Impulse Drive: What do we know? (Non-canon speculation)

[blssdwlf]

I dunno about the delay in time as TOS was pretty spritely when a request is given for high acceleration*.

In "Tomorrow Is Yesterday" no specific departure speed is given so she departed in a leisurely fashion and got up to ~0.03c in 4 seconds.

But in "The Squire of Gothos" when Kirk orders "maximum acceleration", they bolted up to ~0.28c in about 4 seconds which is might fast, IMHO.

I'd imagine the TMP reverse-angle scene would yield similar acceleration levels.

*Although I do believe that in TOS, impulse and warp efficiency drops off as they get closer to planets and stars.

 

[T'Girl]

the humming sound of accelerating and decelerating engines was the same for both warp and impulse

In the novels of William Shatner, he put forward the idea that the sound you're referring to is the inertial damper field generators increasing and decreasing, and the sound has nothing directly to do with the different engines. That's why you can hear the sound on the bridge.

We also know [snip] and are capable of reversing the ships direction without directed exhaust

Franz Joseph's blue prints and tech manuals say that the thrust can be vectored using the ship's shields and this is why the different ships do not need to turn around to decelerate or change direction.

In TWOK, the Enterprise moves up behind the Reliant travailing top side first and brake to a stop relative behind her with the Enterprise's impulse engines pointing off to the side, thrust vectoring by shields anyone?

In TMP they are capable of near light speed.
In TNG they aren't not capable of near light speed

In TOS, specifically WNMHGB, the dialog strongly implies that the impulse engines can move the ship at lower FTL than the main engines, but still FTL. The closest "edge" of the galaxy would be the top of the Orion arm's "thin disc." About 1,200 light years from Earth. Kirk seemed to believe that the ship would be capable of reaching a destination in "years," not centuries.

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My personal take is that the impulse engines are a "baby warp drive," fusion powered, lower top speed than the main drive, but more economical to operate than the main drive at those lower speeds. It's a simpler mechanism that the mains and as a consequence more robust, so harder to damage and disable.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I dunno about the delay in time as TOS was pretty spritely when a request is given for high acceleration.

The comparison was between high acceleration in TOS and TNG.

But one-quarter impulse must not be that incredibly fast anyway. The Excelsior was chasing the Enterprise at one-quarter impulse--while inside Spacedock--and it seemed to be a fairly leisurely chase. So either one-quarter impulse is nowhere near lightspeed, or Spacedock is really really big...

 

[Ronald Held]

Hmm the sound of inertial dampers... Sounds good.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

^ One quarter impulse is probably a thrust setting, not a measure of speed. Sort of like "first gear" in a manual transmission car. A captain would order one quarter impulse when he wants a lot of fine control and doesn't want the ship to move quickly in response to the helmsman's actions; that'll give the Captain extra time to order a different maneuver if he sees something is going wrong. But ultimately, the actual nature of the maneuvers used is up to the helmsman; he can move the ship at 30m/s or 300m/s, but at one quarter impulse he has to do it SLOWLY.

Enterprise went to full impulse power as soon as they left space dock, which meant Kirk wasn't worried about possible collisions at this point. That would be the more technical version of "Mister Sulu, you may... indulge yourself."

 

[C.E. Evans]

^ One quarter impulse is probably a thrust setting, not a measure of speed.

I used to say that warp factors were a measurement of "horsepower" more than of speed and that actual velocities were dependent on local conditions like subspace density (you could be many times faster at Warp 4 "here" than over "there").

 

[Crazy Eddie]

^ Hell, I STILL say that in most cases.

Though lately I've been toying with the idea of warp drive as acceleration as well. Not so much for any canon reason (the show HARDLY bears this out) but because it suddenly occurred to me that in the absence of a universal reference frame it makes no sense for a space warp to automatically produce any fixed velocity, only a constant change in velocity much like a gravity field. In that sense, you might express a warp scale in which each "factor" is an exponent in the G-force artificially imparted on the ship; Warp 1 is 1^1 gravities, warp 2 is 1^2 gravities, warp 3 is 1^3 gravities, etc. At Warp 9--1^9 gravities--it would mean your ship is accelerating at 843,000km/s^2; you could therefore accelerate to 1000 times the speed of light just by holding warp nine for a few minutes, and reach even higher velocities by accelerating longer.

But I digress... just an idea I'm toying with. The Trekiverse will probably never work this way.

 

[blssdwlf]

I dunno about the delay in time as TOS was pretty spritely when a request is given for high acceleration.

The comparison was between high acceleration in TOS and TNG.

i'm not aware of any comparable tng sublight performance. any particular episode?

 

[C.E. Evans]

I dunno about the delay in time as TOS was pretty spritely when a request is given for high acceleration.

The comparison was between high acceleration in TOS and TNG.

i'm not aware of any comparable tng sublight performance. any particular episode?

You don't think that the TNG ships go to impulse quicker? They seem to jump instantly to whatever impulse speed is given by Picard rather than accelerate towards them in Kirk's day...

 

[blssdwlf]

You don't think that the TNG ships go to impulse quicker? They seem to jump instantly to whatever impulse speed is given by Picard rather than accelerate towards them in Kirk's day...

Hard to say - I've never noticed anything about TNG impulse being quicker than TOS impulse. There's even a line in "Relics" where Geordi suggests that the Jenolan could run rings around the E-D at impulse (although he was saying that to make Scotty feel better... but who knows?)

 

[C.E. Evans]

You don't think that the TNG ships go to impulse quicker? They seem to jump instantly to whatever impulse speed is given by Picard rather than accelerate towards them in Kirk's day...

Hard to say - I've never noticed anything about TNG impulse being quicker than TOS impulse.

See, that's it. Picard gives the order for impulse speed, the conn says "aye," and that's it. No real sense of acceleration like it was with Kirk's ship. I would argue that that the acceleration time for 24th-Century ships to get up to speed is quicker than those of 23rd-Century ships.

There's even a line in "Relics" where Geordi suggests that the Jenolan could run rings around the E-D at impulse (although he was saying that to make Scotty feel better... but who knows?)

I would think being a smaller, more nimble ship, the Jenolan definitely should run rings around the Enterprise-D at impulse (but probably get creamed in a flat-out drag race, IMO).

 

[blssdwlf]

You don't think that the TNG ships go to impulse quicker? They seem to jump instantly to whatever impulse speed is given by Picard rather than accelerate towards them in Kirk's day...

Hard to say - I've never noticed anything about TNG impulse being quicker than TOS impulse.

See, that's it. Picard gives the order for impulse speed, the conn says "aye," and that's it. No real sense of acceleration like it was with Kirk's ship. I would argue that that the acceleration time for 24th-Century ships to get up to speed is quicker than those of 23rd-Century ships.

That's an interesting argument but it could also be that the no real sense of acceleration for Picard's ship was due to very quiet systems and better inertial dampeners.

I'd be more interested in finding any scenes in TNG where there is a measurable movement/acceleration between the E-D and a "stationary" object like a planet.

There's even a line in "Relics" where Geordi suggests that the Jenolan could run rings around the E-D at impulse (although he was saying that to make Scotty feel better... but who knows?)

I would think being a smaller, more nimble ship, the Jenolan definitely should run rings around the Enterprise-D at impulse (but probably get creamed in a flat-out drag race, IMO).

Then again, the Jenolan isn't that much smaller than the Enterprise

Are there any examples of the E-D pulling maximum sublight acceleration?

 

[Saquist]

Franz Joseph's blue prints and tech manuals say that the thrust can be vectored using the ship's shields and this is why the different ships do not need to turn around to decelerate or change direction.

Problem is this.
That's not a proper fail-safe for a primary function.
In design, especially military design, merely use alternate methods other than the tried and true unless there is a distinct advantage that counters or outweighs the disadvantages.

So what happens if you lose main power or take battle damage? How many things have interrupted shield functions in Trek? Shield thrust vectoring is an acceptable alternative but not a method one would like to rely on.

In TWOK, the Enterprise moves up behind the Reliant travailing top side first and brake to a stop relative behind her with the Enterprise's impulse engines pointing off to the side, thrust vectoring by shields anyone?

Yet we're told that shields would not be opperational within the nebula and we definitely see ENTERPRISE reverseing engines to back away from the Reliant before she blows up at the same crippling speed of 1/4 impulse that she had been limited to.

It seems to me the Tech manuals are fabricating theorums but they really don't fit what we've seen.

In TOS, specifically WNMHGB, the dialog strongly implies that the impulse engines can move the ship at lower FTL than the main engines, but still FTL. The closest "edge" of the galaxy would be the top of the Orion arm's "thin disc." About 1,200 light years from Earth. Kirk seemed to believe that the ship would be capable of reaching a destination in "years," not centuries.

INDEED.
Bashir makes a similar statement DS9 when the Dominion Attack ship they've used to infiltrate enemy lines sustains damage to it's warp engines.

That's pretty interesting....

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My personal take is that the impulse engines are a "baby warp drive," fusion powered, lower top speed than the main drive, but more economical to operate than the main drive at those lower speeds. It's a simpler mechanism that the mains and as a consequence more robust, so harder to damage and disable.[/QUOTE]

My thoughts exactly as too what they should be.
Whether the evidence of canon bears that out is another question entirely.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Hard to say - I've never noticed anything about TNG impulse being quicker than TOS impulse.

See, that's it. Picard gives the order for impulse speed, the conn says "aye," and that's it. No real sense of acceleration like it was with Kirk's ship. I would argue that that the acceleration time for 24th-Century ships to get up to speed is quicker than those of 23rd-Century ships.

That's an interesting argument but it could also be that the no real sense of acceleration for Picard's ship was due to very quiet systems and better inertial dampeners.

But then once again we can also say that's because the acceleration time is much quicker, so that falls under the category of what stance you want to take.

I'd be more interested in finding any scenes in TNG where there is a measurable movement/acceleration between the E-D and a "stationary" object like a planet.

You probably could take any scene in which the Enterprise is seen going to impulse from a planet. But it'd be kind of pointless, really.

There's even a line in "Relics" where Geordi suggests that the Jenolan could run rings around the E-D at impulse (although he was saying that to make Scotty feel better... but who knows?)

I would think being a smaller, more nimble ship, the Jenolan definitely should run rings around the Enterprise-D at impulse (but probably get creamed in a flat-out drag race, IMO).

Then again, the Jenolan isn't that much smaller than the Enterprise

Huh? It was tiny compared to the Enterprise-D.

Are there any examples of the E-D pulling maximum sublight acceleration?

Yeah, whenever an order is given to go to full impulse. But then it can be argued that full impulse isn't maximum sublight though.

 

[blssdwlf]

But then once again we can also say that's because the acceleration time is much quicker, so that falls under the category of what stance you want to take.

Right - that is purely subjective. How could you "prove" that the acceleration time is much quicker?

You probably could take any scene in which the Enterprise is seen going to impulse from a planet. But it'd be kind of pointless, really.

Pointless for you, perhaps. In TOS there are at least a couple of scenes where impulse acceleration can be guesstimated. As far as TNG though, I'm not as familiar but from what I've seen it appears the same impulse capability or slower.

Then again, the Jenolan isn't that much smaller than the Enterprise

Huh? It was tiny compared to the Enterprise-D.

Not the D, I meant the original Enterprise (no D, A, B, or C )

Are there any examples of the E-D pulling maximum sublight acceleration?

Yeah, whenever an order is given to go to full impulse. But then it can be argued that full impulse isn't maximum sublight though.

So basically there are no external shots corroborating going immediately to maximum impulse acceleration in TNG? Something that can be calculated?

 

[Santaman]

Jenolan is a pretty large ship, actually its internal volume is a heck of a lot larger then that of the refit Connie, its a little shorter but by all means not a tiny ship.

 

[C.E. Evans]

But then once again we can also say that's because the acceleration time is much quicker, so that falls under the category of what stance you want to take.

Right - that is purely subjective. How could you "prove" that the acceleration time is much quicker?

It's also applies to trying to prove the acceleration time is not quicker. You can't. You can only go by what it looks like to you.

You probably could take any scene in which the Enterprise is seen going to impulse from a planet. But it'd be kind of pointless, really.

Pointless for you, perhaps. In TOS there are at least a couple of scenes where impulse acceleration can be guesstimated.

I meant pointless in the sense that there are most likely times when things are either slowed down or speeded up for dramatic effect. That it is, the acceleration time is subject to dramatic necessity and varies depending on the story. It's doubtful that the VFX teams of any particular incarnation of Trek actually sat down with a calculator to figure out how fast the ship should be moving on camera.

As far as TNG though, I'm not as familiar but from what I've seen it appears the same impulse capability or slower.

Yeah, it depends on how you look at it. You can have arguments both for and against it and both would be valid.

Then again, the Jenolan isn't that much smaller than the Enterprise

Huh? It was tiny compared to the Enterprise-D.

Not the D, I meant the original Enterprise (no D, A, B, or C )

Oh, yeah. Not much smaller than the original.

Are there any examples of the E-D pulling maximum sublight acceleration?

Yeah, whenever an order is given to go to full impulse. But then it can be argued that full impulse isn't maximum sublight though.

So basically there are no external shots corroborating going immediately to maximum impulse acceleration in TNG? Something that can be calculated?

No more so than you can you corroborate a consistency in acceleration throughout all of Trek. You can probably calculate accelerations in any given episode, but then toss that math out for the next episode which might have the ship going slower or faster at the same velocity.

You got to go with what you think, because there wouldn't be a right or wrong answer (which naturally makes discussions about the subject sometimes tricky). I'm more inclined to think that the ships in TNG are faster than those in TOS because of advances in technology over 100 years, but you could easily say they're actually the same or even slower from onscreen material alone...

 

[blssdwlf]

No more so than you can you corroborate a consistency in acceleration throughout all of Trek. You can probably calculate accelerations in any given episode, but then toss that math out for the next episode which might have the ship going slower or faster at the same velocity.

You got to go with what you think, because there wouldn't be a right or wrong answer (which naturally makes discussions about the subject sometimes tricky). I'm more inclined to think that the ships in TNG are faster than those in TOS because of advances in technology over 100 years, but you could easily say they're actually the same or even slower from onscreen material alone...

Actually after watching all of the TOS original FX episodes for my Thermianish project I would say that TOS was very consistent in their presentation (due to only having 3 seasons ). For TNG acceleration, I only recall a lumbering E-D that occasionally makes fast banking turns but with no obvious reference points.

What I can also say is that TOS-universe warp speeds is significantly faster than TNG-universe warp speeds based on the episodes themselves which also adds to my thinking that TNG impulse acceleration were about the same or slower than TOS

Perhaps someone else might have a good example of TNG sublight acceleration?

 

[C.E. Evans]

No more so than you can you corroborate a consistency in acceleration throughout all of Trek. You can probably calculate accelerations in any given episode, but then toss that math out for the next episode which might have the ship going slower or faster at the same velocity.

You got to go with what you think, because there wouldn't be a right or wrong answer (which naturally makes discussions about the subject sometimes tricky). I'm more inclined to think that the ships in TNG are faster than those in TOS because of advances in technology over 100 years, but you could easily say they're actually the same or even slower from onscreen material alone...

Actually after watching all of the TOS original FX episodes for my Thermianish project I would say that TOS was very consistent in their presentation (due to only having 3 seasons ).

I would say the same thing about TNG during its 7 seasons. Stock footage and reused VFX components tend to do that.

For TNG acceleration, I only recall a lumbering E-D that occasionally makes fast banking turns but with no obvious reference points.

Pretty much the same case for the original Enterprise in that regard. Ship moved at the speed of plot regardless if it was at warp or impulse.

What I can also say is that TOS-universe warp speeds is significantly faster than TNG-universe warp speeds based on the episodes themselves which also adds to my thinking that TNG impulse acceleration were about the same or slower than TOS

Basically, it falls down to an opinion or how one chooses to perceive how things are.

Perhaps someone else might have a good example of TNG sublight acceleration?

Doubtful. Not just for TNG, but for any of the Trek shows, really. I don't think you'll find that many people who sat down and figured out the maths for how fast the ship moved at impulse in a particular episode. I'm sure they're out there, though, but I think it's an excercise in futility, especially if you factor in how time and distance may be compressed or decompressed onscreen for dramatic purposes...

 

[blssdwlf]

Actually after watching all of the TOS original FX episodes for my Thermianish project I would say that TOS was very consistent in their presentation (due to only having 3 seasons ).

I would say the same thing about TNG during its 7 seasons. Stock footage and reused VFX components tend to do that.

I've pointed out where in TOS that Max Acceleration was called out for impulse in previous post. If you'd like to point out anything specific in TNG, that'd be great

Pretty much the same case for the original Enterprise in that regard. Ship moved at the speed of plot regardless if it was at warp or impulse.

Hey, as long as the speed of plot was re-used from episode to episode in the same manner... Say, which TOS episodes did the speed of the ship plot seem to be slower than TNG speeds?

What I can also say is that TOS-universe warp speeds is significantly faster than TNG-universe warp speeds based on the episodes themselves which also adds to my thinking that TNG impulse acceleration were about the same or slower than TOS

Basically, it falls down to an opinion or how one chooses to perceive how things are.

Then we'll just have to agree to disagree You believe TNG has faster impulse acceleration times and I do not and that's that

..if you factor in how time and distance may be compressed or decompressed onscreen for dramatic purposes...

Unless you find a single, continuous shot But that doesn't matter in this case as you're arguing based on whether something feels fast or not which as you have said, is purely one's opinion and not based on any evidence.