*chuckles in Spock/McCoy and TOS Vulcan.*
Spoilers Kelvin Timeline Character appearances in SNW?
- Thread starter mattman8907
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That wasn't casual racism, they both stayed up late every night trying to come up with new one-liners to bait each other. That was semi-professional racism.
It wasn't much better just because it's cloaked in professionalism.
It never was.
Memory-Alpha says he's an ensign, not sure where that's from. None of the images I can find of him online has rank stripes on his uniform. Maybe it's mentioned in dialogue?
If he's a non-com, while it's not excusable, it at least doesn't impact on his own ability to lead as an officer. Ensign or Lt, he's still expected to command the crew. It's really bad people management either way, one of the key skills of a department head. No wonder Kirk figured an Ensign with 6 months' experience and a month of job shadowing could do the job.
Kelvin Scotty being "too slapstick" had nothing to do with casting and everything to do with writing, and that problem would still be there even if Paul McGillion were cast in the role. Trek XI is filled with all kinds of slapstick moments, like Kirk's swollen hands and tongue moment.
Besides, to prove it has nothing to do with casting, Simon Pegg was the one who was requesting Scotty be given more serious material. He had to wait until the movie he wrote himself to make that happen.
When TOS Scotty was given character dialogue, more often than not it was comedic. There are two notable exceptions, "Wolf in the Fold" and "The Lights of Zetar."
But come on - Tribbles, "By Any Other Name," even "Spectre of The Gun" - the guy's comic relief.
"Or you'rrrrre likely to find yourrrrself wearin' concrete galoshes!"
But come on - Tribbles, "By Any Other Name," even "Spectre of The Gun" - the guy's comic relief.
"Or you'rrrrre likely to find yourrrrself wearin' concrete galoshes!"
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I never took it as a racist thing. I felt a strong camaraderie between the two. They were just super close and "busted balls" to speak. It's a common enough thing. Maybe not quite as common with younger people today, but it reminds of the movie "Gran Torino", when Clint Eastwood is trying to explain how certain people talk to each other, then himself and another guy (both white, one Italian, one Polish I believe) are trading "racist" insults to each other in a lighthearted way.
Scotty isn't even doing THAT, he just kinda jokingly yells at Keenser, who in turn tends to just kind of either ignore him or continue to do what he was doing in spite. It's a playful thing, not a hateful thing.
It's the clear the two share a very close bond. In Into Darkness, Keenser resigns right along with Scotty, and the two continue to stay together outside of Starfleet.
I would be fine with all the ones you've named, particularly Marcus, Robau, and Keenser. I think it would be neat to see a side character like Captain Abbott (from Into Darkness) as well. I think it would be neat to include Starbase Yorktown, mention the Freedom-class starships, have some Into Darkness designed Klingons, and use (as well as name and sometimes flesh out) some of the Kelvin alien designs.
I would like to see someone who should be contemporary to 2260, played by the same actor, but be the Prime Universe version. Star Trek Online did this with the TOS missions, there's an Admiral you meet in a mission that forays into the Kelvin Timeline, and he's the TOS Admiral in those missions. Marcus would be the best choice I think, would be kind of cool to see a Prime version of Marcus. If they could get Peter Weller back, i'd love to see what Prime Marcus was up to. Maybe still tangled up with Section 31?
I would be cool seeing more Kelvin Klingons. Aside from being bald (and it was ONE of them... the other guys had hair... he was supposed to but the wig kept getting pulled off with the mask), I don't think they're redesign is bad at all and can easily see them in-line with the TNG+ Klingons.
I'd rather not see Yorktown, or at least, not as it was. I would be ok with a Prime universe version of Yorktown. I think that straight Kelvin Yorktown is very much a product of its altered timeline.
USS Kelvin could well still be in service. That would be cool to see.
Yeah Doohan could dial it up and down but I don't think, if I weigh up the sum of Scotty’s appearances in TOS, my first thought is that he's the comic relief, especially not compared to McCoy and Chekov.
I think it's true that it's possible to dismiss 'bad' behaviour as banter, and it often is taken in that spirit, but Spock's joke to Rand is not well received by many, especially many women, and people with dwarfism, with an opportunity to see an engineer onscreen might have liked to see Keenser treated a bit better overall.
I scanned the thread and didn't see it, not immediately familiar with the Spock reference.
I can understand the perspective of why some may have wanted to see Keenser treated "better", but i'll still maintain that there's really nothing abusive going on at all. I see a wonderful, beautiful friendship between two people that are comfortable enough to engage in that sort of banter. In all fairness, we also don't see what kind of retorts Keenser can throw back at Scotty. It's mostly just "Scotty tells Keenser to do something, Keenser non-verbally says no."
It's really the same thing with Spock and McCoy. On the surface and out of context, it seems pretty damn racist. In context... it's playful banter between two good friends. McCoy likes to underhanded compliment Spock, masked in an insult. Spock likes to sneak in dry zinger.
It only ever becomes a problem to me if it's mean spirited, or just actively makes someone uncomfortable. Like if Spock told McCoy "I don't appreciate how you speak to me" and McCoy kept going... that's bad. Spock firing back a quip of his own? That's just two dudes having fun.
Someone on the outside might misinterpret that, like the Scotty/Keenser relationship. I can understand how someone who relates to Keenser may look at that from the outside and not appreciate it, but it's more important Keenser thinks about it. As far as we know, he's cool with it.
Keenser struck me as the same type of way as McCoy/Spock, Chekov/Scotty (about Russia), and Sisko/Dax. There was a history there, one we don't have the full insight in to, and it's meant playfully, not insulting, not "poor management relations" and not dismissing bad behavior.
To quote Troi, "sometimes a cake is just a cake."
To quote Troi, "sometimes a cake is just a cake."
The things that stand out seem to be his comic lines, though Even when spouting the "tech the tech" he has time to crack a little wise.
Watch TOS 'All our yesterdays'
I think I have sussed what rankles me about NuTrek compared to TOS: It's the arrogance of exceptionalism. TOS Kirk is exceptional but he isn't arrogant. He's actually very self-reflective, especially early on and they show us this. Spock is a bit more balanced between the two versions but compare Spock's reaction to T'Pring's rejection to NuSpock's reaction to the Vulcan Science Academy patronising him. In the latter, there is a strong undercurrent of throwing shade their way by saying I'm better than you. The discussion about the merits of the Kobayashi Maru is portrayed as a clash of exceptional egos.
Scotty in TOS is great but NuScotty is exceptional and he behaves like he's entitled. Killing Archer's dog is an indication of this. That's probably what colours my view of his interactions with Keenser. Humility is a more attractive personality trait to me so when arrogance is portrayed as a positive trait, it makes me dislike the character on a subconscious level. I had quite a hard time liking any of the characters in Top Gun Maverick.
I think arrogant exceptionalism works better when shown as light and shade such as with Richard Daystrom, good/evil Kirk, or Stamets, where it's bravado to mask feelings of inadequacy or pressure.
Obviously, the characters do evolve and they are more comfortable and more tolerable by the third movie and even parodying some of the ludicrous testosterone levels in the previous two. There was a sense of, everyone knows we're great now so we no longer have to rub your noses in it, plus Kirk's early mid life crisis makes him more relatable.
Cupcake in TOS was just some poor guy who followed orders and became a statistic. Cupcake in NuTrek was a rival ego.
Still, Keenser is one of the more fun alien cameos, a bit like Linus in Discovery. I'd actually prefer to see Ilia more than Gaila, although Lower Decks has finally fleshed out the Orions a fair bit now, and Ilia is too young for this time period and unknown to the other crew members when they meet her in TMP.
Scotty in TOS is great but NuScotty is exceptional and he behaves like he's entitled. Killing Archer's dog is an indication of this. That's probably what colours my view of his interactions with Keenser. Humility is a more attractive personality trait to me so when arrogance is portrayed as a positive trait, it makes me dislike the character on a subconscious level. I had quite a hard time liking any of the characters in Top Gun Maverick.
I think arrogant exceptionalism works better when shown as light and shade such as with Richard Daystrom, good/evil Kirk, or Stamets, where it's bravado to mask feelings of inadequacy or pressure.
Obviously, the characters do evolve and they are more comfortable and more tolerable by the third movie and even parodying some of the ludicrous testosterone levels in the previous two. There was a sense of, everyone knows we're great now so we no longer have to rub your noses in it, plus Kirk's early mid life crisis makes him more relatable.
Cupcake in TOS was just some poor guy who followed orders and became a statistic. Cupcake in NuTrek was a rival ego.
Still, Keenser is one of the more fun alien cameos, a bit like Linus in Discovery. I'd actually prefer to see Ilia more than Gaila, although Lower Decks has finally fleshed out the Orions a fair bit now, and Ilia is too young for this time period and unknown to the other crew members when they meet her in TMP.
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Beautifully put and why I love those films.
Yes, Nimoy was quite impressed by that and brought it up in an interview.
Lol yeah, there was definitely a deliberate intent to take Star Trek and inject everyone with testosterone. Top Gun Maverick was massively popular. I really enjoyed it but, if those are the kinds of cardboard arrogant, entitled characters that moviegoers love to see win the day, what does that say about us as a people? My biggest take from the movie was that they didn't wear motorcycle helmets on the bike and didn't wear life jackets on the boat.
If we yearn for the black and white of absolute right vs absolute wrong how can we cope with the reality of compromise in the real world? Are we seeing that play out gradually in the USA as both sides coalesce into intractable polarised factions with a minoritywilling to cross the line to win at all costs?
I wonder what would be the outcome of an episode of Savage Curtain with the top 4 political leaders on both sides? In a scenario where it isn't all about money, would their humanity shine through or would the each view the other as absolute right and absolute wrong?
Back on topic. Seeing a younger Scott with Keenser pre-Enterprise could give us a better dynamic. That might be fun.
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Well, no.
It was the process of watching these people mature, become leaders in their own right, not perfect, but flawed, and needing the fire of real world experience and defeat to forge them.
Nothing "lol" about it. Thesd films show the process rather than just the end product. I loved them because of flaws and struggles not the arrogance.
It's not black and white but a corful journey of people I know have great potential but cannot just step in to those roles without testing.