Is the Luna-class an improvement?

[Satyrquaze]

I know Sean Tourangeau,who designed the USS Titan frequents this site from time to time, but something kinda bothers me about his design. This is simply my observation based on the images I’ve seen of the Luna-class, not at all based on its mission profile as I’ve not read any of the Titan books and have no plans to do so.

It seems to me that the Luna-class borrows a lot from the Akira-class. On the surface it would appear to have an almost identical performance markers as the Akira. Probably nearly identical top speeds/maneuverability, similar firing arcs, etc…

I expected that since it was of a similar size as the Akira that it would have superior firepower since it was first launched ten years after the Akira in the era most known for Borg, Klingon, Dominion, and Romulan aggression. Yet, the Luna-class has one fewer phaser array and depending on which view of the Akira you agree with, the Luna is short by about twelve torpedo tubes. I mean, in my view if you're going to bother to design a ship that looks a lot like a pre-existing ship, I would expect the newer ship to build upon the previous design and improve upon it. I don't see that happening here.

Don’t get me wrong, I personally think the Luna-class is beautiful and is possibly one of my favorite ships visually and stylistically.

I guess my point is that I don’t see any area where the Luna-class is an improvement over the Akira-class, except visually. But, that might just be me.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I tend to think of the Luna-class as the "little sister" to the Sovereign-class myself.

 

[kv1at3485]

Ten thousand phaser strips and a blind spot a star could sail through, or a handful of strips and 360-degree coverage on all three axis... Hmm...

Ten thousand stubby launchers with a low rate of fire, or a handful of launchers with a much higher rate of fire... Hmm... (Besides, Akira's 'unique' launcher arrangement seems not to be held in much favour.)

Not that I've read the books or anything. I'm more curious about how much volume the ship has.

 

[Satyrquaze]

I play the Akira-class quite often in Star Trek: Legacy and I've had little problem with any blind spot or the rate of fire.

 

[F. King Daniel]

The Akira class is supposed to be some kind of battleship. The Luna class is an exploration vessel - the pod on top isn't weapons but the most advanced sensor suite in the Federation. The Akira is meant for a crew of humans or humanoid aliens, whereas the Titan has a far more diverse crew (including non-humanoids, both low and high gravity species, and aquatics), and therefore a more complex life-support arrangement.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

The Akira is meant for a crew of humans or humanoid aliens, whereas the Titan has a far more diverse crew (including non-humanoids, both low and high gravity species, and aquatics), and therefore a more complex life-support arrangement.

I always think that almost every Starfleet ship is capable of carrying any kind of life-form (smaller ships like the Defiant- or Sabre-Class would be the exception). The whole thing with the Titan being the "most diverse crew in the fleet" really annoys the hell out of me, but that is a discussion for another thread.

I doubt Starfleet would discriminate against non-humanoids by not having facilities for them. But like I said, that's just my thought.

As for the Luna-Class, I'd agree with C.E. Evans in that it is the Sovereign's "little sister", much like the Miranda was to the Constitution.

-Bry

 

[Timo]

It would probably be trivially easy to configure Kirk's old ship to carry a purely Tholian or dolphin crew - but hellishly difficult to have her crewed 50% by Tholians and 50% by dolphins. The interaction of different environments is the thing that would call for very special interiors indeed...

Agreed that the Luna probably doesn't strive to be much of a battlewagon. Why should it, when there are plenty of Akiras around? Perhaps a new battlewagon design will eventually be introduced so that the "Sovereign family" will have its own, just like Akira appears to be the battlewagon for the "Galaxy family". But that day may still be in the future of the Titan books. Or at least was until the latest galaxy-scorching plot twists were added to the TNG era novel line...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Christopher]

I expected that since it was of a similar size as the Akira that it would have superior firepower since it was first launched ten years after the Akira in the era most known for Borg, Klingon, Dominion, and Romulan aggression.

As KingDaniel correctly says, the Luna class is designed for exploration, not combat. Let's remember that exploration and diplomacy are Starfleet's primary function. The purpose of the Luna fleet's mission is to fulfill that function -- to venture forth, meet new species, and present the most positive face of the Federation to them. The Luna project was initiated when the Bajoran Wormhole was discovered, with the goal of exploring the Gamma Quadrant, but was put on hold in favor of more combat-oriented classes (such as the Akira) when the Dominion threat manifested. Clearly it's not meant to be a battleship.

I mean, in my view if you're going to bother to design a ship that looks a lot like a pre-existing ship, I would expect the newer ship to build upon the previous design and improve upon it. I don't see that happening here.

Who says that the only way to "improve" a ship is to add weapons? The Luna class has many improvements that serve its primary functions: state-of-the-art propulsion, the most advanced sensors in Starfleet history, an improved holographic stellar-cartography lab, cutting-edge science labs and experimental technologies, highly adaptable life-support and equipment configurations to accommodate its diverse crew, etc.

I always think that almost every Starfleet ship is capable of carrying any kind of life-form (smaller ships like the Defiant- or Sabre-Class would be the exception).

Except that the sets and equipment are pretty clearly built with human actors in mind. What about aquatic intelligences? What about species too big to fit in a conventional turbolift?

The whole thing with the Titan being the "most diverse crew in the fleet" really annoys the hell out of me, but that is a discussion for another thread.

Sure, we all agree in theory that Starfleet should be universally inclusive, but the reality on the screen is that the ships we've seen were overwhelmingly dominated by humanoids, and particularly by humans, since the shows rarely had the makeup budget to turn random extras into exotic alien types. The novels are required to stay consistent with what was established onscreen. And that means we had to acknowledge the unfortunate fact that most of the Starfleet vessels we've seen onscreen were human-dominated. Therefore, a series that uses the freedom of the prose format to portray a more diverse crew is obligated to acknowledge that it's unusual.

I doubt Starfleet would discriminate against non-humanoids by not having facilities for them.

What's actually been asserted in the Titan novels is not that Starfleet doesn't have facilities for non-humanoids, but that they tend to have their own separate ships that are specialized for their needs just as the ships we've seen are specialized for humanoids. For instance, there might be an all-aquatic ship crewed by Pacificans, Alonis, maybe Xindi Aquatics or Aquans, etc., much like the 23rd-century Intrepid was an all-Vulcan ship. We've just never seen a story that was set aboard one of those ships. What's novel about the Luna class is not that it has nonhumanoids at all, but that they're fully intermixed with humanoids on the same crew.

 

[Satyrquaze]

I expected that since it was of a similar size as the Akira that it would have superior firepower since it was first launched ten years after the Akira in the era most known for Borg, Klingon, Dominion, and Romulan aggression.

As KingDaniel correctly says, the Luna class is designed for exploration, not combat. Let's remember that exploration and diplomacy are Starfleet's primary function. The purpose of the Luna fleet's mission is to fulfill that function -- to venture forth, meet new species, and present the most positive face of the Federation to them. The Luna project was initiated when the Bajoran Wormhole was discovered, with the goal of exploring the Gamma Quadrant, but was put on hold in favor of more combat-oriented classes (such as the Akira) when the Dominion threat manifested. Clearly it's not meant to be a battleship.

I mean, in my view if you're going to bother to design a ship that looks a lot like a pre-existing ship, I would expect the newer ship to build upon the previous design and improve upon it. I don't see that happening here.

Who says that the only way to "improve" a ship is to add weapons? The Luna class has many improvements that serve its primary functions: state-of-the-art propulsion, the most advanced sensors in Starfleet history, an improved holographic stellar-cartography lab, cutting-edge science labs and experimental technologies, highly adaptable life-support and equipment configurations to accommodate its diverse crew, etc.

Okay, so what I'm getting is they're apple and oranges. Basically comparing the Nebula to the Ambasador for all intents and purposes.

One ship is not built upon the ideas of the other, which is fine.

Though, it was my impression that the Akira was designed (like the Defiant) with the Borg in mind, and therefore Starfleet should still be considering this in all future designs, particuarlly considering the direction Trek-Lit had taken recently... but that's just me.

 

[Christopher]

Though, it was my impression that the Akira was designed (like the Defiant) with the Borg in mind, and therefore Starfleet should still be considering this in all future designs, particuarlly considering the direction Trek-Lit had taken recently... but that's just me.

Well, first off, why should every ship be designed for combat? Whatever happened to specialization? You wouldn't expect a Coast Guard cutter to have the same armaments as a Naval aircraft carrier, or a cargo plane to have the same armaments as a stealth bomber. Starfleet is a combined scientific and defensive service, so it stands to reason that they would have some ships specialized for science, others specialized for combat, and others designed as multipurpose vessels.

Second, if we're talking about future starship designs relative to the current novel timeline, then designing them with the Borg in mind would be rather pointless. And as for the timeframe when the Luna-class ships were put into service, it was after the Dominion War had ended and after Voyager had dealt a crippling blow to the Borg and robbed them of their ability to reach the Alpha Quadrant in less than decades (as far as anyone knew at the time). So there was no reason at that time to make Borg-fighting a universal priority of the fleet.

Anyway, Memory Beta says (noncanonically, of course) that the Akira was conceived in the 2350s with the Cardassian conflict in mind, so there doesn't seem to be a consensus that it was designed for Borg-fighting.

 

[Saquist]

I know Sean Tourangeau,who designed the USS Titan frequents this site from time to time, but something kinda bothers me about his design. This is simply my observation based on the images I’ve seen of the Luna-class, not at all based on its mission profile as I’ve not read any of the Titan books and have no plans to do so.

It seems to me that the Luna-class borrows a lot from the Akira-class. On the surface it would appear to have an almost identical performance markers as the Akira. Probably nearly identical top speeds/maneuverability, similar firing arcs, etc…

I expected that since it was of a similar size as the Akira that it would have superior firepower since it was first launched ten years after the Akira in the era most known for Borg, Klingon, Dominion, and Romulan aggression. Yet, the Luna-class has one fewer phaser array and depending on which view of the Akira you agree with, the Luna is short by about twelve torpedo tubes. I mean, in my view if you're going to bother to design a ship that looks a lot like a pre-existing ship, I would expect the newer ship to build upon the previous design and improve upon it. I don't see that happening here.

Don’t get me wrong, I personally think the Luna-class is beautiful and is possibly one of my favorite ships visually and stylistically.

I guess my point is that I don’t see any area where the Luna-class is an improvement over the Akira-class, except visually. But, that might just be me.

First the Akira's registry identifies it at somewhere between 15 and 20 years older than Galaxy like all of the ships introduced in First Contact. This is confusing because these are designs never seen before so we assume the ships new and because Sovereign is new the lifeboats on Sovereign are similar to those on these First Contact ships.

It's conflicting but Okuda clearly thinks of these as older designs and productions.

I tend to think of the Luna-class as the "little sister" to the Sovereign-class myself.

It's not.
The Tread Starter is right. I've talked with Sean on this issue before. He said on Simon Schulster Forum where the contest took place that the Design wasn't inspired by Akira (If memory surfices) I remember finding that difficult to believe.

Marco Palmieri said this...

Marco


First, "Mr. Palmieri" was my father's name. Everybody here calls me Marco.

Second: A simple side-by side comparison with the Akira-class shows that while the Sean's nacelles were clearly--and not unreasonably--influenced by them, they're no more the same than the Constitution-refit and Excelsior-class nacelles, the Galaxy and Intrepid nacelles, or the Sovereign and Nova nacelles.

Third, the Akira-class made its on-screen debut in First Contact, which takes place months prior to the Dominion War. Even if it was brand-new then, it would have had to have been designed years earlier.

Marco

Marco was over Trek Books at the time.
He was politically...evasive at the time but very polite.

The Akira is meant for a crew of humans or humanoid aliens, whereas the Titan has a far more diverse crew (including non-humanoids, both low and high gravity species, and aquatics), and therefore a more complex life-support arrangement.

I always think that almost every Starfleet ship is capable of carrying any kind of life-form (smaller ships like the Defiant- or Sabre-Class would be the exception). The whole thing with the Titan being the "most diverse crew in the fleet" really annoys the hell out of me, but that is a discussion for another thread.

I doubt Starfleet would discriminate against non-humanoids by not having facilities for them. But like I said, that's just my thought.

As for the Luna-Class, I'd agree with C.E. Evans in that it is the Sovereign's "little sister", much like the Miranda was to the Constitution.

-Bry

The Luna has very little design ques from Sovereign. Specifically only 2. The Seperation plane and deflector cowling (which I don't know why is there ) is reminiscent of Sovereign. The Lower phaser array and torpedo tubes bellow the Deflector. There is a third but it's lifepods which aren't a distinct design feature.

The Saucer shape isn't even round in many areas even if mildly elliptical.

The configuration of the ship is completely different for Sovereign aside from a Saucer stardrive and two nacelles. It is actually a Nebula configuration. With low slung nacelles and Suspended upper pod.

The Akira Features

The dorsal Booms on the Saucer
The markings in front of both bridges has similarities
The Bussard Bulge is similar to Akira
The Blue vents on the side of the nacelles have the same one step graduation toward the rear
Both ships have the nacelles cocked to a similar angle of around 15 degrees from vertical
The nacelles display a separate vent patch on the bottom just behind the bussards (shape is different)

That being said, Luna has very unique feautres such as it's saucer design, shape of saucer and Saucer Rim which has been seen no where else. The sensor pod is familar but we've seen it absolutely nowhere else. Nor is the entire rear of the stardrive, the shuttlebay deck and the radical angle of the spine seen anywhere else. I think the design stands on it's own with more than just a few unique design points.

(This was not what I wanted to see for the Luna class) But it was THE BEST submission and the best presentation. As I looked over the design it was clear it was done with an immense amount of thought.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I tend to think of the Luna-class as the "little sister" to the Sovereign-class myself.

It's not.

Still going about as the self-appointed arbiter of Trek, eh?


By now, you should know your declarations means nothing to me and doesn't change anything.

 

[Saquist]

I tend to think of the Luna-class as the "little sister" to the Sovereign-class myself.

It's not.

Still going about as the self-appointed arbiter of Trek, eh?


By now, you should know your declarations means nothing to me and doesn't change anything.

By now...I've forgotten just about any and every conversation I've had with you previously. Is there something I should remember about you?

 

[C.E. Evans]

That what you say doesn't mean anything.

 

[Christopher]

^As I read it, Saquist was merely passing on what the ship's own designer has told him, namely, that it was not intended to be a knockoff of the Sovereign or Akira class, despite having some features in common with both. There's no need to get personal or confrontational here. It's just a fictional spaceship.

 

[Saquist]

That what you say doesn't mean anything.

I'll try to remember that next time.

Sean Tourangeau
Yes the Miranda (Reliant) Class had a lot of influnce on my design choice to place the Nacelles in a low slung position. I did use the Ent-E and Akira as reference so that I would get the starfleet feel.
I added a little Ent-D in the Saucer side profile to get the Next-Gen Feel.

I'll admit that the four-lobed active sensor element was bases off of the Excelsior and Ent-A sensors since I was at a loss of how to depict sensors.

Unfortunatly when I put the a sensor station on the underside of the sauce I forgot to include a captain's skiff. But I have since designed with Marco the Captain's Skiff. It is designed flush with the lower saucer behind the sensors.

Attached you will see what I mean.

Also here is the fixed aft veiw that Marco asked me to fix.

Also the Lounge on deck one is now facing forward to match how it was described in the books.

http://forums.simonandschuster.com/topic.php?id=12107&page=6

That it is the sensor paltform that houses the Titan's new sensor webing. The launchers that you see in the pod are actually Dedicated Prob Launchers. It was decided by Marco and myself to change them from Torpedo Launchers to Prob launchers because we didn't want the Titan to be to overly armed. Since she is a exploration vessel not a warship

As for the reason that I put the sensor pod away from the main hull is as I explained earlier in the forum I believe it was this
one, if not here I go again.

I envisioned the Titan to be sorta like the Airforce's and Navy's Awacs Aircraft. The Awacs has there sensor equipment mounted
above the aircraft to get better range. Also I figured why do you
need the pod to be manned? I thought that it could be an
automated platform.

Also by seperating it from the main hull you have more room for the science labs and other test bed technology that the Titan is supposed to be carring.

That was also a round about reason, besides my love of the Miranda Class that I put the nacelles onto the lower part of
the hull.

That way the warp feild does not interfer with the sensors.

 

[C.E. Evans]

^As I read it, Saquist was merely passing on what the ship's own designer has told him, namely, that it was not intended to be a knockoff of the Sovereign or Akira class, despite having some features in common with both. There's no need to get personal or confrontational here. It's just a fictional spaceship.

Mind your own business, please.

 

[Christopher]

^This is a public forum. This thread is equally the "business" of everyone who posts in it, and we are all free to contribute as we wish to the discussion.

 

[C.E. Evans]

There's also don't start no shit won't be none.

 

[ProwlAlpha]

As far as I have read, the Luna is a perfect balance in exploration and a combat vessel. Besides, the number of weapons on a vessel doesn't make it more powerful. If you look at the Arleigh Burke Class DDG and compare it to a Cleveland Class CL (comparable size in a mission), the Cleveland class has a much more armament, but the Arleigh Burke is vastly more powerful. Even if we go a little closer to the modern era, the Kidd Class DDG is larger and more armament, but the Arleigh Burke is still more powerful.

I kind of like the Luna's look. It is much in tone with Starfleet's design ethic. Constitution Refit-Miranda, Excelsior-Centaur, Galaxy-Nebula, and now Sovereign-Luna.