Is Pike now 'damaged goods' as commanding officer?

[Jedi Marso]

Quoted from the Hegemony thread:

Any other Trek captain wouldn’t have needed to stop and deliberate on whether to save their people. Pike needs to get out his kitchen more and work on his command mojo next season. Although I guess its possible the advance knowledge of his fate has compromised his confidence in making decisions.

Pike hasn't shown a great deal this season in terms of being a great captain. That's on the writers, of course.

But 'in-game', so to speak, you have to wonder if Pike is now damaged goods as a commanding officer. He's had two looks at his possible future, and both end horribly. He has also been made aware that Spock's future is a critical part of how things go in the future for Starfleet and the Federation. Now that he has embraced the future in which he becomes crippled, he has to weigh every decision against the certain knowledge that he will survive, but not necessarily anyone else around him. That is a terrible burden for anyone to carry. especially as the one responsible for the lives of the others.

In the episode where they hid from the Gorn in the gas giant, Pike seemed to embrace his knowledge of the future and use it to their advantage. In that scenario it made sense- since they were all aboard the ship, he knew that if he had to survive, the ship had to survive with him, and by extension the crew along with it. But in the finale, nothing is certain at all, except that he knows he'll survive it. He's probably half-paralyzed trying to measure the outcome of every potential choice bounced off of what he knows of the future. Does he need to withdraw and save Spock, sacrificing La'an, M'Benga, Ortegas, and the others? Or can he save them all? How can he save them all? He's already seen first-hand, in a future vision, how his decisions led to a catastrophic outcome, and he's almost certainly afraid of that happening again. It would be a confidence-buster for just about anyone.

You just have to wonder: is Pike holding on too tight? Has he lost the edge?

 

[fireproof78]

I don't think he's lost his edge at all. I think he is a man, who is facing down nearly impossible decisions in the moment based upon his crew's, the Cayuga's crew's, the future of peace with the Gorn and other terrible outcomes. To me, his command presence is one that shows a failing he had since "The Cage." He is introspective. In some moments that works well; he can read people, he can perceive different challenges, and he is a shrew negotiator. But, in this moment, his hands are tied, he struggles with the loss of people close to him, and now faces devastating consequences, both personally and professionally.

Even without his knowledge of the future I see him struggling.

 

[drt]

Unfortunately, I think how they shot the last scene of the finale to be all drawn out, dramatic and "to be continuedey" didn't do Pike any favors, it just made him look indecisive at a critical time.

 

[Mudd]

Nope.

Hey, everyone - what's the "heroic action or order" that would make any fucking sense in that moment - without ignoring or discounting any aspect of the trap that the writers set?

They didn't leave a facility "Fire!" out for Pike the way they did for Riker.

Next.

That's the actual cliffhanger dilemma.

 

[Oddish]

Pike is the quintessential Starfleet captain, for better or for worse. The takeaway from "Balance of Terror" and "A Quality of Mercy" is that Starfleet ideals aren't always the ideal solution. Sometimes, you just need a "Romulan Hello".

 

[valkyrie013]

My only complaint this season is Pikes story,
One, not that much of it, since he's child was born and hes litterally not there sometimes.
He's had some good stuff, but for being #1 on the call sheet, he's been in the background ALOT.

 

[Paul755]

Unfortunately, I think how they shot the last scene of the finale to be all drawn out, dramatic and "to be continuedey" didn't do Pike any favors, it just made him look indecisive at a critical time.

I don’t think Pike has become weaker or “lost his edge” but they did really drag that last scene a few beats too long.

 

[matthunter]

Pike's choices right now are "stay and fight" - against several of the ships that obliterated the Cayuga - or follow Starfleet's orders and leave (which will heavily impact crew morale). Rescuing his crew needs a PLAN, and a plan is going to take time to come up with. Pike needs to find a way to buy that time that doesn't make it look like he's disobeying orders OR abandoning his people, and that's not a snap decision like stopping the Borg with a weapon you have every reason to believe will stop them cold at the expense of ONE person, even if that person IS Picard.

 

[TheFlutteringHorde]

No. The entire arc of the first season was him coming to grips with his fate, and he's been plenty willing to make quick decisive actions throughout the entire second season that put both himself and his crew at risk. Hell he was willing to blow up an entire Starfleet station in a moment's notice in Lost in Translation.

 

[Mudd]

I don’t think Pike has become weaker or “lost his edge” but they did really drag that last scene a few beats too long.

Possibly, yes.

Pike's choices right now are "stay and fight" - against several of the ships that obliterated the Cayuga - or follow Starfleet's orders and leave (which will heavily impact crew morale). Rescuing his crew needs a PLAN, and a plan is going to take time to come up with. Pike needs to find a way to buy that time that doesn't make it look like he's disobeying orders OR abandoning his people, and that's not a snap decision like stopping the Borg with a weapon you have every reason to believe will stop them cold at the expense of ONE person, even if that person IS Picard.

One might guess that that Lieutenant J.G.'s Scott's ingenuity and recent experience at improvising anti-Gorn tech will come into play in devising a way to pass undetected close to the Gorn vessels...

 

[Jedi Marso]

No. The entire arc of the first season was him coming to grips with his fate, and he's been plenty willing to make quick decisive actions throughout the entire second season that put both himself and his crew at risk. Hell he was willing to blow up an entire Starfleet station in a moment's notice in Lost in Translation.

The difference being that blowing up the station wasn't going to cost the life of anyone close to him- or anyone's lives, for that matter. In the finale, he's frozen with indecision there at the end. I was half-expecting Una to start issuing orders on her own.

 

[Mudd]

Pike's our guy.

 

[fireproof78]

I think I should start printing "I like Pike" pins.

 

[Search4]

I think the OP makes a good point. I would add the crew was late telling him there was no one rescued - that should have been indicated the moment they had troubles (iirc all the sickbay scenes were first). They all lost valuable time.

Whether it’s retreat and regroup or fight and win or my personal favorite - tractor the Gorn ship across the red line - he should be acting immediately. Una’s ask for “orders” was a clear indication he’s not handling this well.

And: there are many colonist survivors, in his own words. He should have been ready given the situation.

 

[TheFlutteringHorde]

The difference being that blowing up the station wasn't going to cost the life of anyone close to him- or anyone's lives, for that matter. In the finale, he's frozen with indecision there at the end. I was half-expecting Una to start issuing orders on her own.

Exactly. The situation in the finale is a uniquely difficult one, but that doesn't mean that Pike's lost his edge at all based on his actions in previous episodes. Even within the episode we're talking about he made several notable snap decisions that could have killed everyone, notably bringing Batel back to the Enterprise with him. I wouldn't even describe him as frozen or paralyzed in that moment at the end, he's visibly pacing towards the viewscreen and making eye contact with the crew. To me his body language and the way they filmed it make it seem like he's trying to think of a way out, not that he's frozen with indecision where I would expect him to be less animated, but that could just be me.

If they had cut Best of Both Worlds so it ends on a close up of Riker's face for three seconds before and moved him saying fire to the start of the next one, would people be arguing that Riker is somehow "damaged goods"? Especially since the entire episode beforehand was basically about how he did not have that edge anymore compared to Shelby? I don't think that's a judgement we can make with Pike at this stage that when it's not reflected in anything we've seen him do this season. If they wanted to do that kind of story I think they would have kept the thread of his fear and doubt over his fate from the first season going, but they didn't.

 

[Admiral Archer]

Is this any different from when Picard waited several seconds in "First Contact" to give the order to fire on the Borg cube, while quite a number of Starfleet ships were obliterated while standing by? Yet people still adore Jean-luc Picard as a captain and as a human being.

Picard and Pike are both my favorite captains, mostly because in sharp contrast to most of the other captains who shoot first and ask questions later, they take time to think. Unfortunately the side effect is they can overthink things sometimes, which can and sometimes does cost lives. It is an obvious failing, but it is a human response, and one that is a realistic example of the thinking man as a commanding officer.

My point is, both the action men (Kirk, Sisko) and the thinking men (Pike, Picard) have their strengths and weaknesses. Because they are all human, and they all have potential for greatness even in the face of the mistakes they make.

 

[Mudd]

Exactly. The situation in the finale is a uniquely difficult one, but that doesn't mean that Pike's lost his edge at all based on his actions in previous episodes. Even within the episode we're talking about he made several notable snap decisions that could have killed everyone, notably bringing Batel back to the Enterprise with him. I wouldn't even describe him as frozen or paralyzed in that moment at the end, he's visibly pacing towards the viewscreen and making eye contact with the crew. To me his body language and the way they filmed it make it seem like he's trying to think of a way out, not that he's frozen with indecision where I would expect him to be less animated, but that could just be me.

If they had cut Best of Both Worlds so it ends on a close up of Riker's face for three seconds before and moved him saying fire to the start of the next one, would people be arguing that Riker is somehow "damaged goods"? Especially since the entire episode beforehand was basically about how he did not have that edge anymore compared to Shelby? I don't think that's a judgement we can make with Pike at this stage that when it's not reflected in anything we've seen him do this season. If they wanted to do that kind of story I think they would have kept the thread of his fear and doubt over his fate from the first season going, but they didn't.

Riker was prepared for exactly what happened. He had a weapon in place. The two situations are not comparable.

 

[Brightside-16]

I have to think of this in context of the Klingon War in Discovery. Pike knows all too well the weight of a quick decision.

 

[Phoenix219]

Is this any different from when Picard waited several seconds in "First Contact" to give the order to fire on the Borg cube, while quite a number of Starfleet ships were obliterated while standing by? Yet people still adore Jean-luc Picard as a captain and as a human being.

Picard and Pike are both my favorite captains, mostly because in sharp contrast to most of the other captains who shoot first and ask questions later, they take time to think. Unfortunately the side effect is they can overthink things sometimes, which can and sometimes does cost lives. It is an obvious failing, but it is a human response, and one that is a realistic example of the thinking man as a commanding officer.

My point is, both the action men (Kirk, Sisko) and the thinking men (Pike, Picard) have their strengths and weaknesses. Because they are all human, and they all have potential for greatness even in the face of the mistakes they make.

With how much of TNG came from previous iterations (Will Decker-Riker, Ilia-Troi, Data-Xon-Questor), I've always held a curiosity in my head, if Picard was Pike-ard, right down to "Engage."

 

[Oddish]

Also, there's a difference between killing one Borgified person and having to attack a Gorn ship with hundreds of people on it.