Impulse Drive: What do we know? (Non-canon speculation)

[C.E. Evans]

Actually after watching all of the TOS original FX episodes for my Thermianish project I would say that TOS was very consistent in their presentation (due to only having 3 seasons ).

I would say the same thing about TNG during its 7 seasons. Stock footage and reused VFX components tend to do that.

I've pointed out where in TOS that Max Acceleration was called out for impulse in previous post. If you'd like to point out anything specific in TNG, that'd be great

There are 178 episodes of TNG. Take your pick.

But I'm not sure where this "Max Acceleration was called out for impulse" stuff comes from (I know it didn't come from me), but I do think that TNG ships can get up to speed faster than their TOS counterparts can after watching both shows. TNG ships seemed to go from naught to whatever speed was ordered instantly, while TOS ships seemed to take a little bit longer. Either it's a case that TNG ships have faster acceleration times or better mufflers than their TOS counterparts (I think it's a bit of both myself)

Pretty much the same case for the original Enterprise in that regard. Ship moved at the speed of plot regardless if it was at warp or impulse.

Hey, as long as the speed of plot was re-used from episode to episode in the same manner...

Which means that it will move at the same speed on camera regardless if the actual stated speeds and distances vary from episode to episode.

Say, which TOS episodes did the speed of the ship plot seem to be slower than TNG speeds?

That's really digressing from my point about speed of plot. Basically, it means that that the ship will always move as fast as the story requires it to move--regardless of what it was able to do in a previous story. You can do all the math you want in one episode, but then chuck it out the window for the next.

What I can also say is that TOS-universe warp speeds is significantly faster than TNG-universe warp speeds based on the episodes themselves which also adds to my thinking that TNG impulse acceleration were about the same or slower than TOS.

Basically, it falls down to an opinion or how one chooses to perceive how things are.

Then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

There's nothing to agree or disagree on. It's simply different viewpoints.

You believe TNG has faster impulse acceleration times and I do not and that's that

Neither can be proven correct or incorrect, so there's no right or wrong answer. Both are subject to dramatic necessity (speed of plot).

..if you factor in how time and distance may be compressed or decompressed onscreen for dramatic purposes...

Unless you find a single, continuous shot. But that doesn't matter in this case as you're arguing based on whether something feels fast or not which as you have said, is purely one's opinion and not based on any evidence.

It's the same thing as the opinion you presented here.

 

[blssdwlf]

There are 178 episodes of TNG. Take your pick.

And you're saying none exists in all of 178 episodes that support your opinion?

But I'm not sure where this "Max Acceleration was called out for impulse" stuff comes from (I know it didn't come from me), but I do think that TNG ships can get up to speed faster than their TOS counterparts can after watching both shows.

But you're unwilling to give specifics, eh?

Max acceleration for impulse was called out in "The Squire of Gothos" and it came on without delay. In the instances where I recall in TNG where Picard orders an impulse speed I did not remember seeing that happen faster than TOS.

So, for some kind of reference, it would help greatly with this discussion if you name a TNG episode... not too much to ask?

You can do all the math you want in one episode, but then chuck it out the window for the next.

That is not the case for TOS. For TNG, that might be different. Since no more episodes are being made for either one, no more chucking unless you just feel like it.

Neither can be proven correct or incorrect, so there's no right or wrong answer. Both are subject to dramatic necessity (speed of plot).

By discrediting both TOS and TNG as valid sources you're saying you believe TNG is faster "just because". Now that I better understand where you stand, that's cool

 

[C.E. Evans]

There are 178 episodes of TNG. Take your pick.

And you're saying none exists in all of 178 episodes that support your opinion?

No, I'm saying they mostly all do.

But I'm not sure where this "Max Acceleration was called out for impulse" stuff comes from (I know it didn't come from me), but I do think that TNG ships can get up to speed faster than their TOS counterparts can after watching both shows.

But you're unwilling to give specifics, eh?

Don't have to. You can take any episode you want that features a TNG-era ship traveling at impulse and see for yourself. You can start at the beginning with "Encounter At Farpoint" if you like.

Max acceleration for impulse was called out in "The Squire of Gothos" and it came on without delay.

The scene in question:

KIRK: Full power acceleration from orbit, Mister Scott.
SCOTT [OC]: Full power, sir.
KIRK: Emergency warp at the earliest possible moment, Mister Sulu.
SULU: Standing by to warp, sir.

From that, it seemed all Scotty was confirming that the ship was at full power prior to going to warp. Doesn't really offer anything else other than the ship was ready to go to warp after leaving the planet.

In the instances where I recall in TNG where Picard orders an impulse speed I did not remember seeing that happen faster than TOS.

I think in the majority of instances it happened faster than TOS, but the difference could be measured in seconds. Long enough to convince me, however, that it's faster.

So, for some kind of reference, it would help greatly with this discussion if you name a TNG episode... not too much to ask?

I actually said you can pick any TNG episode, but if you don't want to do that, I can indulge you. You can choose (and I'm picking at random) "Relics" or "Booby Trap," "Galaxy's Child" or any episode in which the Enterprise-D is seen going to impulse speed.

The only thing you'll notice, however, is the conn officer pressing a button and immediately confirming whatever impulse speed Picard ordered. Not very exciting unless the ship was in danger, I suppose.

You can do all the math you want in one episode, but then chuck it out the window for the next.

That is not the case for TOS.

It's the case for every Star Trek series and movie. Writers just make stuff up on the fly and the VFX team works mainly on the basis of what just looks good on camera. It's no different than them giving out specific distances in thousands of kilometers between the ships and then seeing them nearly nose to nose. It was the same situation in TOS, TNG, and even Star Trek XI. They don't sit down and worry about where the ship should really be at a certain specified velocity. Only fans do that.

For TNG, that might be different. Since no more episodes are being made for either one, no more chucking unless you just feel like it.

I have no idea what you meant by that last remark, but I maintain that every Trek production has fudged warp/impulse speeds, distances, and travel times to fit the particular story being told at the time.

Neither can be proven correct or incorrect, so there's no right or wrong answer. Both are subject to dramatic necessity (speed of plot).

By discrediting both TOS and TNG as valid sources you're saying you believe TNG is faster "just because". Now that I better understand where you stand, that's cool

It's the exact same as you saying TOS is faster "just because." Given that we (and neither the people who write for Trek) don't know the exact specifications (acceleration times, energy output at certain warp factors, etc.) of the engines of either the Enterprise or the Enterprise-D, we can't with total honesty say one is faster than the other. I think it's more likely that the Enterprise-D is faster after 100 years of technological progress, but we can just as easily say they both use the exact same engines and they just look different. We both can come up with plausible in-universe reasons to support our claims--heck, there was a thread not too long ago regarding warp scales in which I postulated why TNG ships are actually slower at warp than TOS ships, but since it can't be proven or disproven, it remains simply one way of looking at onscreen material.

 

[Timo]

FWIW, both the E-nil and the E-D had their respective runs through the well-known Sol system: the former in ST:TMP, the latter in "Best of Both Worlds Pt II". The former got from Earth (standstill) to Jupiter (sub-warp) in less than 1.8 hours, covering something like 3/4 lighthours of distance.

In the latter episode, the Borg dropped out of warp, engaged the Jupiter defenses, and were supposed to reach Earth 27 minutes later in the worst case scenario. The E-D at that point hoped to intercept in 42 minutes; when the E-D dropped to sublight and headed for Earth, 23 minutes of that remained, suggesting that 19 had elapsed and the Borg would be 8 minutes from Earth if they managed to defeat Jupiter in zero time (like they apparently defeated Mars, without slowing down). Sure enough, our heroes arrived at Earth only after the Borg were already there, suggesting the villains covered Jupiter to Earth at least within the same time the E-nil did the opposite journey (that is, the 42 minutes), and probably faster still (quite possibly just the 27); if the E-D was forced to drop out of warp at the same distance, they were even faster than the Borg, thus sort of justifying the idea that TNG beats TOS in this respect. Two emergency flights, two cases of covering the about 5-6 AUs that separate Jupiter and Earth, and TNG apparently did it almost twice as fast. Assuming Riker didn't slow down to impulse somewhere closer to Earth, but the logic of the episode doesn't really support this.

Of course, it may be that accelerating from standstill to impulse speeds is different from decelerating from impulse speed to standstill. There could be asymmetry if something like a "subspace brake" or a "subspace drag chute" exists, so that a ship at speed can use a technology separate from its engines in order to match speeds with the static subspace medium but cannot mirror that technology in order to accelerate. In that case, the E-D doesn't really triumph over the E-nil even in this example.

So what happens if you lose main power or take battle damage? How many things have interrupted shield functions in Trek? Shield thrust vectoring is an acceptable alternative but not a method one would like to rely on.

But forcefields in Trek are a more reliable technology than, say, steel walls or doorstops. After all, if a forcefield as much as hiccuped at any point during a five-year mission, the Enterprise would be immediate space dust, because a forcefield is the only thing keeping the antimatter from exploding.

Claiming that forcefield-based thrust vectoring would be an unreliable technology doesn't really pass muster - it's akin to saying that the military shouldn't use thrust reversers in aircraft that are being vitally held together by far more fragile metallic constructs.


Timo Saloniemi

 

[Crazy Eddie]

^ Besides, if the impulse engines have their own dedicated exhaust deflectors (say, a forcefield generated by the impulse deflection crystal) then it would be an integral part of the engines themselves with a lot of different backups and failure modes specific to engine operations.

 

[AriesIV]

LOTS of good stuff in here... wow.

 

[blssdwlf]

The scene in question:

KIRK: Full power acceleration from orbit, Mister Scott.
SCOTT [OC]: Full power, sir.
KIRK: Emergency warp at the earliest possible moment, Mister Sulu.
SULU: Standing by to warp, sir.

From that, it seemed all Scotty was confirming that the ship was at full power prior to going to warp. Doesn't really offer anything else other than the ship was ready to go to warp after leaving the planet.

That is just from the transcript and doesn't sound like you watched it. Watching it about one second after Scotty confirms, "Full power, sir" the acceleration sound fx come on. The full power acceleration was referring to getting away from the planet at impulse and was not related to full power for warp. A reverse-angle view on the main screen showed Gothos shrinking rapidly away. Further impulse turning while dodging Gothos in the episode happened as soon as Sulu pressed the button on his console.

I think in the majority of instances it happened faster than TOS, but the difference could be measured in seconds. Long enough to convince me, however, that it's faster.

I actually said you can pick any TNG episode, but if you don't want to do that, I can indulge you. You can choose (and I'm picking at random) "Relics" or "Booby Trap," "Galaxy's Child" or any episode in which the Enterprise-D is seen going to impulse speed.

The only thing you'll notice, however, is the conn officer pressing a button and immediately confirming whatever impulse speed Picard ordered. Not very exciting unless the ship was in danger, I suppose.

That wasn't so hard was it? I'll take a look and dust of some TNG episodes

It's the case for every Star Trek series and movie. Writers just make stuff up on the fly and the VFX team works mainly on the basis of what just looks good on camera. It's no different than them giving out specific distances in thousands of kilometers between the ships and then seeing them nearly nose to nose. It was the same situation in TOS, TNG, and even Star Trek XI. They don't sit down and worry about where the ship should really be at a certain specified velocity. Only fans do that.

Are you thinking of the new FX for TOS? Because the majority of episodes in the original FX for TOS that featured ship encounters that were suppose to take place thousands of kilometers away did not have both ships nearly nose to nose in the same shot.

I have no idea what you meant by that last remark, but I maintain that every Trek production has fudged warp/impulse speeds, distances, and travel times to fit the particular story being told at the time.

Neither can be proven correct or incorrect, so there's no right or wrong answer. Both are subject to dramatic necessity (speed of plot).

By discrediting both TOS and TNG as valid sources you're saying you believe TNG is faster "just because". Now that I better understand where you stand, that's cool

It's the exact same as you saying TOS is faster "just because."

Actually, no. You spent quite a few paragraphs detailing why we should not rely on all the episodes because they're making it up for the story and are not very consistent. I, on the other hand, do want to refer to the episodes as a reference point to see what we are talking about. If you had said, the E-D looks better with a third warp engine, I'd still ask which episode was that if I wasn't familiar with it

 

[blssdwlf]

Thanks Timo, I forgot about BOBW2

In TMP, the Enterprise-refit goes from Earth to Jupiter in 1.8 hours at Warp 0.5 which works out to be either 0.3c to 0.5c depending on the planets' locations.

In BOBW, it looks like both the Borg and the E-D are going FTL (either with impulse or warp) while in system.

Borg from Jupiter to Earth in 27 minutes works out to about 1.2c to 2c depending on planets' locations.

E-D after dropping out of warp at Saturn to intercept the Borg in 23 minutes works out to about 2.8c to 4c depending on planets' locations.

Okay, that's pretty fast (and FTL too)!

The only other times in TOS that impulse is mentioned or suggested to be FTL capable is "Where No Man Has Gone Before" but no time/distance was given.

But I wonder if the E-refit if coming into the system would be faster since they don't have to "blast out of orbit"?

FWIW, both the E-nil and the E-D had their respective runs through the well-known Sol system: the former in ST:TMP, the latter in "Best of Both Worlds Pt II". The former got from Earth (standstill) to Jupiter (sub-warp) in less than 1.8 hours, covering something like 3/4 lighthours of distance.

In the latter episode, the Borg dropped out of warp, engaged the Jupiter defenses, and were supposed to reach Earth 27 minutes later in the worst case scenario. The E-D at that point hoped to intercept in 42 minutes; when the E-D dropped to sublight and headed for Earth, 23 minutes of that remained, suggesting that 19 had elapsed and the Borg would be 8 minutes from Earth if they managed to defeat Jupiter in zero time (like they apparently defeated Mars, without slowing down). Sure enough, our heroes arrived at Earth only after the Borg were already there, suggesting the villains covered Jupiter to Earth at least within the same time the E-nil did the opposite journey (that is, the 42 minutes), and probably faster still (quite possibly just the 27); if the E-D was forced to drop out of warp at the same distance, they were even faster than the Borg, thus sort of justifying the idea that TNG beats TOS in this respect. Two emergency flights, two cases of covering the about 5-6 AUs that separate Jupiter and Earth, and TNG apparently did it almost twice as fast. Assuming Riker didn't slow down to impulse somewhere closer to Earth, but the logic of the episode doesn't really support this.

Of course, it may be that accelerating from standstill to impulse speeds is different from decelerating from impulse speed to standstill. There could be asymmetry if something like a "subspace brake" or a "subspace drag chute" exists, so that a ship at speed can use a technology separate from its engines in order to match speeds with the static subspace medium but cannot mirror that technology in order to accelerate. In that case, the E-D doesn't really triumph over the E-nil even in this example.

 

[Timo]

Borg from Jupiter to Earth in 27 minutes works out to about 1.2c to 2c depending on planets' locations.

E-D after dropping out of warp at Saturn to intercept the Borg in 23 minutes works out to about 2.8c to 4c depending on planets' locations.

Okay, that's pretty fast (and FTL too)!

OTOH, at high sublight, Einstein ought to kick in. Our heroes know they stand alone against the Borg. "Objective time" is irrelevant to their chase, then. And Data or Wes telling his CO that it will take 186 "real" minutes to catch the Borg is bad form if the intercept will take place in 42 subjective minutes - Riker might be only 1/4 through his preparations at the crucial moment if he were told the "objective" time...

So, if we want to turn the seeming 4c into sublight (that is, turn the 23 subjective minutes from Saturn to Earth into 4x23 minutes or more), we need to assume the sublight speed is 0.97c or higher. No real problem there save for acceleration time: if the ship can do a thousand gee, and we see her at Saturn at a speed that doesn't look like more than a percent of lightspeed at very best, then it ought to take several hours for her to work up to the required relativistic speed. Tens of thousands of gees would be called for to meet the "23 subjective minutes becomes 100 objective minutes or more" requirement within the time allotted.

The only other times in TOS that impulse is mentioned or suggested to be FTL capable is "Where No Man Has Gone Before" but no time/distance was given.

Oh, that's a bit too harshly put... Delta Vega was "a few lightdays" from the location where the warp-less ship was floating or coasting, and the distance was spanned between stardates 1312.9 and 1313.1, so we do have distance and time, sort of.

If Kirk's ship could match Picard's in sublight acceleration and speed, then "a few lightdays" should be traversable in a day or so without actually going FTL. If Kirk never went past half lightspeed, then time dilation is not his friend and the trip ought to take the better part of a week at least. The storyline as such doesn't preclude a multi-day journey, but 0.2 stardates is seldom indicated (or allowed) to be more than one day.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[blssdwlf]

@Timo - You could kind of explain away the E-D's 23 minutes as time dilation but what about the Borg? When the Borg are 27 minutes away to Earth from Jupiter the E-D was still at high warp racing to the star system.

As to WNMHGB, there is enough information to hazard a guess I suppose. They traveled "a few light-days" and probably a day or two given the small gap in the star dates as you've suggested (plus Gary Mitchell would've had more opportunities to stop the trip if it was longer) it would work out to...

high speed: 2 light-days in 1 day = 2c or 9 light-days in 1 day = 9c or
low speed: 2 light-days in 2 days = 1c or 9 light-days in 2 days = 4.5c... so between 1c to 9c.

Other stats in my notes that I found - "Balance of Terror", the Romulans running around on impulse could also be still FTL, the sublight leaving planet reverse-angle shots from "Squire of Gothos" (accelerate to ~0.3c in ~4s) or "Tomorrow is Yesterday" (accelerate to ~0.03c in ~4s)... probably a couple more examples...

 

[C.E. Evans]

The scene in question:

KIRK: Full power acceleration from orbit, Mister Scott.
SCOTT [OC]: Full power, sir.
KIRK: Emergency warp at the earliest possible moment, Mister Sulu.
SULU: Standing by to warp, sir.

From that, it seemed all Scotty was confirming that the ship was at full power prior to going to warp. Doesn't really offer anything else other than the ship was ready to go to warp after leaving the planet.

That is just from the transcript and doesn't sound like you watched it. Watching it about one second after Scotty confirms, "Full power, sir" the acceleration sound fx come on.

I did see the episode. In fact, the acceleration sound is why I generally think TOS ships have a slightly slower acceleration than those of TNG ships (which don't really have any kind of acceleration sound at all). Even still, it could easily just mean that Scotty was confirming that full power was available.

The full power acceleration was referring to getting away from the planet at impulse and was not related to full power for warp.

But you don't know that for certain, do you? You're speculating just as much as I am. There's more than one way to look at the scene--it can be related to full power for impulse and warp--so it's a matter of how you choose to interpret that particular scene.

A reverse-angle view on the main screen showed Gothos shrinking rapidly away. Further impulse turning while dodging Gothos in the episode happened as soon as Sulu pressed the button on his console.

Which proves...what? That the Enterprise was speeding away from Gothos once it broke free of orbit? I could have told you that.

I think in the majority of instances it happened faster than TOS, but the difference could be measured in seconds. Long enough to convince me, however, that it's faster.

I actually said you can pick any TNG episode, but if you don't want to do that, I can indulge you. You can choose (and I'm picking at random) "Relics" or "Booby Trap," "Galaxy's Child" or any episode in which the Enterprise-D is seen going to impulse speed.

The only thing you'll notice, however, is the conn officer pressing a button and immediately confirming whatever impulse speed Picard ordered. Not very exciting unless the ship was in danger, I suppose.

That wasn't so hard was it? I'll take a look and dust of some TNG episodes

Of course, you could have just--I dunno, picked any TNG episode as I said and see for yourself.

It's the case for every Star Trek series and movie. Writers just make stuff up on the fly and the VFX team works mainly on the basis of what just looks good on camera. It's no different than them giving out specific distances in thousands of kilometers between the ships and then seeing them nearly nose to nose. It was the same situation in TOS, TNG, and even Star Trek XI. They don't sit down and worry about where the ship should really be at a certain specified velocity. Only fans do that.

Are you thinking of the new FX for TOS?

Nope, I'm talking about Star Trek in general, in particular the scenes in which we see ships said to be tens of thousands of kilometers apart, and yet they both are seen fitting nicely onscreen together. That's done for dramatic necessity and because it looks good. As far as it being visually accurate, that's something only a few fans worry about.

I have no idea what you meant by that last remark, but I maintain that every Trek production has fudged warp/impulse speeds, distances, and travel times to fit the particular story being told at the time.

Neither can be proven correct or incorrect, so there's no right or wrong answer. Both are subject to dramatic necessity (speed of plot).

By discrediting both TOS and TNG as valid sources you're saying you believe TNG is faster "just because". Now that I better understand where you stand, that's cool

It's the exact same as you saying TOS is faster "just because."

Actually, no.

Actually, yes. Stating that "TOS warp speeds are significantly faster than TNG warp speeds" is no different than saying "TNG ships are faster than TOS ships," because we're both stating opinions based on the episodes. We could both come up with easy and plausible reasons for both claims to be valid, and yet there's no way to prove either as being true for every Trek episode.

You spent quite a few paragraphs detailing why we should not rely on all the episodes because they're making it up for the story and are not very consistent.

Indeed, and I stand by that.

I, on the other hand, do want to refer to the episodes as a reference point to see what we are talking about.

We all do what we prefer. I can pinpoint specific scenes from an episode in a specific Trek series, or I can talk about things in a very generalized manner that may cover all of them.

If you had said, the E-D looks better with a third warp engine, I'd still ask which episode was that if I wasn't familiar with it

To which I would have replied simply "the one with the alternate future."

 

[Timo]

@Timo - You could kind of explain away the E-D's 23 minutes as time dilation but what about the Borg? When the Borg are 27 minutes away to Earth from Jupiter the E-D was still at high warp racing to the star system.

The easiest explanation overall is that both the Borg and the heroes traveled at warp while insystem, of course. Virtually nothing in Trek lore would prevent them from doing so. Apparently, the Borg would drop down to impulse next to all the major planets because they wanted to engage the defenses there (to assimilate what they had to offer, and to make sure no opposing forces were left behind their backs when they finally hit Earth) - but they could reaccelerate to warp afterwards, which Data could predict to some accuracy and come up with the 27 minute figure.

However, our heroes had no comparable rationale for slowing down to impulse at Saturn. It would appear they were incapable of proceeding at warp beyond that point, then. In which case we could say that the 27 minute figure is sublight-with-relativity, just like the 42 and 23 minute intercept estimates are. Relativity will affect the heroes and the Borg alike, and the former can choose to express the results in terms that make the most practical sense to them.

the Romulans running around on impulse could also be still FTL

Or then the Romulans might be flying around at warp, unless we assume Scotty was right about his wild guess on Romulan power or propulsion systems...

Generally, anything below five times lightspeed is explainable as time dilation in sublight flight, since our Sol system examples and TNG Tech Manual doubletalk already suggest the ability to do better than 0.9 lightspeed at impulse. Whether it makes sense to go for that explanation is another matter.

TNG ships (which don't really have any kind of acceleration sound at all)

They very idea that the ships would have a sound associated with functionality X requires some suspension of disbelief, considering how far removed the working bits are from the bridge, in an environment where the only sound-carrying element is the structure of the ship itself. The E-D might simply have better soundproofing overall. Certainly the sounds of the phasers and torpedoes on the bridge appear synthetic, mere aural indicators of what's going on rather than actual sounds of machinery; the engines of that ship are also at a greater absolute distance from the bridge than on Kirk's ships.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[C.E. Evans]

TNG ships (which don't really have any kind of acceleration sound at all)

They very idea that the ships would have a sound associated with functionality X requires some suspension of disbelief, considering how far removed the working bits are from the bridge, in an environment where the only sound-carrying element is the structure of the ship itself. The E-D might simply have better soundproofing overall.

In one of my earlier posts, I did suggest that as one way of looking at it.

Certainly the sounds of the phasers and torpedoes on the bridge appear synthetic, mere aural indicators of what's going on rather than actual sounds of machinery; the engines of that ship are also at a greater absolute distance from the bridge than on Kirk's ships.

But then they're also noticeably bigger and closer to the secondary hull than Kirk's ship. So it can be looked at as either they simply run quieter, the sound doesn't travel as far throughout the ship, or they're more efficient, IMO.

 

[Timo]

Yup. Although I do massively dig the idea that the sounds of strain on Kirk's ship are coming from the bridge itself, and are related to the inertia-defying fields.

Now, if we could come up with a good explanation on why the assorted beeps and blorts of the bridge in TOS and on the Kelvin are so damn loud, too...

The bottom line seems to be that the performance of the impulse drive is never a limiting factor in plots. It's insufficient for interstellar travel but always sufficient for all other tasks, and the role of acceleration is negligible (suggesting effortless five-digit performance). And canon itself says the tech was perfected in the mid-21st century already, possibly meaning that every ship in every Trek show ever seen has enjoyed this "dramatically limitless" performance and that possible differences between individual classes and designs are outside the scope of onscreen analysis because they make no real difference.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Saquist]

But forcefields in Trek are a more reliable technology than, say, steel walls or doorstops. After all, if a forcefield as much as hiccuped at any point during a five-year mission, the Enterprise would be immediate space dust, because a forcefield is the only thing keeping the antimatter from exploding.

What we're really talking about is fail-secure and not fail-safe.
This is an engineering question. You have two options your operational viability, a powered option and a non powered option.

A physical thrust deflector already in place will need no power to operate in emergency situations. A fail-secure is always the simplest most direct method of insuring a function.

It doesn't matter how reliable the technology is. As a power system is will never be as reliable as a physical/mechanical object. For example, the turbolift uses one type of breaking system but it's fail-safe was a clamping system. Obviously the turbo lift lost power and it's normal breaking system was non operational. Fire systems are designed like wise, mechanical and chemical triggers rather than electronic triggers. Fail-safes can include back-ups but the principle behind it is to avoid catastrophic failure and collateral damage. NASA uses a tertiary fail-secure avioncs but the pilot will always be the best flight computer.

Claiming that forcefield-based thrust vectoring would be an unreliable technology doesn't really pass muster - it's akin to saying that the military shouldn't use thrust reversers in aircraft that are being vitally held together by far more fragile metallic constructs.

I don't think so. It's nothing alike. The trust deflectors on air craft are not going to suddenly disappear from the engine when non operational. Aircraft tend to have a number of ways of deceleration, brakes, flaps and some have reverse trust. The shuttle uses an air-brake as well.

^ Besides, if the impulse engines have their own dedicated exhaust deflectors (say, a forcefield generated by the impulse deflection crystal) then it would be an integral part of the engines themselves with a lot of different backups and failure modes specific to engine operations.

If that's were true it would have been inoperable in the Mutara Nebula. And like I said before we clearly see Enterprise reversing thrust away from the Reliant.

 

[Timo]

What makes you think thrust reverser forcefields would be lost when power is lost? We know for a fact that when the ship "loses all power" (i.e. drive, weapons, something they call "life support", and most of internal lighting but not all), the forcefields that keep her alive and prevent spontaneous combustion are still up and running.

For all we know, some if not most forcefields are by their very nature permanent, akin to permanent magnets. It would take power to shut them down in that case.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Crazy Eddie]

But forcefields in Trek are a more reliable technology than, say, steel walls or doorstops. After all, if a forcefield as much as hiccuped at any point during a five-year mission, the Enterprise would be immediate space dust, because a forcefield is the only thing keeping the antimatter from exploding.

What we're really talking about is fail-secure and not fail-safe.
This is an engineering question. You have two options your operational viability, a powered option and a non powered option.

This isn't generally (or usually) true of space craft. Maneuvering power ALWAYS depends on the engines and reaction thrusters working properly. If you encounter something that causes your fuel lines to fail, then there goes your maneuvering power.

In the event of a failure of impulse thrust deflectors, RCS thrusters and emergency thrusters can always be deployed, while the impulse engines can provide uniform forward thrust (not so with a physical deflector, which can become jammed in an inconvenient position, as many naval commanders have learned the hard way). That seems pretty fail safe to me.

If that's were true it would have been inoperable in the Mutara Nebula.

We don't actually know why shields don't work in the nebula. The viewscreen doesn't either, and presumably these phenomenon are linked. But phasers and photon torpedoes appear to work just fine, as does warp drive. I don't think the problem is that forcefields can't be formed in the nebula, but that the static discharging and loads they have to bear means they won't offer anything but superficial protection against weapons fire. They would still be perfectly effective at deflecting impulse exhaust, however, and evidently are good enough to hold in atmosphere when Reliant takes a phaser strike tot he bridge.

 

[blssdwlf]

The scene in question:

KIRK: Full power acceleration from orbit, Mister Scott.
SCOTT [OC]: Full power, sir.
KIRK: Emergency warp at the earliest possible moment, Mister Sulu.
SULU: Standing by to warp, sir.

From that, it seemed all Scotty was confirming that the ship was at full power prior to going to warp. Doesn't really offer anything else other than the ship was ready to go to warp after leaving the planet.

That is just from the transcript and doesn't sound like you watched it. Watching it about one second after Scotty confirms, "Full power, sir" the acceleration sound fx come on.

I did see the episode.

Good! So, are there any TNG episodes that visually depict the ship zipping away from the planet at that rate of acceleration?

In fact, the acceleration sound is why I generally think TOS ships have a slightly slower acceleration than those of TNG ships (which don't really have any kind of acceleration sound at all).

I haven't finished watching your reference TNG episodes to comment on the lack of acceleration sound other than in "Relics" Scotty couldn't feel the ship.

Even still, it could easily just mean that Scotty was confirming that full power was available. But you don't know that for certain, do you? You're speculating just as much as I am. There's more than one way to look at the scene--it can be related to full power for impulse and warp--so it's a matter of how you choose to interpret that particular scene.

Does it matter if it is full power acceleration for impulse or warp? If it is for impulse, I have yet to see the same zipping away from planet acceleration in TNG. If the power is for warp then the Enterprise might be even faster accelerating at impulse.
Either way, the TOS Enterprise zipped away from Gothos faster than I've ever seen a ship zipping away from a planet as represented in TNG.

Which proves...what? That the Enterprise was speeding away from Gothos once it broke free of orbit? I could have told you that.

Of course, you can't tell me when in TNG the E-D did something as fast or as faster as depicted? All you're saying is you can hear something in TOS and you can't in TNG without any visual references.

Of course, you could have just--I dunno, picked any TNG episode as I said and see for yourself.

That's what I'm doing, seeing for myself

Nope, I'm talking about Star Trek in general, in particular the scenes in which we see ships said to be tens of thousands of kilometers apart, and yet they both are seen fitting nicely onscreen together. That's done for dramatic necessity and because it looks good. As far as it being visually accurate, that's something only a few fans worry about.

And I'm talking about specifically TOS (original FX) and TNG. Your general statement in this case does not apply to TOS and I'd be surprised if you find an episode that has ships tens of thousands kilometers apart and yet on the same screen together in TOS.

Actually, yes. Stating that "TOS warp speeds are significantly faster than TNG warp speeds" is no different than saying "TNG ships are faster than TOS ships," because we're both stating opinions based on the episodes. We could both come up with easy and plausible reasons for both claims to be valid, and yet there's no way to prove either as being true for every Trek episode.

That doesn't make any sense. You're using episodes' audio cues as your data point to argue why you think TNG impulse is faster than TOS. We can prove whether that audio cue occurs or not by listening to the episode. We can also prove whether there was any acceleration or action going on by watching the synchronized visuals and/or dialogue if available. I see no reason then that dialogue and visuals cannot be used as well and on the same footing as audio cues.

Just based on the episodes, TOS consistently depicted slowed warp travel while in system (~0.014 ly/day) while traveling between systems was consistently fast whenever mentioned in dialogue.

~880 ly/day "Breads and Circuses"
~1000 ly/day "Obsession"
~2000 ly/day "That Which Survives"

while in TNG the production appears to have changed so that warp speed was about the same as going between stars as well as in-system travel near stars but slowed significantly down.

~2.3 ly/day @W9 "Bloodlines"

and include Voyager dialogue...

~0.27 ly/day @W4 "Resolutions"
~2.5 ly/day "Caretaker"
~4.4 ly/day "Friendship One"
~18 ly/day "Maneuvers"
~58 ly/day @W9.9 "The 37's"

If you had said, the E-D looks better with a third warp engine, I'd still ask which episode was that if I wasn't familiar with it

To which I would have replied simply "the one with the alternate future."

And I would reply, "which alternate future or which episode?"

 

[C.E. Evans]

^^^
You've got way too much free time. Especially given that it doesn't really change anything.

 

[Saquist]

What makes you think thrust reverser forcefields would be lost when power is lost? We know for a fact that when the ship "loses all power" (i.e. drive, weapons, something they call "life support", and most of internal lighting but not all), the forcefields that keep her alive and prevent spontaneous combustion are still up and running.

For all we know, some if not most forcefields are by their very nature permanent, akin to permanent magnets. It would take power to shut them down in that case.

Timo Saloniemi

According to Kira when main power is out so are the shields.
The only thing fields that operate are emergency Force-fields for individual sections those operative on emergency and the Impulse engines wouldn't be considered and emergency system. And if life support and force-fields operate on EP that means EP is a deck by deck power supply. (or section by section like a submarine is)

And it makes sense that any impulse deflector would fail without main power.
Fusion generates incredibly hot by products and a typical unit is using 2 reactors. I doubt such a field could operate with out degrading without Main Power. Second it doesn't make an sense that impulse engines are Rockets wasting all that plasma in exhaust that could be power going to auxiliary power systems when main power goes down. It's a complete waste when warp fields can push starship at sublight like we see with the Phoenix in First Contact.

This isn't generally (or usually) true of space craft. Maneuvering power ALWAYS depends on the engines and reaction thrusters working properly. If you encounter something that causes your fuel lines to fail, then there goes your maneuvering power.

I don't understand the context of "This".

In the event of a failure of impulse thrust deflectors, RCS thrusters and emergency thrusters can always be deployed, while the impulse engines can provide uniform forward thrust (not so with a physical deflector, which can become jammed in an inconvenient position, as many naval commanders have learned the hard way). That seems pretty fail safe to me.

You mean fail-secure.
RCS thruster won't have the accerlation or speed of impulse. It's just not the same. Sure you're able to move but that's back up. That's like trying to change orbit in the space shuttle with thruster. If thruster could provide anywhere near that amount of power they wouldn't have used a single burst of impulse to clear the asteroid trap in Booby-trap.

If that's were true it would have been inoperable in the Mutara Nebula.

We don't actually know why shields don't work in the nebula. [/QUOTE]

They said it's all the static discharging gas.

The viewscreen doesn't either, and presumably these phenomenon are linked. But phasers and photon torpedoes appear to work just fine, as does warp drive. I don't think the problem is that forcefields can't be formed in the nebula, but that the static discharging and loads they have to bear means they won't offer anything but superficial protection against weapons fire.

We don't know that to be true.
Anyway when Khan tried the shields it showed a broken coverage. it looked like something like 85 percent of the arcs did not function.

They would still be perfectly effective at deflecting impulse exhaust, however, and evidently are good enough to hold in atmosphere when Reliant takes a phaser strike tot he bridge.

I suspect that has more to do with the phaser reaction with the hull. When the Enterprise got struck in the openning volly there was no explosive decompression. The phaser seemed to melt and disapate on the hull. On the other side of the hull there was flame or plasma. This seemed to be a brief effect as the phaser didn't concentrate in a certain area but rather traveled down the PTC on the Stardrive.