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When I think "contemporary drama" I think of a show set in the moment the show was made and more or less in the world as we know it. Is Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea S1 (later seasons are clearly fantastical) contemporary because it's an set a few years in the future on a sub where they've developed herculite for the glass nose? From what little we have on The Tribunes, it sounds like a Voyage case to me, not only with devices not yet invented, but that its portrayal of cops as Judge Dredd-like (a comparison I made to @Harvey in a text) requires a lot of laws to be changed to allow for it, which sounds rather less contemporary than say Mannix.

I would certainly say The Tribunes sounds less contemporary than Police Story or 333 Montgomery. YMMV
 
When I think "contemporary drama" I think of a show set in the moment the show was made and more or less in the world as we know it. Is Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea S1 (later seasons are clearly fantastical) contemporary because it's an set a few years in the future on a sub where they've developed herculite for the glass nose? From what little we have on The Tribunes, it sounds like a Voyage case to me, not only with devices not yet invented, but that its portrayal of cops as Judge Dredd-like (a comparison I made to @Harvey in a text) requires a lot of laws to be changed to allow for it, which sounds rather less contemporary than say Mannix.

I would certainly say The Tribunes sounds less contemporary than Police Story or 333 Montgomery. YMMV

A lot of "futuristic" shows are in a contemporary setting. I cited Search, Knight Rider, and the bionic shows as examples. The Questor Tapes is another. Assignment: Earth would have been. APB, the closest thing to The Tribunes that I've seen on the air, was set in the present day.

Many shows of this type reconcile "near-future" tech with a present-day setting by positing slightly alternate worlds where the necessary progress has already been made, e.g. Dr. Rudy Wells's bionics research being far beyond the real-life state of the art, or Eureka's super-advanced scientific think-tank city having secretly been around since the 1940s. Even Mission: Impossible or The Man from UNCLE had a lot of "present-day" spy hardware that was more advanced than anything that existed in reality at the time, such as supercomputers or lifelike masks or advanced mind-control drugs. And sometimes it's not just tech, but laws and institutions, for instance UNCLE being an international crimefighting/intelligence organization with US and Soviet cooperation.

Besides, nothing posited in The Tribunes is that much beyond the 1970s state of the art. Using blinding lights or chemical sprays (sounds like mace, basically) to restrain people is hardly sci-fi stuff. The rest is just bringing the police up to the standards they could have had already if they weren't stuck in the past. As Roddenberry put it in TWoST, p. 271-2:

"Isn't it silly that a cop is out there on a beat really basically equipped no better than a policeman in 1912 was equipped, with a gun and a badge? About the only addition the average squad car has is a shotgun and a radio, and usually the radio doesn't work much better than a taxicab radio.
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"Our hope is that some of these ideas will filter down into actual police work. We hope that our ideas might be able to lead the way. We have some police administrators around the country who are very anxious for us to do the series."

So it wasn't about taking something modern and projecting it into a pie-in-the-sky future -- it was about taking something woefully, ridiculously antiquated and bringing it into the present, saying "This is how it should already be done today." That last line about police admins being eager to see the series was probably his usual bluster, but it shows that he saw the series as depicting attainable goals for the immediate future. (Not unlike how Arthur Conan Doyle used Sherlock Holmes to popularize forensic methods that he believed the police should be using.)

Indeed, some of what he's proposing sounds almost exactly like the kind of police-reform proposals I'm hearing today in real life -- require a college degree and more extensive legal training, reduce dependence on firearms, encourage de-escalation, etc. He wasn't proposing a fantasy, he was advocating for realistic police reforms that he felt were long overdue and that are still unrealized half a century later.
 
Three, it used basic less-lethal restraint methods like bright lights or chemical sprays, stuff within the realm of current possibility in the '70s, rather than something more sci-fi like phasers on stun. If that was "the latest," then it can't have been very far ahead.

Yes, but the very next paragraph in the Van Hise book suggests a fundamental restructuring of the justice system, not merely an elite unit using experimental (fantasy) technology. Per Van Hise, "They also are magistrates, can take testimony, settle cases on the spot, issue subpoenas and the like."

It's amusing to me that Roddenberry talks about police with Gestapo powers leading to a fascist civilization in The World of Star Trek, because Van Hise's description of Tribunes sounds very much like the fascist fantasies of a couple of ex-policeman who would like to remove those pesky judges, juries, and lawyers from the equation.

And four, Roddenberry gave up on it because he felt it was too much like all the other cop shows on the air, suggesting that aside from the tech and the methods, the overall feel wouldn't have been that different from a more mundane cop show.

Roddenberry's claim here—that he didn't pursue further development of the concept in the 80s because there were too many other cop shows—is difficult to take at face value. He was developing Tribunes from 1973-77 when an absolute glut of police shows were on the air including The F.B.I., Adam-12, Police Story, Police Woman, The Rookies, Starsky and Hutch, Barney Miller, Baretta, McMillan & Wife, McCloud, Kojak, CHiPs, The Streets of San Francisco, Toma, Hawaii 5-0, S.W.A.T., Columbo, The Blue Knight, Chopper One, Ironside, Joe Forrester, and Most Wanted. (And that list doesn't include the glut of private eye shows like Mannix, Cannon, Shaft, and others that were on the air during this same period.)
 
Yes, but the very next paragraph in the Van Hise book suggests a fundamental restructuring of the justice system, not merely an elite unit using experimental (fantasy) technology. Per Van Hise, "They also are magistrates, can take testimony, settle cases on the spot, issue subpoenas and the like."

Which, again, doesn't rule out a slightly alternate-world present-day setting. There have been countless shows depicting a "present" that was more advanced than, or institutionally and legally different from, the real world in some specific way. UNCLE supposedly existed in 1964 even though that required a degree of international and East-West cooperation that would've taken decades to build from that point in real life. The CSI franchise was in an alternate reality where crime-scene analysts participated directly in police investigations even though that would be a gross conflict of interest in real life (you can't perform an unbiased scientific analysis of evidence from a crime you personally investigated).

A lot of speculative fiction is "What if the future turns out this way?" But a lot of it, especially in TV, is "What if the present were already this way?" Again, the key is not the surface technicalities, but Roddenberry's professed intent -- to offer an alternative to outmoded police methods and show the way it could be done in an ideal present, in hopes of inspiring similar reform in the immediate future. At most, it would've been a very near-future setting indistinguishable from the present except for its one speculative element, which is too narrow a hair to be worth splitting.


It's amusing to me that Roddenberry talks about police with Gestapo powers leading to a fascist civilization in The World of Star Trek, because Van Hise's description of Tribunes sounds very much like the fascist fantasies of a couple of ex-policeman who would like to remove those pesky judges, juries, and lawyers from the equation.

Like many utopian visions, it presumes that human nature can be perfected, that people can be educated well enough to be fully responsible and just in their own right, so that they no longer need checks and balances on their excesses. Roddenberry posited an idealized police force that could be trusted to use its power responsibly and compassionately, and thus could be granted more power as a result.

Again, I'm reminded of Flashpoint, which was about a Toronto SWAT-style team outfitted with the most advanced weapons but also the most enlightened psychological methods and training for understanding violent offenders and talking them down and finding peaceful solutions and only using lethal force as a last resort. I quite liked it at the time, but today it feels obscenely naive to suggest that such a hypermilitarized police unit could be that good and wise and compassionate and responsible in their use of force. (Now, there's an alternate present for you.)


Roddenberry's claim here—that he didn't pursue further development of the concept in the 80s because there were too many other cop shows—is difficult to take at face value. He was developing Tribunes from 1973-77 when an absolute glut of police shows were on the air including The F.B.I., Adam-12, Police Story, Police Woman, The Rookies, Starsky and Hutch, Barney Miller, Baretta, McMillan & Wife, McCloud, Kojak, CHiPs, The Streets of San Francisco, Toma, Hawaii 5-0, S.W.A.T., Columbo, The Blue Knight, Chopper One, Ironside, Joe Forrester, and Most Wanted. (And that list doesn't include the glut of private eye shows like Mannix, Cannon, Shaft, and others that were on the air during this same period.)

Huh? I quoted the Van Hise passage in comment #138 above. It said, "After several years of trying, in 1977 he realized that TRIBUNES, a futuristic cop show, would never go beyond the development stage." There was nothing about the '80s.

And there was an earlier passage in the book saying that he was working on a cop-show premise that might have been The Tribunes around the same time he was developing Star Trek. So it may have been an idea he had in mind since the '60s, tried to develop in earnest in the '70s, but then gave up on when network execs he pitched it to didn't feel it stood out enough from the pack.
 
Huh? I quoted the Van Hise passage in comment #138 above. It said, "After several years of trying, in 1977 he realized that TRIBUNES, a futuristic cop show, would never go beyond the development stage." There was nothing about the '80s.

I was talking specifically about the following Roddenberry quote, given to Van Hise after the project was dead, which you quoted earlier. I suspect it was given in the mid-to-late 1980s, based on the timing of other Roddenberry quotes in the book, but the book is not clear about the provenance of Roddenberry’s comments.

“The police series was intended to have been an effect on my part to show police work as it should have been done. It would have shown policemen having to have six years of college minimum, instead of the present academy, and also using the proper scientific method in solving cases. I would like to have done it. I think it’s too late to so it now because there’s already like thirty police shows on and I just don’t want to be one of the thirty.”

Unless and until any story material from 1973-77 emerges, I think this conversation has run its course.
 
I think we are pointlessly quibbling over a single word here. Our intended use of "contemporary" meant Hawaii 5-0, not Holmes and Yo-Yo. :)

Yes, but speculative fiction is and always has been more about Alternative Presents than about Alternative Futures. Even stories set an unknown but short 'some years from now' are meant to be viewed as 'what if this happens to us?' versus 'what if this happens to our grandkids?'

And Holmes and Yo-Yo is just the sitcom version of Futurecop, anyway.
 
Yes, but speculative fiction is and always has been more about Alternative Presents than about Alternative Futures. Even stories set an unknown but short 'some years from now' are meant to be viewed as 'what if this happens to us?' versus 'what if this happens to our grandkids?'

And Holmes and Yo-Yo is just the sitcom version of Futurecop, anyway.
Most fiction takes place in Alternative Presents. ;)
 
I think we are pointlessly quibbling over a single word here. Our intended use of "contemporary" meant Hawaii 5-0, not Holmes and Yo-Yo. :)

If you have to explain what you meant after the fact, that's a sign that your text needs revision. (A lesson I often have to remind myself of when my first impulse is to argue with a copyeditor's note rather than making a better word choice.)

I've looked into how the word "contemporary" is used as a genre label. The general consensus (example) seems to be that "contemporary fiction" means fiction depicting things that could happen in the present, with no particular "genre" element. I guess that's the definition you were using. However, there is also contemporary fantasy, as opposed to fantasy set in the past or alternate worlds. So it stands to reason that "contemporary" could refer to science fiction set in the present as well, even though that doesn't seem to be in use as a distinct genre label. I'd say the term is ambiguous without additional clarification.

So maybe instead of saying that Police Story was the last time Roddenberry would tackle law enforcement "in a contemporary setting," it would be clearer to say "in a non-speculative setting" or something of the sort.


Most fiction takes place in Alternative Presents. ;)

I've seen it said that "mainstream" or "non-genre" fiction is just a subset of science fiction. Like SF, it's speculative fiction about unreal situations; it just limits them to unreal people, institutions, events, etc. And of course it's just as much a distinct genre as SF or fantasy or mystery or horror, and in many ways a far more narrow and restrictive genre.
 
I've looked into how the word "contemporary" is used as a genre label. The general consensus (example) seems to be that "contemporary fiction" means fiction depicting things that could happen in the present, with no particular "genre" element. I guess that's the definition you were using.
My opinion is that there's no substantial ambiguity in following the general consensus regarding how a term is used.
 
Still not "contemporary" in my book.
If you have to explain what you meant after the fact, that's a sign that your text needs revision. (A lesson I often have to remind myself of when my first impulse is to argue with a copyeditor's note rather than making a better word choice.)

I've looked into how the word "contemporary" is used as a genre label. The general consensus (example) seems to be that "contemporary fiction" means fiction depicting things that could happen in the present, with no particular "genre" element. I guess that's the definition you were using. However, there is also contemporary fantasy, as opposed to fantasy set in the past or alternate worlds. So it stands to reason that "contemporary" could refer to science fiction set in the present as well, even though that doesn't seem to be in use as a distinct genre label. I'd say the term is ambiguous without additional clarification.

So maybe instead of saying that Police Story was the last time Roddenberry would tackle law enforcement "in a contemporary setting," it would be clearer to say "in a non-speculative setting" or something of the sort.




I've seen it said that "mainstream" or "non-genre" fiction is just a subset of science fiction. Like SF, it's speculative fiction about unreal situations; it just limits them to unreal people, institutions, events, etc. And of course it's just as much a distinct genre as SF or fantasy or mystery or horror, and in many ways a far more narrow and restrictive genre.
Just. Let. It. Go. Jesus, man. These arguments are beyond tiresome.
 
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You couldn't pay me enough Cash to say that name.

Right on the Mark, man.

(The sentence to be carried out for this post is thirty lashes, right?)

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Just. Let. It. Go. Jesus, man. These arguments are beyond tiresome.

I don't understand your attitude. This isn't hostility, this is editorial feedback. You're researchers who are thorough in your work and concerned with accuracy, which should go hand in hand with being able to accept feedback and critiques about ambiguous or misleading passages. Or to participate with an open and curious mind in discussions about the intended focus and setting of a premise like The Tribunes, in the name of gaining a deeper understanding of the subject. I've just been trying to clarify what is known about The Tribunes, to pursue understanding in the same spirit as the work you do. I regret that you seem to have mistaken my intent for something more confrontational.
 
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