I, Borg and Descent

[Nerys Ghemor]

This discussion is VERY off-topic, as far as the DS9 v. VOY stuff. Could that PLEASE be taken somewhere else?

VOY's handling of the Borg is on-topic, but there's a lot of extraneous stuff being dragged in. We really don't need all threads being dragged down this same beaten path.

 

[RyuRoots]

This discussion is VERY off-topic, as far as the DS9 v. VOY stuff. Could that PLEASE be taken somewhere else?

VOY's handling of the Borg is on-topic, but there's a lot of extraneous stuff being dragged in. We really don't need all threads being dragged down this same beaten path.

This is why I call you an attention whore, Anwar. You want to go on about this? Go to the VOY forum and ask and stop derailing TNG and DS9 threads. This is a Borg thread.

 

[Anwar]

And when someone mentioned the Borg in VOY, I responded to that. So this is on-topic to an extent.

But I'll stop.

 

[RyuRoots]

And when someone mentioned the Borg in VOY, I responded to that. So this is on-topic to an extent.

But I'll stop.

Only to an extent. But I do appreciate it.

So! Back to the matter at hand, I also think that the Hugh story and the Lore story didn't mesh well together and I think it would've been better to simply have Descent explore the ramifications of Picard's actions in I, Borg. I mean, aside from Lore, the only times we saw evil twins were in the mirror universe and Nemesis. And those worked out SO well.

 

[Anwar]

The Mirrorverse works due to the camp factor. Play it totally straight and it doesn't work.

Otherwise...well maybe Descent would have worked out better as a Movie story instead. There they would have a better budget and time to work the story out better.

I mean, the idea of renegade sentient Borg individuals is a pretty cool one when you get down to it.

 

[RyuRoots]

The Mirrorverse works due to the camp factor. Play it totally straight and it doesn't work.

Otherwise...well maybe Descent would have worked out better as a Movie story instead. There they would have a better budget and time to work the story out better.

I mean, the idea of renegade sentient Borg individuals is a pretty cool one when you get down to it.

Hm, a movie about Hugh and those affected by him. That could be pretty cool, actually. Could've been a follow-up of sorts to FC, doing a kind of an arc like 2-3-4 did. See the collective Borg in one movie, and see what happens when you take that away in the next. Hm. INS seems that much worse now.

 

[Saito S]

This discussion is VERY off-topic, as far as the DS9 v. VOY stuff. Could that PLEASE be taken somewhere else?

VOY's handling of the Borg is on-topic, but there's a lot of extraneous stuff being dragged in. We really don't need all threads being dragged down this same beaten path.

I apologize for my part in dragging things off-topic.

Easily one of the worst eps of TNG's entire "good section" (seasons 3-7), and the worst of the two-parters.

I completely disagree.

Season seven wasn't part of the good section.

Well, allow me to clarify what I meant here... haha

S7 wasn't one of the best seasons, no. But, I define "good section" as "not seasons 1 and 2." Especially season 1, which just SUCKED and is easily the worst season of the show, IMO. S2 was better, in terms of actual writing, but still not great, and S2 also suffered from the same running problems as season 1: that the film quality, special effects, background music, uniforms, and overall presentation of the show was crap compared to seasons 3-7. To be fair, though, season 2 did have a few really great eps. Season 7 was definitely a mixed bag... it had a bunch of clunkers, but for me, there is no single ep of TNG beyond season 2 that is as bad as the likes of "Code of Honor", or "Justice", or "The Child." (Though "Man of the People" from S6 comes damn close). And season 7 also had what I consider to be some of the show's best eps, such as "Parallels", "The Pegasus," and (most especially) "Lower Decks."

And uh... technically, that's not on topic either.

The Mirrorverse works due to the camp factor. Play it totally straight and it doesn't work.

Otherwise...well maybe Descent would have worked out better as a Movie story instead. There they would have a better budget and time to work the story out better.

I mean, the idea of renegade sentient Borg individuals is a pretty cool one when you get down to it.

Hm, a movie about Hugh and those affected by him. That could be pretty cool, actually. Could've been a follow-up of sorts to FC, doing a kind of an arc like 2-3-4 did. See the collective Borg in one movie, and see what happens when you take that away in the next. Hm. INS seems that much worse now.

I do have to agree that the basic concept of renegade sentient Borg is a good one with a lot of potential, and the fact that they actually followed up with the Hugh story was good as well. But the execution... Blagh. And bringing Lore into it was a huge mistake. But this movie idea would actually be pretty interesting. Too bad we'll never know how it could have turned out...

 

[Holdfast]

Thank you very much indeed to the thread participants for stepping back from the brink of turning this into a totally off-topic thread. I think everyone understands that a little topic drift is natural and not unwelcome but this thread definitely went seriously into either VOY/DS9 territory rather than being about TNG/Descent.

I don't like interfering in the natural flow of discussion; one of the nice things about this subforum is that participants generally know where the line is, so thanks again for stepping away from the seriously non-TNG stuff.

 

[Hober Mallow]

There are some good episodes in season seven, but I actually prefer season one (gasp!) and two (double gasp!) I would aay season one and seven are comprable, with about the same number of good episodes, but season one gets the edge for me because there's a sense of wonder, energy, and excitement that isn't there in season seven. The sense I got from season seven at the time was, "Let's just get this over with and go to the movies."

 

[M-Red]

I, Borg was rather good and fit TNG very well.
Descent was a friggin joke.

this

 

[Greylock Crescent]

I always liked the philosophical questions that "I, Borg" posed ... even if you ultimately disagree with the answers, the episode was, at least, a thoughtful one. I always saw the "Descent" episodes as a cheap dramatical ploy, not at all worthy of a two-part, season-ending cliffhanger ... let alone a single-episode story.

 

[childofdarkness]

I, Borg had some great character moments and was an interesting exploration of the weaknesses inherent in the Collective. However, as an episode, it was a little too warm and fuzzy for me. Hugh came around as a goofy human a little too quickly and did not in fact seem all that different from some of the socially challenged individuals one often finds wandering around at SF cons. (In case any are reading this, please don't take it personally - I love you all, and I am glad you have escaped the embrace of the Collective.)

 

[I am not Spock]

I Borg was pretty good. Descent was the start of the defanging of the Borg. FC, though very enjoyable, made a mistake in coming up with the Queen. VOY had to clean up the mess left by FC, so it wasn't entirely their fault. Scorpion was the best Borg episode since BOBW, in my opinion.

 

[RyuRoots]

I Borg was pretty good. Descent was the start of the defanging of the Borg. FC, though very enjoyable, made a mistake in coming up with the Queen. VOY had to clean up the mess left by FC, so it wasn't entirely their fault. Scorpion was the best Borg episode since BOBW, in my opinion.

I disagree. Lore's rogue Borg weren't part of the collective, so they did nothing to "de-fang" the Borg. And FC didn't leave a mess; it introduced and offed the queen in one motion. It would not be at all difficult at all to find an explanation for why the Queen survived BOBW but not FC.

I do agree that Scorpion was awesome, though. One of those rare VOY eps that really knocked it out of the park.

 

[M-Red]

Descent was bad because it just seemed so contrived. Data's twin brother leading a Borg faction.....just came off as cheesey.


I, Borg could have been a two-parter really....that could have lessened some of the above complaints about Hugh being a little hokey....which he probably was due to the time constraints of the narrative. But overall, I, Borg was a satisfying episode.

Scorpion was the best Borg episode since BOBW, in my opinion.

agree with this. Scorpion was a fantastic episode

 

[Unicron]

Actually, I thought having Lore finding Hugh's group and manipulating Data was a good idea. It wound up being executed in a cheesy way.

 

[CoveTom]

^ The idea of Lore using emotion to manipulate Data seems good fodder for a story and seems consistent with his character. But while the idea of him using the Borg might make logical sense on paper, in practice I think it comes across as too gimmicky and cartoony. Kind of like there should be a Superfriends promo for the episode.

And it wasn't helped by the way in which it was executed. That cliffhanger, which I've mentioned before, is to me one of the most cringeworthy moments I've ever seen on television. "The Sons of Soongh have joined together. And together we will destroy the Federation." Ugh. Gene Hackman's Lex Luthor would have thought that line was too over the top.