Kirk's fate before Generations

[tim0122]

So, before the Generations movie, I only recall seeing vague references to Kirk in TNG. But no definitive statement about whether he was alive or dead or, if he was alive, what he was up to.

My question: Before Generations was their an official or fan statement/idea/theories about Kirk's status? Also, were there any Trek novels or comics that said he or showed he was alive in a story that took place after the Enterprise B incident and thus was contradicted once that movie came out?

 

[CommanderTrip]

So, before the Generations movie, I only recall seeing vague references to Kirk in TNG. But no definitive statement about whether he was alive or dead or, if he was alive, what he was up to.

My question: Before Generations was their an official or fan statement/idea/theories about Kirk's status? Also, were there any Trek novels or comics that said he or showed he was alive in a story that took place after the Enterprise B incident and thus was contradicted once that movie came out?

I think this is a bit of a Schrodinger's cat situation - JTK was neither alive nor dead in TNG until Generations came about. TPTB left his status ambiguous throughout the show's run, which makes sense because they were still making movies with TOS crew through the 90s.. We saw an older McCoy was alive in TNG premiere, and Spock was still around in Season 5. But JTK, Uhura, Sulu, and Chekov are question marks. I think the closest we had to confirmation of JTK status in TNG was the response from Scotty upon hearing that Riker and Co were from the Enterprise

"The Enterprise?! I shoulda known – I'll bet Jim Kirk himself hauled the old gal outta mothballs to come lookin' for me!"

While there is nothing in his response to indicate JTK is alive or dead, we can certainly infer that Scotty in "Relics" is older than the Scotty we see in "Generations" as he is officially on his way to settle down for retirement. Being in the transporter on the Jenolan for ~ 78 years, if this happened prior to Generations, he would have been missing from those events. Some have come to explain it away as Scotty had a little memory loss from being in the transporter for decades.

It's a plot hole at worst, and have to chuck it up to the fact that Relics came before Generations, and ultimately JTK's fate was retroactively what it was come Generations in 1994.

 

[Aragorn]

I think the Shatner novels tried to explain the Scotty line as being wishful thinking even though he knew better. That many years in a transporter beam would have to make you wonky though.

 

[The Wormhole]

I think the matter of Scotty thinking Kirk was alive in Relics was handled nicely on Family Guy.

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[Riley]

The only reference was, as mentioned, Scotty's comment in Relics. However, I hated Kirk's fate in GEN thirty years ago and have only come to hate it even more since. For this reason, I can't get as excited as many fans about the recent OTOY/Roddenberry short. It's based on a premise I despise and also includes references to alternate universes (Abrams and Kurtz Trek) that are inferior to the original Trek. TUC should have remained the last we saw of the original crew, especially Kirk. I prefer the idea that, after TUC, Kirk set out to explore on his own and went missing. His fate should have remained unknown until or unless a story worthy of his return or explaining his fate came along. GEN was far from such a story.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

The only reference was, as mentioned, Scotty's comment in Relics. However, I hated Kirk's fate in GEN thirty years ago and have only come to hate it even more since. For this reason, I can't get as excited as many fans about the recent OTOY/Roddenberry short. It's based on a premise I despise and also includes references to alternate universes (Abrams and Kurtz Trek) that are inferior to the original Trek. TUC should have remained the last we saw of the original crew, especially Kirk. I prefer the idea that, after TUC, Kirk set out to explore on his own and went missing. His fate should have remained unknown until or unless a story worthy of his return or explaining his fate came along. GEN was far from such a story.

Agreed.

In my mind, as soon as Spock got word of Kirk's "death" on the Enterprise-B, he went out to where the incident happened and devised a way to rescue Kirk from the Nexus, no doubt by observing something that everyone else had overlooked. The guy that Picard met in the Nexus was just Kirk's echo.

Anything else is simply out of character for Spock, IMO.

 

[Ronald Held]

Kirk's Nexus echo could not be removed from the Nexus, AFAIR

 

[Mojochi]

I think this is a bit of a Schrodinger's cat situation - JTK was neither alive nor dead in TNG until Generations came about. TPTB left his status ambiguous throughout the show's run, which makes sense because they were still making movies with TOS crew through the 90s.. We saw an older McCoy was alive in TNG premiere, and Spock was still around in Season 5. But JTK, Uhura, Sulu, and Chekov are question marks. I think the closest we had to confirmation of JTK status in TNG was the response from Scotty upon hearing that Riker and Co were from the Enterprise

"The Enterprise?! I shoulda known – I'll bet Jim Kirk himself hauled the old gal outta mothballs to come lookin' for me!"

While there is nothing in his response to indicate JTK is alive or dead, we can certainly infer that Scotty in "Relics" is older than the Scotty we see in "Generations" as he is officially on his way to settle down for retirement. Being in the transporter on the Jenolan for ~ 78 years, if this happened prior to Generations, he would have been missing from those events. Some have come to explain it away as Scotty had a little memory loss from being in the transporter for decades.

It's a plot hole at worst, and have to chuck it up to the fact that Relics came before Generations, and ultimately JTK's fate was retroactively what it was come Generations in 1994.

I never liked the "Old Scotty hasn't got his faculties right & forgot Kirk had died" hand wave

There's also the potentiality that after Kirk was lost from the B, based off of interviews of the El-Aurian survivors & a lack of any of Kirk's remains being found, everyone had correctly deduced that Kirk was not dead per say, but had in fact been trapped in the Nexus like the El-Aurians had been.

Being that the only way to get him out was to risk an entire ship & crew, his rescue would've been too dangerous to attempt. So he was never going to be rescued until Soren invented his star destroying plot. As such, he might've even been classified as lost or dead.

However, based off the survivor's knowledge of the Nexus, it's possible they knew Kirk might be able to leave the Nexus at will (like Picard does) So, when Scotty reemerges from the Jenolan transporter, not realizing how much time had passed, & he heard "The Enterprise" (which was already mothballed prior to the B launching) he optimistically jumped to the conclusion that of course Kirk couldn't be held for long in the Nexus. He'd either escaped or had been rescued, & was now coming to save them with the "Old Girl". He is Kirk after all, & had been known to have managed bigger miracles.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Kirk's Nexus echo could not be removed from the Nexus, AFAIR

Just add it to the long list of things that don't make sense about the Nexus.

Does it let you relive highlights of your life (Kirk) or take you to moments of pure fantasy (Picard)? Does it transport you in time or stand outside of time? Do you need a ship to approach it or do you automatically enter it when its path crosses a planet's orbit? Can you leave the Nexus of your own volition or not? Is the Nexus responsible for Guinan's time sense, and if so, why doesn't Soran have it? He was in the Nexus for just as long as Guinan was. Does everyone leave an echo in there, or was that just Guinan? And if it wasn't just Guinan, did Soran leave an echo there as well?

The movie doesn't answer any of these questions, so the only thing I can assume is that the Nexus can do whatever is most convenient for the current scene.

Being that the only way to get him out was to risk an entire ship & crew, his rescue would've been too dangerous to attempt.

And such rescues have absolutely no precedent in Star Trek, and especially not with Kirk and his crew. ("The Menagerie," "The Tholian Web," "The Paradise Syndrome,' Star Trek III...)

Like I said, it would be out of character for Spock to not at least attempt a rescue, and IMO, out of character for Spock not to solve the problem.

 

[Dukhat]

Does it let you relive highlights of your life (Kirk) or take you to moments of pure fantasy (Picard)? Does it transport you in time or stand outside of time? Do you need a ship to approach it or do you automatically enter it when its path crosses a planet's orbit? Can you leave the Nexus of your own volition or not? Is the Nexus responsible for Guinan's time sense, and if so, why doesn't Soran have it? He was in the Nexus for just as long as Guinan was. Does everyone leave an echo in there, or was that just Guinan? And if it wasn't just Guinan, did Soran leave an echo there as well?

There's only one way that any of this would make sense: That Kirk actually did die on the Enterprise-B like everyone thought he did, and that everything Picard experienced in the Nexus, including his visit with echo-Guinan and then Kirk, was all just part of the Nexus-induced fantasy, and that Picard is still in there.

Let's review this a little. On the Enterprise, Guinan tells Picard that the Nexus is so addictive that he'll never want to leave. The movie then later shows the complete opposite of this: That Picard and Kirk are able to leave it just fine after realizing that their respective fantasies are just that, fantasies. But what if the Nexus was just compensating for the fact that Picard's family fantasy wasn't working? What if it created the false Guinan in an attempt to fool him into thinking he could leave? And then the false Guinan leads Picard to believe that Kirk was also trapped in the Nexus (because Kirk was on Picard's mind when Riker mentioned the Enterprise-B to him earlier in the story), and creates a new fantasy where Picard meets Kirk, convinces him to leave the Nexus with him to go back to the real world to stop Soran (which doesn't actually happen), and completely glosses over the fact that Picard picks the absolute worst point in time to go back to? He then defeats Soran, saves the planet and his crew, and witnesses Kirk's death because the Nexus fantasy no longer needs him. Then in the next three films Picard becomes an action hero (like Kirk) despite this being totally out of character for him, fighting Borg, going back in time to meet Zefram Cochrane, kicking Son'a ass, and finding out he had an 18 year old evil clone all this time, and kicking his ass too. Not to mention his hijinks in Star Trek: Picard and ultimately finding out he has a son through the weirdest set of circumstances ever.

...Despite the fact that it's all just a Nexus-induced fantasy.

Unfortunately, of course, this would also mean that Soran was successful in destroying Veridian III, along with killing the entire Enterprise-D crew. And anything we see on screen after that, which includes over half of DS9 and all of VOY (especially Worf on DS9, Troi and Barclay on Voyager, etc.,) is also just part of Picard's Nexus fantasy, since all of the Ent-D crew are dead.

Mind blown?

 

[Uxi]

There's only one way that any of this would make sense: That Kirk actually did die on the Enterprise-B like everyone thought he did, and that everything Picard experienced in the Nexus, including his visit with echo-Guinan and then Kirk, was all just part of the Nexus-induced fantasy, and that Picard is still in there.

Let's review this a little. On the Enterprise, Guinan tells Picard that the Nexus is so addictive that he'll never want to leave. The movie then later shows the complete opposite of this: That Picard and Kirk are able to leave it just fine after realizing that their respective fantasies are just that, fantasies. But what if the Nexus was just compensating for the fact that Picard's family fantasy wasn't working? What if it created the false Guinan in an attempt to fool him into thinking he could leave? And then the false Guinan leads Picard to believe that Kirk was also trapped in the Nexus (because Kirk was on Picard's mind when Riker mentioned the Enterprise-B to him earlier in the story), and creates a new fantasy where Picard meets Kirk, convinces him to leave the Nexus with him to go back to the real world to stop Soran (which doesn't actually happen), and completely glosses over the fact that Picard picks the absolute worst point in time to go back to? He then defeats Soran, saves the planet and his crew, and witnesses Kirk's death because the Nexus fantasy no longer needs him. Then in the next three films Picard becomes an action hero (like Kirk) despite this being totally out of character for him, fighting Borg, going back in time to meet Zefram Cochrane, kicking Son'a ass, and finding out he had an 18 year old evil clone all this time, and kicking his ass too. Not to mention his hijinks in Star Trek: Picard.

Despite the fact that it's all just a Nexus-induced fantasy.

Unfortunately, of course, this would also mean that Soran was successful in destroying Veridian III, along with killing the entire Enterprise-D crew. And anything we see on screen after that, which includes over half of DS9 and all of VOY (especially Worf on DS9, Troi and Barclay on Voyager, etc.,) is also just part of Picard's Nexus fantasy, since all of the Ent-D crew are dead.

Mind blown?

That would put a whole new spin on Picard. Q could just be checking in on Picard in the Nexus and/or spinning him into another reality.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Mind blown?

Not really, since this is very similar to a theory that John Byrne put forward on his Forum years ago. Except for the "Kirk really died on the Enterprise-B" thing, since Byrne is a TOS fan first and foremost. (I'd link to it, but most of the subsections on Byrne Robotics are members only now.)

So why was Picard fantasizing about Riker & Troi having a kid that died, then?

 

[David cgc]

Not really, since this is very similar to a theory that John Byrne put forward on his Forum years ago. Except for the "Kirk really died on the Enterprise-B" thing, since Byrne is a TOS fan first and foremost. (I'd link to it, but most of the subsections on Byrne Robotics are members only now.)

So why was Picard fantasizing about Riker & Troi having a kid that died, then?

Why was Picard fantasizing about a psychic child destroying subspace eight hundred years after he died, or Spock meeting younger, sexier versions of all his friends in an alternate timeline? Because it's the original introductory crack-theory and it falls apart the minute you think about it, just like every "And it was all a dream" retcon.

Dream sequences are for surreal character-building revelations, not post-hoc reset buttons, and crack-theories should be totally off the wall, but also enragingly difficult to disprove. Like, I don't know, Captain Kirk is a Tibetan Buddhist. Obi-Wan chartering the Millennium Falcon at the beginning of Star Wars was actually an elaborate charade carried on under Han and Luke's noses by three Clone War vets who already knew each other and had been ready to team up for years. Anything Timo ever posted.

 

[Dukhat]

Not really, since this is very similar to a theory that John Byrne put forward on his Forum years ago. Except for the "Kirk really died on the Enterprise-B" thing, since Byrne is a TOS fan first and foremost. (I'd link to it, but most of the subsections on Byrne Robotics are members only now.)

So why was Picard fantasizing about Riker & Troi having a kid that died, then?

I don’t know who this John Byrne person is. I was just speculating how the Nexus would make sense in the way it was described by Guinan and how her description didn’t bear this out.

Why was Picard fantasizing about a psychic child destroying subspace eight hundred years after he died, or Spock meeting younger, sexier versions of all his friends in an alternate timeline? Because it's the original introductory crack-theory and it falls apart the minute you think about it, just like every "And it was all a dream" retcon.

Dream sequences are for surreal character-building revelations, not post-hoc reset buttons, and crack-theories should be totally off the wall, but also enragingly difficult to disprove. Like, I don't know, Captain Kirk is a Tibetan Buddhist. Obi-Wan chartering the Millennium Falcon at the beginning of Star Wars was actually an elaborate charade carried on under Han and Luke's noses by three Clone War vets who already knew each other and had been ready to team up for years. Anything Timo ever posted.

Yes, it’s a crack-theory and doesn’t make sense in the larger scheme of things. Notice that I didn’t propose that that’s what actually happened. Just that it makes more sense than what was actually shown.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Anything Timo ever posted.

 

[Dukhat]

Well, I wouldn’t want to be compared to him.

 

[Phoenix219]

Kirk's Nexus echo could not be removed from the Nexus, AFAIR

Enter, Picard has been stuck in the Nexus ever since, fan theory.

Kirk is out, and doing mystery Kirk things this whole time, and every Trek since then has been in Picard's fantasy, even Sarek having a daughter? OK, i'm down.

 

[F. King Daniel]

There was never anything official saying Kirk was alive, they would have deliberately avoided anything like that until canon established something (especially in the 90's era of Treklit, where Spock almost wasn't allowed pyjamas in a novel because he hadn't been seen wearing pyjamas in the show)

I definitely read a couple of old scanned fanzine fanfics where Kirk is an old man long after TOS, although details have faded with time. One where Kirk is old and senile, one where he and Spock visit the Enterprise-D in TNG season 1.

 

[Uxi]

So why was Picard fantasizing about Riker & Troi having a kid that died, then?

Random weird dream stuff.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

they would have deliberately avoided anything like that until canon established something (especially in the 90's era of Treklit, where Spock almost wasn't allowed pyjamas in a novel because he hadn't been seen wearing pyjamas in the show)

Ah, the Richard Arnold era. So many idiotic edicts, so little time.