounded like they did as they managed to loss their flagship and their entire line was collapsing at one point).
If you want I can give you a link to a complete non-canon RPG sourcebook by Last Unicorn games that was based on the Dominion War. It gives some numbers, but they are just guesses as well.
Oh ok. Thanks for the correction. I guess the one thing we can agree on is that the Fed. did lose a lot of ships. Makes me wonder how big Starfleet was before the war, and how many ships were built in the years before, during, and right after the war ...
The timeline is a bit odd because I think Sisko make the comment before the actual battle is meant to happen. But the stardate used for the battle against the borg is before the stardate that the Dominion war begins. This is all based on stuff from MemoryAlpha.
I can't remember where I read this but I think someone connected to the show guessed that Starfleet had around 8,000 ships (pre-war) when he was asked. You do see that figure a lot around the net. That really isn't many ships for the size of the Federation, it explains why the Enterprise was so frequently the "only ship in the sector"!
You would think that after Worf 359 that Starfleet would have upped its production of ships out of fear of another Borg attack. Then you have the Dominion a few years later, which wouldn't have slowed down production. As for during the war, the Feds and Klingons hit Dominion shipyards hard so you would think the the Dominion returned the favour, plus Vreenek said something along the lines that Starfleet's shipyards were damaged or not operating at 100%. After the war you would have Starfleet rushing to build its fleet back up, especially if Command is of similar thinking to Section 31 and that war with the Romulans is just over the horizon.
War time production couldn't have been too bad if they managed to get a replacement for the Defiant as quickly as they did. In all respects Sisko has a station to command so he really shouldn't be the first person to get their hands on a new ship, plus DS9 seemed to be well defended by all those shots he had at the end of episodes that showed vessels patrolling around the station.
Which is why I like to think that Starfleet had close 10,000 ships by the time the war started. Then consider that the Klingons and Romulans probably have similar sized fleets, about 7,000 each. Section 31 believed the Klingons wouldn't be a problem for 10 years IIRC, afterall they did take a beating, and the Romulans didn't enter the war until a year after it began, which would be in line with S31 thinking the Romulans and Federation would be at war because they'd be the strongest after the war and on more even footing (Starfleet was getting slaughtered prior to the destruction of the Dominion's Argolis sensor array, a higher percentage of their losses occurred in this period because of that.)
I think the only thing that can be truly ascertained from the war is that Starfleet is going to come out of it a lot more advanced and more powerful than they went into it.
My reason for that thinking is it seems that a very large portion of the fleet was made up of century old ships that were still in service or built newly as 'exploratory' vessels such as Miranda and Excelsior class ships.
I'd bet that Starfleet would be relying on significantly newer ship designs during the reconstruction of the fleet after the war.
My reason for that thinking is it seems that a very large portion of the fleet was made up of century old ships that were still in service or built newly as 'exploratory' vessels such as Miranda and Excelsior class ships.
I'd bet that Starfleet would be relying on significantly newer ship designs during the reconstruction of the fleet after the war.
I can vaguely remember a line from an episode near the end where Gowron starts going insane where it states the Klingons have 1800 ships left... or something. Thats the only solid fleet figure I know of. Surely Starfleet can't have 5-10 times more unless the Klingons have suffered catastrophic losses.
IIRC, that was just the BoPs. I'm sure that the Klingons had a lot more ships in other sectors that we didn't know about.
Shameless, you've got your wires crossed. That figure was a general figure and not specific to any one type of ship.
The quote was from "Dogs of War" or whatever the episode after "Changing Face of Good and Evil" was called.
Martok states that within a day he can have 1,500 warships modified and on the frontlines.
They way I understand that statement is that this is not the entire Klingon fleet, just the number of ships that can be ready within a day.
As for Klingon casualties, they might be higher then Starfleet's because of the Klingon nature. They tend to be rash and live to die an honourable death. In situations where Federation crews would retreat to fight another day, a Klingon crew might stay on and die, which would make them really happy.
The statement might well refer to BoPs only, of course. After all, the one and only ship type for which they knew that the anti-Breen modification would work was the BoP. Whereas Martok says that "every ship" in their fleet would be modified, he may simply be using shorthand for "every ship suitable for modification". Only Romulan and Federation designs are said to be categorically incompatible with the changes, but I'd expect there to be technological differences within the Klingon fleet as well.
Certainly agreed that 1,500 ships isn't the entire Klingon fleet - or that the fleet that Martok speaks of is not the entire Klingon naval strength. But it may be that a larger part of the Klingon naval strength than of Starfleet was at the DS9 theater of war at that time, because Klingons would love to take part in offensive operations and the recently failed Chin'toka operation was one of those. The Feds might be more defensively spread.
Timo Saloniemi
Certainly agreed that 1,500 ships isn't the entire Klingon fleet - or that the fleet that Martok speaks of is not the entire Klingon naval strength. But it may be that a larger part of the Klingon naval strength than of Starfleet was at the DS9 theater of war at that time, because Klingons would love to take part in offensive operations and the recently failed Chin'toka operation was one of those. The Feds might be more defensively spread.
Timo Saloniemi
Oh, and regarding the loss of ships in Trek battles in general...
Even back in TOS or TNG, when the only type of starship loss the producers could afford to show was a stock explosion superimposed on the miniature, we extremely seldom saw total ship losses even when we saw total crew losses. The Constellation and the Excalibur in TOS were still structurally more or less intact. The vessels carved up by the Borg in "BoBW"/"Emissary" had most of their hulls remaining in some form or another, even if holed and/or on fire. It was a major event if a big starship somehow blew up for good, as in "Contagion" (or, supposedly, "Cause and Effect"). For all intents and purposes, I would think it worth the effort for Starfleet to recover and rebuild all the ships whose wreckages we witnessed. And indeed there might be some reason to think that this took place, such as the reappearance of USS Ahwahnee after her Wolf 359 loss...
Moving onto the Dominion War, in "Pale Moonlight", the wall chart listing crew losses aboard various starships never seems to account for all the hundreds of people supposedly aboard such a vessel. It looks as if the usual fate for a starship that loses a battle is a certain amount of damage and crew loss, quite possibly followed by later recovery so that the ship may fight another day (because even though we can't really read the crew names on that wall chart, the ship names stay the same!
). Also, when we see these massive fleet battles up close, we witness capital ship or space fortress beam weapons carve sections out of other capital ships - but we see very few stock footage explosions or other "clean ends" to the big ships. Quite often there is a spinning yet largely intact wreck left behind. Yes, this is but an enjoyable artifact of the advances made in visual effects after TOS and TNG. But it is also a general fact of the Star Trek universe, not countermanded by visual evidence from the TOS and TNG days because the writers of those shows steered away from showing such impossible-to-film scenes.
So it may well be that the number of starships actually lost (as in, too far gone to be repaired for later action) in the Dominion War, and in Trek combat in general, would be relatively low. Small ship types like BoPs would perish completely, but anything bigger than a Miranda would have a fair chance of limping home, or being towed home at least.
Add to this the fact that we don't really hear of Starfleet managing to build any replacement ships for its war losses, save perhaps for the Sao Paulo / second [/i]Defiant[/i]; and the fact that we never see ships with registries higher than that of the prewar-built Voyager; and the backstage ideas that starship construction may well take half a decade. Quite possibly Starfleet never managed to build any casualty replacements at all, or then only succeeded in fielding the first ones when the war was almost over and the camera was concentrating on the DS9 "side theater" where older ships formed the bulk of the force.
Timo Saloniemi
Even back in TOS or TNG, when the only type of starship loss the producers could afford to show was a stock explosion superimposed on the miniature, we extremely seldom saw total ship losses even when we saw total crew losses. The Constellation and the Excalibur in TOS were still structurally more or less intact. The vessels carved up by the Borg in "BoBW"/"Emissary" had most of their hulls remaining in some form or another, even if holed and/or on fire. It was a major event if a big starship somehow blew up for good, as in "Contagion" (or, supposedly, "Cause and Effect"). For all intents and purposes, I would think it worth the effort for Starfleet to recover and rebuild all the ships whose wreckages we witnessed. And indeed there might be some reason to think that this took place, such as the reappearance of USS Ahwahnee after her Wolf 359 loss...
Moving onto the Dominion War, in "Pale Moonlight", the wall chart listing crew losses aboard various starships never seems to account for all the hundreds of people supposedly aboard such a vessel. It looks as if the usual fate for a starship that loses a battle is a certain amount of damage and crew loss, quite possibly followed by later recovery so that the ship may fight another day (because even though we can't really read the crew names on that wall chart, the ship names stay the same!
). Also, when we see these massive fleet battles up close, we witness capital ship or space fortress beam weapons carve sections out of other capital ships - but we see very few stock footage explosions or other "clean ends" to the big ships. Quite often there is a spinning yet largely intact wreck left behind. Yes, this is but an enjoyable artifact of the advances made in visual effects after TOS and TNG. But it is also a general fact of the Star Trek universe, not countermanded by visual evidence from the TOS and TNG days because the writers of those shows steered away from showing such impossible-to-film scenes.So it may well be that the number of starships actually lost (as in, too far gone to be repaired for later action) in the Dominion War, and in Trek combat in general, would be relatively low. Small ship types like BoPs would perish completely, but anything bigger than a Miranda would have a fair chance of limping home, or being towed home at least.
Add to this the fact that we don't really hear of Starfleet managing to build any replacement ships for its war losses, save perhaps for the Sao Paulo / second [/i]Defiant[/i]; and the fact that we never see ships with registries higher than that of the prewar-built Voyager; and the backstage ideas that starship construction may well take half a decade. Quite possibly Starfleet never managed to build any casualty replacements at all, or then only succeeded in fielding the first ones when the war was almost over and the camera was concentrating on the DS9 "side theater" where older ships formed the bulk of the force.
Timo Saloniemi
Timo said:
Oh, and regarding the loss of ships in Trek battles in general...
Even back in TOS or TNG, when the only type of starship loss the producers could afford to show was a stock explosion superimposed on the miniature, we extremely seldom saw total ship losses even when we saw total crew losses. The Constellation and the Excalibur in TOS were still structurally more or less intact. The vessels carved up by the Borg in "BoBW"/"Emissary" had most of their hulls remaining in some form or another, even if holed and/or on fire. It was a major event if a big starship somehow blew up for good, as in "Contagion" (or, supposedly, "Cause and Effect"). For all intents and purposes, I would think it worth the effort for Starfleet to recover and rebuild all the ships whose wreckages we witnessed. And indeed there might be some reason to think that this took place, such as the reappearance of USS Ahwahnee after her Wolf 359 loss...
Moving onto the Dominion War, in "Pale Moonlight", the wall chart listing crew losses aboard various starships never seems to account for all the hundreds of people supposedly aboard such a vessel. It looks as if the usual fate for a starship that loses a battle is a certain amount of damage and crew loss, quite possibly followed by later recovery so that the ship may fight another day (because even though we can't really read the crew names on that wall chart, the ship names stay the same!
So it may well be that the number of starships actually lost (as in, too far gone to be repaired for later action) in the Dominion War, and in Trek combat in general, would be relatively low. Small ship types like BoPs would perish completely, but anything bigger than a Miranda would have a fair chance of limping home, or being towed home at least.
Add to this the fact that we don't really hear of Starfleet managing to build any replacement ships for its war losses, save perhaps for the Sao Paulo / second [/i]Defiant[/i]; and the fact that we never see ships with registries higher than that of the prewar-built Voyager; and the backstage ideas that starship construction may well take half a decade. Quite possibly Starfleet never managed to build any casualty replacements at all, or then only succeeded in fielding the first ones when the war was almost over and the camera was concentrating on the DS9 "side theater" where older ships formed the bulk of the force.
Timo Saloniemi
An interesting fact is that the "bad" ships tend to blow up completely much more often. I guess it is the 24th century version of todays movie car crashes. If you're a good guy you have enough time to recover, get out and to a safe distance before "BOOM"! However if you are evil, your car just explodes at the drop of a hat.
As for registries, we only saw a small percentage of registries compared to the number of ships we actually saw and in most cases it was for older model ships like the Miranda and Excelsior. Who knows how old those Akiras and Steamrunners were. Plus you didn't even see that many ships in total (compared to the number that might have been involved in such a large war).
MeanJoePhaser
Admiral
The Federation didn't lose any ships. The Dominion War was just a holodeck simulation by Riker because he was struggling with his conscience after wrecking the Enterprise in GENERATIONS.
A (probably) complete list of the named ships that fought in the war:
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Starships_in_the_Dominion_War
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Starships_in_the_Dominion_War
So basically, DS9 is the delusion of a Starfleet Captain who thinks he's a writer who writes about him and thinks he's real except for the fact that he's actually a holodeck simulation of a guy who's an exact duplicate of some other guy that he once met but its all really an illusion of the Pah-Wraiths disguised as an illusion of the Prophets?
Anybody else suddenly need a stiff shot of kanar? 
Now see....it is ideas like this that make me positively *terrified* of a DS9-based feature film.
I could EASILY see them going all TATV on us and making the entire seven years of DS9 to in fact be all about Riker.
One thing that always bugged me was the way the battle at Wolf 359 was considered a devastating loss, with 39(?) ships wasted. Several years later, losing a hundred ships sucks, but it's not the end of the world. It doesn't match up, and unless the Feds gathered a large number of allies with large fleets in the interim, or managed to build scores of large-scale replicators capable of making ships in a matter of days, it just doesn't make much sense.
Does anyone have an explanation for that?
Does anyone have an explanation for that?
