Lost 6x15: "Across the Sea"

[davejames]

I'm not sure what your point is here.

The writers said that the show will focus only on the mysteries that affect the main characters. Yet, this episode has no apparent effect. Maybe it will, but I'm getting a vibe of 'producers say one thing, yet do another', which they have a fairly consistent history of doing.

I don't think they were only referring to the main characters, but to characters in general.

This episode was about revealing more of the lives of Jacob and his brother, and how they ultimately arrived at the places they did. One as the "protector" of the island (who is then required to find candidates to replace him), and one as the Smoke Monster which desperately wants to get off it.

Frankly I don't see how it could be any MORE integral or relevant to the story going on now. Plus it was nice to get a better explanation of who these characters were, and how their life-long battle of wills got started.

 

[Jenee]

Guess those of us who said MIB wasn't completely evil weren't as far off base as what you were so convinced we were.

And yet, the creators said that last week's episode was supposed to lay to rest, once and for all, that MIB was evil through and through.

I looked at TWOP's forum a little. Many pissed people.

Personally, it all seems to me that either they (Damon/Lindleloff) changed their minds a number of times during the run of the show what the hell they were doing, or they were winging huge amounts of it.

I think some Lost fans will understand how some Voyager fans felt. That after years of watching and enjoying the show, they got spit on by someone behind the making of the show and told, "Well, the show's over. We don't need your attention (and money from it) anymore, so f**k off. And we'll screw the show just because we can."

Are you guys kidding? And someone up the thread actually has "notes" on the show??

Can't you just watch the episodes and enjoy the story as it unfolds?

Some of you people are obsessed. You don't need to cling to the writer's coattails and hang on their every word.

Yes, it's fun to come in here and compare our perspectives and discuss the episodes, but if you mutilate every scene in an attempt to find where each piece fits, you will never be satisfied with the outcome.

... and I thought I had it bad.

 

[startrekwatcher]

We saw how Elouise can find the Island.

But if Eloise knew of the Lamp Post and was still in contact with Widmore and Widmore had been searching for the island according to Charlotte for 20 years why not just use the Lamp Post to find it.

Widmore was also an Other, who would also know Ricard, who is in contact with Jacob.

How does this explain anything?

 

[startrekwatcher]

Are you guys kidding? And someone up the thread actually has "notes" on the show??

That would be me. Good luck tryingto follow this complicated show without notes. They've been an invaluable source.

Can't you just watch the episodes and enjoy the story as it unfolds?

That might have been the case in the past but LOST ushered in a totally new unique kind of storytelling format--a show where you can't just passively sit back and watch and forget about it. The writers deliberately go out of their way to be extremely subtle, bombard the audience with information at a dizzying speed and have crafted a ridiculously overwhelming Narrative to contend with. I have to watch the episode at least twice to glean everything I do and even then I'm sure I miss stuff--it'd be actually nice if the writers produced a checklist of everything we were meant to catch someday. I'd also point out that unlike your traditional drama with a modest ensemble and two or three paralleling threads that are linear in nature--you can't just watch it and move forward since this show is designed to backtrack and revisit stuff earlier on in the narrative--so you can never just leave it behind--it comes back around. So you can't just watch, enjoy and move on.

Also if you don't then you are truly not getting everything out of this series. You are merely scratching the surface. I mean when you watch a single scene with various players in it you have to replay it because while you are still processing it they are already onto the next thing. And then when you play back the scene you have to remember the histories and dynamics among the players that are in motion within the scene.

Another reason I like to take notes is that it helps reinforce everything and stick better in my memory. And I like the fact that my notes help memorialize my impressions when I watched a scene originally and now 6 years later I can go back and see how things changed etc.

 

[Ryan8bit]

Seriously, you haven't noticed that what Jacob & Smokey are doing does affect the main characters & has been since the first episode? What we saw in this ep. has effected the last 5 seasons we've been watching.

I think you're missing the point. We all know that Jacob and Smokey set things in motion, but this episode doesn't really clarify anything on that matter any more than what we already knew.

The original point was that some mysteries won't be answered if they don't affect the main characters, but that's kind of silly since most of the unsolved mysteries revolve around experiences from the main characters.

I don't think they were only referring to the main characters, but to characters in general.

Maybe we need to see their actual quote. I got the feeling that they were referring to Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Locke, Hurley, Sayid, Kwons, etc. The ones who were there from the beginning. I could be wrong.

Frankly I don't see how it could be any MORE integral or relevant to the story going on now.

Because all it did was elaborate on what we already know while filling in the gaps. I'm totally fine with the origin story and I liked this episode, but I think it just goes against what the producers are saying.

 

[startrekwatcher]

Yes, the Island is: Shangra-La, Eden, Atlantis, Fountain of Youth, etc..... any and all myths we've heard about a mystical place where nobody ever grows old, dies and is full of miracles.

They've given us many answers, just some of them are in metaphor.
It's up to us how we interpret them.

Agreed. I think people are getting way too hung up on the island itself, and what makes IT tick. The writers have said all along that all that really matters is the affect the island has on the characters.

That's fine in theory if the writers approached the series by jettisoning the mythology or playing it down rather than as the integral centerpiece they have. The mythology isn't a means to an end but is something entirely in its own right.

Look at most discussion threads it isn't about the characters but the mysteries, the revelations etc. If they wanted to do what you suggest they should never have framed the series in the way that they did. Heck the last two seasons definitely have been about plot and getting as much exposition and advancing the plot as they can--the character stuff is there to some degree but a lot of it was pure Story. So no they are not off the hook in providing satisfying answers to these mysteries/questions.

The original point was that some mysteries won't be answered if they don't affect the main characters, but that's kind of silly since most of the unsolved mysteries revolve around experiences from the main characters.

I think people are being too rigid with this whole thing of "the island's affect on the main characters". This show has never really in my opinion latched onto any one character. If anything is the Star of the Show it is the Story. Everything is in service of that. The characters come and go, they come back, they serve as mouthpieces for the writers, some have reduced role from the early years as new characters take the spotlight and are important to the story at hand. Everyone has a role to play. Some have been more important and developed others have been mere plot devices. Some have been killed off as a plot point to take a storyline in a certain direction. This show really has taken it to another level in terms of an expansive cast so there is a purpose both from the Island's standpoint and the Writers' in that certain characters are needed to tell the story. Writers bring characters to the island as a means to an end much like the Island itself and when they are done--good-bye.

So at the end of the day Jacob and MIB got an episode focusing on them and the other cast weren't in it--the show has always alternated threads and focused in on certain characters to showcase. I would argue that much like DS9's recurring cast of characters where they were just guest stars but ended up being more interesting and had bigger roles in the Final Chapter of the last few seasons of DS9, that LOST has done something similar all along. There isn't much story left to tell for the survivors yet there is plenty for these two characters that were essentially brought in this season as the Focus--albeit with a light tease in the S5 finale.

 

[davejames]

Because all it did was elaborate on what we already know while filling in the gaps. I'm totally fine with the origin story and I liked this episode, but I think it just goes against what the producers are saying.

Well first of all, the writers have to consider more than just the handful of fans who take notes and have ever little bit of mythology cateloged and memorized. For MOST of us, it's nice to have some of this ground covered again, or have some of the dots connected a little more clearly.

And plus, it seemed in previous episodes (at least to me) that Jacob and his brother were being painted almost as these larger than life, godlike figures. Yes there's still something mythical going on with their struggle, but now we know their histories and motives are much more human and relatable than we thought. I'd call that learning something new.

 

[davejames]

Look at most discussion threads it isn't about the characters but the mysteries, the revelations etc. If they wanted to do what you suggest they should never have framed the series in the way that they did. Heck the last two seasons definitely have been about plot and getting as much exposition and advancing the plot as they can--the character stuff is there to some degree but a lot of it was pure Story. So no they are not off the hook in providing satisfying answers to these mysteries/questions.

I'd agree in the first couple seasons, the focus seemed to be much more on the island and it's mysteries (back when the network mandated that there be a rational, scientific basis for everything), but ever since then I'd say the balance has tipped much futher in the other direction.

Now the mysterious nature of the island is used much more as a backdrop and a way to explore these characters in new and different ways-- which was clearly the MAIN purpose behind the flashforwards and flash-sideways. Hell, even the old flashbacks always had more to do with the characters than anything having to do with the island.

Yeah the island is still the main star of the show, but only as this strange, mysterious presence in the background that the characters' lives revolve around. It's become much less of a literal place to be figured out now.

At least for me.

 

[The Boy Who Cried Worf]

Watched the episode last night. I am sorry, but to me this was an atrocious episode that answered absolutely nothing, raised more questions, and even what it attempted to answer was done in such a cop out way. Jacob and MIB are brothers. Ok, so what? How does that change their story and what we have seen previously. Who is Alison Janney's character? Why is Jacob and MIB immortal? Because she made it that way? Wow that is some creative writing there. A mysterious bright light under the island? That has got to be the most ridiculous cliche's you can possibly put in. Didn't we already see that in Pulp Fiction? We already knew MIB was the smoke monster. We know know how he became it, but we have no idea why. And how does that ending lead to the idea that the MIB hates humanity so much, but Jacob has love for them? How does it tie the island in with evil in the outside world? I am just not remotely convinced that in the remaining 145 minutes of screen time they can possibly get to even half the answers they need to to make this trip worthwhile.

 

[Mr Light]

It's kinda funny how negative the posts are when 72% of us scored it Above Average or Excellent and only 5% gave it a Poor

 

[RoJoHen]

It's kinda funny how negative the posts are when 72% of us scored it Above Average or Excellent and only 5% gave it a Poor

Welcome to the Interwebs.

 

[pookha]

i could easily believe that smokey and the brother we saw in the past are not the same thing as some have speculated.
that when the brother went into the cave of light it unleashed smokey who then took on the brothers form just like he has now assumed locke's form.
or at least the brother transitioned into something very different.

 

[Hober Mallow]

I think some Lost fans will understand how some Voyager fans felt. That after years of watching and enjoying the show, they got spit on by someone behind the making of the show and told, "Well, the show's over. We don't need your attention (and money from it) anymore, so f**k off. And we'll screw the show just because we can."

I don't think you can even compare Lost to Voyager. If Lost were like Voyager, every single season would have been the same thing -- stand-alone episodes that don't matter, with an occasional smattering of an episode where they think they're gonna get off the island, but... gosh darn it, it didn't work, we're still stuck on the island. Until the final episode, and they finally get off the island! Yay! The end.

Sorry, but flaws and all, Lost can't be even close to compared to Voyager. Even if the ending of Lost is an insult to the viewers, Voyager was an insult right from the start.

Not trying to bash the show just to bash it, but you brought up the comparison. To which I say, "Ickeee!"

 

[exodus]

It's kinda funny how negative the posts are when 72% of us scored it Above Average or Excellent and only 5% gave it a Poor

Too quote the Tick: Mysteries Abound!

 

[startrekwatcher]

It's kinda funny how negative the posts are when 72% of us scored it Above Average or Excellent and only 5% gave it a Poor

I've never put much weight on grades--especially grading threads where the options are poor, below avg, abg, above avg, excellent--simply because there is a whole lot of in between.

Honestly, on LOST episodes they feel less like self contained hours and more like a jumble of pieces dropped into an hour of time and don't mean a whole lot in a vacuum. Ultimately what matters is how it all comes together and what the Big Picture looks like when you step back and look at this sprawling narrative landscape. Many times I've had a totally different opinion or appreciation of things once I stepped back and looked at the Larger Picture of where everything was going and a few weeks after a season has ended and I've stopped thinking about it for a while. That is why I've always found grading individual LOST episodes a tad difficult and useless really. Plus with a show like LOST I'm coming up with new things to pull from it days or even weeks later.

 

[Agent Richard07]

I thought they were supposed to be cavemen at first!

I thought one of them looked a lot like Sawyer, and I kept waiting for them to reveal his face, only to completely fuck with my mind even more than normal.

I was waiting for that reveal! He 'grunted' and moved like Sawyer, and there was a flash of a face that looked like Jack.

There was a shot later of a girl carrying a bucket that looked suspiciously like Kate.

If they did pull something like this, it could probably be explained away as another time jump that we have yet to see.

 

[McCoy]

I think the Losties are part of the story of Jacob/MiB, rather than the other way around. This is Jacob and his brother's show. We're only just finding that out now.

 

[Ryan8bit]

Well first of all, the writers have to consider more than just the handful of fans who take notes and have ever little bit of mythology cateloged and memorized. For MOST of us, it's nice to have some of this ground covered again, or have some of the dots connected a little more clearly.

I've never taken notes or anything, so this doesn't really apply. Just based on the episodes this season, there was nothing really new, just things that were partially elaborated on.

And plus, it seemed in previous episodes (at least to me) that Jacob and his brother were being painted almost as these larger than life, godlike figures. Yes there's still something mythical going on with their struggle, but now we know their histories and motives are much more human and relatable than we thought. I'd call that learning something new.

Jacob being stabbed and killed and MiB talking about how he had a crazy mom and his body stolen from him essentially already did that.

It's kinda funny how negative the posts are when 72% of us scored it Above Average or Excellent and only 5% gave it a Poor

Yeah, I really enjoyed the episode and just kept asking my wife questions during the commercials. I also know that there really wouldn't be much discussion if people didn't pick apart the details. I think people are so in the dark about all the mysteries that this late in the game some people might be getting frustrated when they don't answer questions.

Many times I've had a totally different opinion or appreciation of things once I stepped back and looked at the Larger Picture of where everything was going

Agreed. My favorite larger picture moment recently was watching the episode where Locke described seeing the monster as a beautiful, bright light.

 

[propita]

I think some Lost fans will understand how some Voyager fans felt. That after years of watching and enjoying the show, they got spit on by someone behind the making of the show and told, "Well, the show's over. We don't need your attention (and money from it) anymore, so f**k off. And we'll screw the show just because we can."

I don't think you can even compare Lost to Voyager. If Lost were like Voyager, every single season would have been the same thing -- stand-alone episodes that don't matter, with an occasional smattering of an episode where they think they're gonna get off the island, but... gosh darn it, it didn't work, we're still stuck on the island. Until the final episode, and they finally get off the island! Yay! The end.

Sorry, but flaws and all, Lost can't be even close to compared to Voyager. Even if the ending of Lost is an insult to the viewers, Voyager was an insult right from the start.

Not trying to bash the show just to bash it, but you brought up the comparison. To which I say, "Ickeee!"

Compare the shows? NO

Compare the feelings expressed by fans of the two shows? YES. Read some of the posts on TWOP (Television Without Pity--since some may not know the acronym)--they sound similar to ones posted after Voyager ended. Basically, a sense of betrayal. Whether such a feeling is justified, I'm not going to address.

 

[LitmusDragon]

i could easily believe that smokey and the brother we saw in the past are not the same thing as some have speculated.
that when the brother went into the cave of light it unleashed smokey who then took on the brothers form just like he has now assumed locke's form.
or at least the brother transitioned into something very different.

This is my feeling as well. At the very least, I don't think it's clear how we go from the motivations of Jacob's brother at the end of this episode, to what we saw years later "I'd like to kill you". I also think the goodbye scene at the end of the episode is a clue that Jacob's brother really is dead and that the smoke monster is merely impersonating him.