Lost 6x07: "Dr. Linus"

[Mallet]

Forget about the actions themselves, and look at why they are taking these actions.

Okay, let's look at why they are taking these actions.

If there is a "third" party involved on the Island, a "power" greater then Jacob and The MIB (and I'm not 100% convinced that there is, but for now we will assume there is) and it has been shown to us as the Young Boy and his talk of "rules" (I still think that this Young Boy is a young Jacob in "ghost" form, but for now we will say that it is something else).

Is this "higher power" is it good, evil or neutral? Given that this is just a tv show, primarily written for and catering to North American audiences, lets just figure that the "Higher Power" will be good. The Island is a good place. It heals people. So the "Higher Power" is probably a good guy.

Anyways, There is a "Higher Power" on the Island that has laid down some rules for Jacob and The MIB to follow.

What do we know of these rules?

Well we know one rule is that: The MIB can't directly kill Jacob or any of the candidates for replacing Jacob. Someone else can thou (thus the "loophole").

We know that those touched by Jacob are "gifted": They can't kill themselves, "reality," for lack of a better word, won't let them. This happens both on and off the Island. That shows us that this "higher power's" powers work both on and off the Island so it is truly powerful and can effect anything (Guns, bullets, car crashes, dynamite, plane crashes, etc...).

It now appears that Jacob touched the Losties to help protect them from the MIB. He couldn't kill Locke, he can't kill Sawyer or Jack or Kate or Hurley, etc...

We also know the the MIB doesn't like the "Higher Power". He was scared and angry with the Young Boy. He chased him. He yelled at him.

Jacob on the other hand seems to "follow" the Higher Power. He protects people. His followers try and protect the Island. He is shown to be a man at peace, spending years weaving tapestries by candlelight.

The MIB (if he has always been Smokie) hunts the Island, he kills people. Sometimes he judges them first, then kills them.

If the MIB also appears as the "Ghost" People then he also manipulates the Losties into doing things, tricking them into do things they might not normally do because the "ghost" told them to.

Jacob it seems has been watching the Losties for a long, long time. He went to them and touched them (to "gift" them according to Richard). We've only ever seen him directly influence Hurley. And all he did was ask him to get on the plane back to the Island. Everyone else made their own choices to return. None of them had to (Except Sayid who was captured and brought back in handcuffs). Jacob didn't force anyone to do anything. They had free will. (or in the case of Lapidus, fate brought him back. Wrong flight, wrong time).

We only have the MIB's word that Jacob has been manipulating things to get them to the Island. We have never seen any of that. We have seen the MIB as NotLocke tricking Locke into moving the Island again and telling him he would "have to die." He also manipulated Ben into killing Jacob. Heck, if he's always been Christian, then he also got Ben (by way of Locke) to move the Island in the first place.

It has been the MIB who has manipulated people to get them to do what he wants. jacob on the other hand seems to be content to let fate and free will decide who comes to the Island, who stays, who leaves, etc...

So who seems to be good and bad out of those two?

 

[doubleohfive]

I think whats most confusing to me in regards to whether Christian was Smokey, is when we saw him in the cabin way back in season 3 or whenever it was. I thought during that time period that the cabin was still Jacob's place?

The whole time line of when Jacob controlled the cabin versus when Smokey controlled the cabin is confusing to me. I'll probably need a rewatch to sort it out.

Didn't Hurley notice that there was a ring of ash surrounding the cabin when he found it? The ash that we have been led to believe keeps the smoke monster away?

 

[Checkmate]

The problem is that it could have been protecting whoever was inside from Smokey, not imprisoning him. Which makes more sense with the "help me" plea. You also have to consider that we've seen Smokey active prior to that, too.

 

[Jenee]

Forget about the actions themselves, and look at why they are taking these actions.

Okay, let's look at why they are taking these actions.

If there is a "third" party involved on the Island, a "power" greater then Jacob and The MIB (and I'm not 100% convinced that there is, but for now we will assume there is) and it has been shown to us as the Young Boy and his talk of "rules" (I still think that this Young Boy is a young Jacob in "ghost" form, but for now we will say that it is something else).

ok.

Is this "higher power" is it good, evil or neutral? Given that this is just a tv show, primarily written for and catering to North American audiences, lets just figure that the "Higher Power" will be good. The Island is a good place. It heals people. So the "Higher Power" is probably a good guy.

I don't agree, but ... ok.

Anyways, There is a "Higher Power" on the Island that has laid down some rules for Jacob and The MIB to follow.

What do we know of these rules?

Well we know one rule is that: The MIB can't directly kill Jacob or any of the candidates for replacing Jacob. Someone else can thou (thus the "loophole").

We don't know that MIB, nor Jacob, can't kill the other one's candidates.

We know that those touched by Jacob are "gifted": They can't kill themselves, "reality," for lack of a better word, won't let them. This happens both on and off the Island. That shows us that this "higher power's" powers work both on and off the Island so it is truly powerful and can effect anything (Guns, bullets, car crashes, dynamite, plane crashes, etc...).

No. We know that Michael and Richard have been prevented from killing themselves. We don't know why or how.

It now appears that Jacob touched the Losties to help protect them from the MIB. He couldn't kill Locke, he can't kill Sawyer or Jack or Kate or Hurley, etc...

speculation.

We also know the the MIB doesn't like the "Higher Power". He was scared and angry with the Young Boy. He chased him. He yelled at him.

We don't know that MIB doesn't like 'the boy'. We know his presence startled MIB and we know he didn't like that 'the boy' didn't consider the loophole 'legal'.

Jacob on the other hand seems to "follow" the Higher Power.

How do we know this?

He protects people. His followers try and protect the Island. He is shown to be a man at peace, spending years weaving tapestries by candlelight.

Weaving tapestries an being 'at peace' do not a good guy make.

speculation - throw it out.

The MIB (if he has always been Smokie) hunts the Island, he kills people. Sometimes he judges them first, then kills them.

Why does he do this? Maybe this is his "job". And maybe he's tired of it.

If the MIB also appears as the "Ghost" People then he also manipulates the Losties into doing things, tricking them into do things they might not normally do because the "ghost" told them to.

Key word being "if". We don't know every "Ghost" has been MIB.

Jacob it seems has been watching the Losties for a long, long time. He went to them and touched them (to "gift" them according to Richard). We've only ever seen him directly influence Hurley. And all he did was ask him to get on the plane back to the Island. Everyone else made their own choices to return. None of them had to (Except Sayid who was captured and brought back in handcuffs). Jacob didn't force anyone to do anything. They had free will. (or in the case of Lapidus, fate brought him back. Wrong flight, wrong time).

How do we know that touch was a gift? And how do we know that touch wasn't the catalyst to take them off their present course (if we take coolghoulie's(?) theory into consideration) and into the life they are now leading?

We only have the MIB's word that Jacob has been manipulating things to get them to the Island. We have never seen any of that.

There's a lot of shit we haven't seen. The only - ONLY answer we've gotten so far is this. Should we take it at face value? No. But, it is the only straight answer we've gotten so far.

We have seen the MIB as NotLocke tricking Locke into moving the Island again and telling him he would "have to die."

No. We saw Christian do that. And, according to Claire, Christian and notLocke are two different entities.

He also manipulated Ben into killing Jacob.

Yes, he did. Why would he do that? Not "because he's evil". But, really, why?

Heck, if he's always been Christian, then he also got Ben (by way of Locke) to move the Island in the first place.

He's not Christian.

It has been the MIB who has manipulated people to get them to do what he wants. jacob on the other hand seems to be content to let fate and free will decide who comes to the Island, who stays, who leaves, etc...

No. The first scene with MIB and Jacob, MIB asks him to stop bringing the people to the island. Jacob has manipulated everyone who has ever been on the island to come to the island.

So who seems to be good and bad out of those two?

Sounds to me like Jacob isn't 'all good' and MIB isn't 'all bad'.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Yeah, I'm leaning towards believing that the cabin protected who was inside it.

 

[LitmusDragon]

Didn't Hurley notice that there was a ring of ash surrounding the cabin when he found it? The ash that we have been led to believe keeps the smoke monster away?

Yes, but it's not clear (to me, anyway) exactly when that ring of ash was broken, signifying that Smokey had taken over the cabin. This wasn't pointed out until the cabin was burned down late last season. So when we saw Christian with Claire in the cabin, was that Smokey? Way back in season 3, when the voice told Locke "help me", was that Smokey? When Hurley saw Christian in the cabin, was it Smokey? I guess the answer is "yes", but I have lingering doubts. Certainly the cabin was written in such a way as to lead us to believe that Jacob was in there (though, the only person we ever saw there was Christian).

 

[doubleohfive]

I don't recall many of the details ... just that someone (Hurley?) noticed that there was a ring of ash surrounding the cabin. It could very well likely have been to keep the smoke monster trapped inside, or to protect whoever was inside from the smoke monster.

A few episodes ago, I feel like someone was trying to spread the ash around the temple, or at least someone noticed also that there was a ring of ash surrounding the temple... again, presumably, to keep the smoke monster out. They didn't get to it in time, then it rained, Sayid went batshit and let the smoke monster in.

Either way, the ash has always been a deflector of sorts against the smoke monster. but why? And how?

 

[Checkmate]

Yes, we know for certain that ash is supposed to help protect against Smokey (we learned that this season) and there was a ring of ash around the cabin. The problem is that we've seen Smokey active on the island before and after the cabin, so whatever was inside most likely wasn't Smokey.

 

[Hober Mallow]

We already know there's another supernatural force on the island. It's the one Smokey is terrified of, and the one who's apparently set all these rules in place. We know absolutely nothing about him/it/them, though, but it's likely Christian is either them or a servant thereof.

Click below if you want it spoiled as to who that boy was:

Spoiler: boy

According to a leaked casting call sheet, the boy who played the, uh... boy who Flocke was afraid of is slated to return in episode 6.15, "Beyond the Sea," his character name listed as "Young Jacob." So it was probably just Jacob, not a third entity, who warned Flocke against killing Sawyer.

 

[doubleohfive]

^
I don't know if I believe that. The producers have used casting sheets to mislead spoilerphiles before with false information. Might be true, but it also could just be a clever sleight of hand.

 

[Checkmate]

Or completely unrelated to who we originally saw (why would they need to recast?).

 

[Hober Mallow]

f***ed up this post...

 

[Hober Mallow]

Or completely unrelated to who we originally saw (why would they need to recast?).

Spoiler:

Spoiler: boy

I think you misunderstood, or I just wasn't clear. It's the same actor playing young Jacob, if the casting sheet is accurate and not a red herring. They aren't recasting.

 

[doubleohfive]

The point is, the producers aren't above doing a red herring. They've done it before. They could be doing it again.

 

[Hober Mallow]

The point is, the producers aren't above doing a red herring. They've done it before. They could be doing it again.

Sure they could be, but I don't think they are.

 

[Checkmate]

Spoiler: The Kid

It just doesn't make any sense for it to have been a young Jacob. Sure, time travel explains how and why he could have been there, but it also means that killing Jacob was pointless since a version of Jacob is still running around.

Why wouldn't he have done some other things during his appearance, too? And why would his future incarnation have been disappointed/surprised by Ben killing him if he already knew he was going to die? etc.

 

[Hober Mallow]

Spoiler: The Kid

It just doesn't make any sense for it to have been a young Jacob. Sure, time travel explains how and why he could have been there, but it also means that killing Jacob was pointless since a version of Jacob is still running around.

Why wouldn't he have done some other things during his appearance, too? And why would his future incarnation have been disappointed/surprised by Ben killing him if he already knew he was going to die? etc.

Spoiler: boy

He could simply have appeared to Flocke as he appeared to Hurley, only in the form of the boy. And, if you want one more spoiler, in the episode "Across the Sea" (just checked, I got the title wrong above) young Jacob and young MIB are supposed to appear together in the episode. So they have a history, and it makes more sense for him to appear to Flocke as the boy he grew up with, and would explain why he was so alarmed when he saw him.

Then again, the casting sheet could very well be a red herring. Nothing is known for sure, but I'm betting it was Jacob and not yet another entity we've never met before.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

GAH! This forum is a minefield of spoiler buttons!

I just popped back in to say, the stuff with Napoleon on Elba is a big fat honkin' clue that Smokey is a deposed alien overlord who has been imprisoned on Earth to keep him far away from his home planet and for whatever reason, the aliens have decided that the jailer must be a trusted hew-mon native of planet Earth, and the process for choosing the jailer is elaborate and mysterious due to the importance of the role and the fact that we are dealing with alien minds, customs and goals, and when Smokey talks about "going home," he doesn't mean anyplace on Planet Earth.

Okay, now I'm leaving you to your spoiler buttons!!!! Not comin' back till Tues.

 

[Checkmate]

I'm pretty sure it was closer to foreshadowing the events at the end of the episode where Smokey offers Ben the opportunity to rule the island once he takes everyone off it. He'd effectively be the Emperor, but would have no one to rule over. Which, fully realizing that, is why he didn't hesitate much when Ilana offered him the chance to come with her.

Hell, he even told us as much with his confession about being power-hungry, though not in so many words.

 

[gh4chiefs]

GAH! This forum is a minefield of spoiler buttons!

Well they're not really that much of a spoiler. But then again some people freak out over the littlest things so I guess it's wise to use them.